anti-sub capability advancement of PLAN.

Originally Posted by lilzz

how's PLAN's anti-sub capability advancement coming along? I read recently one of the neighboring countries is buying 6 Kilo subs to counter the PLAN.
Should PLAN build more those nuke hunter subs like 093 to kill those kilos? or they waiting for a more advanced version such as the 095?

The 054A frigate has some tracking and attacking sonars, would they be sufficient against the kilos?

I would think that neighboring country is using the subs to counter PLAN's aircraft carrier simliar to PLAN's doctrine of using the sub against USN carrier.

what about anti-torpedo interceptors? is there such development?

Iv'e come across negative comments about Chinese anti sub warefare capability. It all goes back to the lack of blue water patrols over the years to gather info on acoustic sigs and such like.

PLAN owns some kilo itself. It can use kilo as test target and gather sig all it wants.

obviously you are refering to Vietnamese navy, right ?

PLAN doesn't need to worry about it .... by the time vietnamese navy has received the kilos, PLAN will be much much stronger than now ... so it is not a threat at all

anyway it is only a news .. nothing has been signed yet ... honestly I don't think vietnamese can afford buying and maintaining 6 kilos ... and vietnamese economy is in bad shape and need china to survive

But going back to ASW capabilities of the PLAN. They are extremely weak.

Apparently they don't have enough ASW helicopters to fill their ships. Z-9C's and Kamovs. I'm not even sure if the Z-9C is a good enough ASW platform. Sinodefence seems to be skeptical.

What the PLAN needs is a bigger chopper with more room. I'd like to see one with a belly mounted radar. Also on the table are a land based ASW like the P-3, and towed sonar arrays for all ships which can carry them as well as submarines. A form of SURTASS will be useful down the line too.

I'm not sure how effective 6 kilo's will be, and being operated by the vietamnese navy... Let's just say we don't know how good their sub skills are.

Originally Posted by lilzz

PLAN owns some kilo itself. It can use kilo as test target and gather sig all it wants.

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that each sub's sig was diff

Obviously, PLAN is trying to cover its weakness in anti-sub capabilites by deploying more submarine. I think for PLAN submarine doctrine, its more concern on attack than defense.

As for Vietnanese sub, it is not that a strong area of concern. PLAN is more worry on Japan, South Korea and USN submarine fleet.

The weakness of PLAN anti-submarine capabilites maybe also one of the strong deterent for PLAN to possess aircraft carrier. That is why it drag so long until now they consider to own one carrier,

doesnt matter how the PLAN tries to cover its weakness, its bound to be exposed when China deploys its carrier fleet (if they ever plan to build one)

but yeah i think the subs are simply meant to enable China to inflict max damage on the US carrier fleet in the pacific. its got very lil to do with anti-sub warfare. even if China does put more focus on anti-sub techniques now, i think its main intention would be to enhance the evasion techniques of its sub forces

subs basically can fire either torpedo or anti-ship missile.
Now if the carrier field effective anti-missile and anti-torpedo defense, who care if it's weak at detection or ASW.

Once sub fired, it will expose itself.
PLAN has the SEARAM alike and close in weapons against anti ship missle, what about torpedo defense? I think they can field air-launched ultra high speed torpedo interceptor against the torpedo.

Originally Posted by lilzz

subs basically can fire either torpedo or anti-ship missile.
Now if the carrier field effective anti-missile and anti-torpedo defense, who care if it's weak at detection or ASW.

Once sub fired, it will expose itself.
PLAN has the SEARAM alike and close in weapons against anti ship missle, what about torpedo defense? I think they can field air-launched ultra high speed torpedo interceptor against the torpedo.

well whats an effective anti-torpedo, anti missile system? the best way to defend a carrier is to detect and destroy hostile aircraft and subs before they can launch an attack

it's kind of pointless to use Vietnamese as the main threat. Those 6 subs really don't both any kind of problem to PLAN. It's a total waste of money for Vietnam. Let's just say that with all of their experience operating Kilo subs, they should know as well as anyone on how to hunt Kilos. And the issue with Chinese ASW is more blue water than green water. If you want to think about threat, think about Oyashio subs and Collins subs as the main conventional threats to China.

Originally Posted by tphuang

it's kind of pointless to use Vietnamese as the main threat. Those 6 subs really don't both any kind of problem to PLAN. It's a total waste of money for Vietnam. Let's just say that with all of their experience operating Kilo subs, they should know as well as anyone on how to hunt Kilos. And the issue with Chinese ASW is more blue water than green water. If you want to think about threat, think about Oyashio subs and Collins subs as the main conventional threats to China.

I will not say it's a waste of money for Vietnamese Navy to acquire Submarine. Remember Many other countries still have their claim on Spratly Island like Malaysia, Brunei, Philippines and Indonesia...

6 Kilo against this countries is a massive threat and may inflict decisive damage to them.I believe Vietnam Navy never pin any hope in wnnning naval battle against PLAN. The 1988 naval battle in Spratly Island clearly demonstrate that. Not to mention we are now at 2009, PLAN modernisation pace is much faster than Vietnam Navy.

Their Kilo is more for using against weaker countries.

Originally Posted by Lion

I will not say it's a waste of money for Vietnamese Navy to acquire Submarine. Remember Many other countries still have their claim on Spratly Island like Malaysia, Brunei, Philippines and Indonesia...

6 Kilo against this countries is a massive threat and may inflict decisive damage to them.I believe Vietnam Navy never pin any hope in wnnning naval battle against PLAN. The 1988 naval battle in Spratly Island clearly demonstrate that. Not to mention we are now at 2009, PLAN modernisation pace is much faster than Vietnam Navy.

Their Kilo is more for using against weaker countries.

On the contrary, I think those subs are mainly targeted for the PLAN. Right now is deep recession, Vietnam still a poor country with annual GDP around 80 billion is forking out $1.8billion for 6 kilos, to me, that's a desperate move.
That's their only hope, those subs. Hey, they(government) publicly says they want to take Paracel island back(Even appointed a mayor for that island), which China is currently occupying.

To me, the chance of upcoming naval conflict between China & Vietnam is much >> than CHina & US.

Originally Posted by lilzz

On the contrary, I think those subs are mainly targeted for the PLAN. Right now is deep recession, Vietnam still a poor country with annual GDP around 80 billion is forking out $1.8billion for 6 kilos, to me, that's a desperate move.
That's their only hope, those subs. Hey, they(government) publicly says they want to take Paracel island back(Even appointed a mayor for that island), which China is currently occupying.

To me, the chance of upcoming naval conflict between China & Vietnam is much >> than CHina & US.

I will say 6 kilo against PLAN is sucide. Plus starting a naval war with PLAN for spratly will give China a great opportunity to capture all Vietnam remaining spratly island. Vietnam have their lesson learn from 1988 incident. I doubt they will do it again.

The politician can say whatever they want to win over mass support. End of the day, its the action counts!

PLAN probably has one of the worst anti-sub capability out of all major powers, since China has neither big helipcopters or good sonars, which both are heavily embargoed.