SinoDefence Forum

tphuang

Look, I think my previous comments maybe too harsh. I'm not saying 6 Kilos for Vietnam is not going to be helpful, but I think it's a really bad investment. You are paying $300 million per Kilo. China only paid $200 million each and they had at the time the best exported version of kilos and then got a few of them refitted at their own shipyard. With the amount of work they've done with kilos and operational experience with it, they know the sub inside and out. If you think about all of the subs out there that Vietnam could've bought like Amur, U214, Scorpene, is it really worth spending that much on such an outdated sub? btw, it's the same case with Venezuela, although they actually had no choice other than taking what the Russians offered.

lilzz

what's preventing them having good sonars? If they can build good radar they should be able to build good sonar.

what about hunter sub 093?

lilzz

outdated? I would think majority of PLAN's diesel subs like the songs are at the same level as the kilos. Their more advanced Yuans are very limited in numbers.

Quickie

It's often heard that the best defence against a submarine is another submarine. With over 60 attack submarines, what is with this lack of ASW capability? How capable are China's attack submarines? Which is more effective? A towed array sonar or the sonar of an attack submarine?

pugachev_diver

Sonar technology is the most sensitive thing there is, just under the sensitivity of stealth technology. no western countries would transfer it to china, neither would the eastern bloc due to its sensitivity

Pointblank

Not only that, Russian sonar's aren't as good as Western ones; in particular American, French, and British sonar's. Usually, the Russians are at least 10-20 years behind the West in technology in a few certain areas, and they try to compensate in other areas (such as power or metallurgy).

HKSDU

6 Kilo to counter PLAN that's a rash decision. Since China has had Kilo in service since 1995, using them in exercise and operations. All the research on Kilo acoustic signatures are sure to be done with the time of nearly a decade worth of Kilo operation with PLAN. Even if it was a submarine warfare in current situations the PLAN doesn't need to wait for a future force to strengthen its current one. Its current submarine force of Kilo alone totaling 12 is more then enough to counter Vietnam possible Kilo force of 6.

Very bold statement. Extremely weak ASW in what manner? Ship-Sub, Air-Sub or Sub-Sub? Though its Air-Sub isn't in large quantities the Ka-28 Helix-A is capable ASW heli. Z-9C already only has a light payload to begin with, and short loiter duration. Its more of a stopgap, until China can acquire a decent heli platform to work on. Most probably waiting until the Z-15 is in production.

You don't need SSN to counter SSK. Since SSK in shallow and coastal matters are much more capable and deadly then an SSN in same situation. It's a waste to send an SSN to do an SSK work when you got some anyway. PLAN doesnt need to wait for future submarines to counter these 6 Kilo, its current force is more then capable. They have equal if not better submarines in their inventory, and quantity is more. With 12 Kilo, 16 039G, 2 039A/B (+2 soon). Remember China has more experience in operating Kilo then Vietnam Navy does.

HKSDU

Sonar and Radar are completely different, that's such an amateur statement. Sonar uses sound propagation, while Radar uses electromagnetic waves. Radar waves in the air have less density to disperse making it easier to intercept. While sonar sound propagation is difficult cause the sound dissipates at a higher rate, due to the density of the water, their are more variables in the water to deal with then the air. Radar are easier, then Sonars in my personal thinking. Remember that Sonar were used before the introduction of Radar. Radar gives a much longer detection range then Sonars.

Bltizo

Extremely weak, a bit exaggerated, but for the great powers of the world China is probably the worst off.

What you've said is pretty much the reasons for China having a weak ASW capability (relative to other great powers). I would have included long range fixed wing ASW assets too (P-3 like planes).

PS: ????-???-??????????1?????? Can anyone identify this ship? It's apparently a "research ship", but is there any equipment on it that looks like sonar or can be used for surveillance uses?

antiterror13

I highly doubt vietnamese would buy 6 kilos for $1.8 billions .. it would be economic suicidal ... vietnamese economic is really in bad shape, much worse than chinese

and spending $1.8 billions for vietnamese is like spending $80 billions for chinese (in term of % of gdp) ... imagine that

Like I said before it is only a plan, it won't happen

lilzz

For example, latest radar, AESA needs MMICs which CHina is working on.
As for Sonar, what sort of tech barrier is China facing semiconductor components wise.

I suspect Sonar still using the old process and tech.

lilzz

It's not a plan or rumor, it's happening now.


MOSCOW - RUSSIA will build six submarines for the Vietnamese navy, the daily Kommersant reported on Monday.

The St Petersburg naval dockyard Admiralteyskye verfi and Vietnam will shortly sign the contract, worth 1.8 billion dollars, the report said, quoting sources close to Russian arms export agency Rosoboronexport.

It gave no time frame.

'Initially it was expected that the submarines would be bought by Venezuela, but Rosoboronexport refused to clinch the deal with that country, largely due to a recent meeting between Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and his American counterpart Barack Obama,' Kommersant said.

Mr Chavez, a ferocious foe of the United States under the George W. Bush presidency, showed signs of warming to Mr Obama during the Americas conference earlier this month, telling the new US president: 'I want to be your friend.' -- AFP

Russia to build Viet subs

szbd

Sonar is much harder than radar. The main problems are

1. sound is much slower, 340m/s, while electromagnetic wave is 300000000m/s
2. sound in water almost never travel in strait line, while electromagnetic wave in the air always travel in strait line.
3. The disturb of sound in water is much stronger than electromagnetic wave in the air.

Therefore, with a bad radar, you can often get something, but with even a good sonar, you often get nothing.

RedMercury

Detection using sonar is a prototypical machine learning problem; judging from the proportion of Chinese grad students working on such topics, the above claims of Chinese inferiority in sonar systems are wrong or will be wrong in the not too distant future.

King_Comm

Apparently, the military budget of Vietnam has been around 3 billion USD in the past few years, I honestly can't see how Vietnam is going to fork out 0.75% of its GDP for just 6 submarines.