Anti-Carrier Trump Card

lets count...
in about 3-5 years, china will have
12 kilo
10 song
2-4 yuan
2-4 93
1 92
3-5 91
1-2 94
and a endless # of mings and romeos which can be decoys or sonar pollution.

and a endless # of mings and romeos which can be decoys or sonar pollution.

Fact....>>>The USN has the acoustic signatures of all those subs and enough ablity,training, ships, helo's and P-3's to track them all. Period.

Originally Posted by bd popeye

and P-3's to track them all. Period.

We need to get the S-3s back on the carriers IMHO. They have longer legs than the helos and carry a lot more ordinance (buoys, torps, electronic gear, etc).

I second that. Right now, without proper replacement, US would be better off with those S3s. All those aircraft (planes and helos) can't be in the air the whole time, be that for long endurance flights with sonar detection or short hunting flights once a sub has been targeted. On average that will mean a CBG has around 10-12 helos to be used for ASW at one time, simultaneously. add two hunter subs and that's still not that awesome force to guarantee a large scale sub ambush would fail. (I guess i am saying asrock would be not as effective as subs/helos - so shoot me. ) That is partly why US would never send a lone carrier group to war w china, even if it could, objectively, help taiwanese. You look after your own butt first, right? With surface ship PLAN and PLAAF threat i'd say even a two CBGs force would not be sent. In my opinion US would wait till it can assemble a 4 CBG force with apropriate USAF cover from jap/guam for the first waves of attack. Does anyone know how much time would that take, from the moment of decision to do so? (which itself would be probably only after there's clear signs of imminent attack, not more than days/day before taiwan invasion)

Originally Posted by bd popeye

Fact....>>>The USN has the acoustic signatures of all those subs and enough ablity,training, ships, helo's and P-3's to track them all. Period.

thats exactly what the mings and romeos are for. decoy and sonar pollution, and to such asw assets away from the more advanced subs.

We need to get the S-3s back on the carriers IMHO. They have longer legs than the helos and carry a lot more ordinance (buoys, torps, electronic gear, etc).

Sorry Jeff. The USN has already started to decomission it's S-3B squadrons and is replacing their ASW mission with more SH-60's provided by 4 plane HSL detatchments on CV's. Don't forget P-3's are always on patrol. E-2C's extend the ablity of the CSG to find most anything.

thats exactly what the mings and romeos are for. decoy and sonar pollution, and to such asw assets away from the more advanced subs.

Keep thinking that. The USN constantly trains on sub hunting technics. If you only knew.

Does anyone know how much time would that take, from the moment of decision to do so? (which itself would be probably only after there's clear signs of imminent attack, not more than days/day before taiwan invasion)

Excellent question Totoro. The USAF has tactical assets deploying on a rotational basis to Guam. F-15's,B-1's B-52's & tankers. There are F-15's & F-16's in Okinawa, Japan and Korea. The USN has the Kitty Hawk strike group in Japan. There will always be one other CSG deployed in the Pacific or Indian Ocean . There will be one CSG preparing(in training) to deploy. And one more in a surge deploymnet status. The one in training and work ups is also in surge deployment status.

So I would say the USAF assest would be availabe in 48-72 hours. The Kitty Hawk CSG would move to the area immediatley and be on station within 72 hours of leaving Japan. Probaly sooner. The CSG on deployment would arrive within one week depending on where it was located when the crisis arose. As for the 2 CSG deploying from the west coast of the US it would take at least 10 days after deploying to get on station..

As some of you may know last year the USN deployed 7 CSG at once in an operation called Summer Pulse.

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/news/surge05.html

I am afraid it will turn into the sub-surface version of the Marinas Turkey Shoot if they try that...they will find the mings, the romeos, and the Kilos and Yuans.

Using several very capable escorts, ten or twenty ASW aicraft, and four to six very capable and advanced subs...the US Navy will clean the path of the carriers. If the PLAN subs are the path, they will be found by all the active sonar buoys, MAD, and electronic gear possesed by all of those assets.

If the diesel electrics are not right in that path, they will not have the speed to catch and target the carrier...and if they try they will make enough noise to be found by the escorts and aircraft along the sides and flanks of the carrier group.

I believe that is what popeye is talking about.

remote countrol mings and romeos?? its possible. the chinese have already made j-5 drones.

the klub is also a possibility for long range attack on a cvbg.

Originally Posted by MIGleader

remote countrol mings and romeos?? its possible. the chinese have already made j-5 drones.

the klub is also a possibility for long range attack on a cvbg.

That's intresting. They probaly would be controlled by a surface vessel that realy would not have to be that close. Actually the persons operating the sub could be shore based miles away. Interesting concept.

Originally Posted by MIGleader

remote countrol mings and romeos?? its possible. the chinese have already made j-5 drones.

the klub is also a possibility for long range attack on a cvbg.

do you realize how much it would cost to make the mings and romeos and control them by radio? how will they link the sonar to the ground/ship?? they are going to hit each other before some USN ship sinks them.
im thinking of something like a boey you can stick all around the sea, and when you activate them they makes acoustic signature of kilos, yuan, and songs; that way it will make it look like they got you surrounded; basically like big under speakers that blast the acoustic signature of subs

Originally Posted by swimmerXC

do you realize how much it would cost to make the mings and romeos and control them by radio? how will they link the sonar to the ground/ship?? they are going to hit each other before some USN ship sinks them.
im thinking of something like a boey you can stick all around the sea, and when you activate them they makes acoustic signature of kilos, yuan, and songs; that way it will make it look like they got you surrounded; basically like big under speakers that blast the acoustic signature of subs

Remote control subs are a fantasy. How do you control them when there are volumes of water between the sub and the control system?

Bouey decoy will not fool a US sub sonar man. They are not moving and constantly stay at a single depth in the water.
Each ship on the ocean has a very distinct sound and the US probably has a data base full of what every PLAN ship sounds like.

im not thinkging of turning them all before the ships arrive, more like when the real subs come in turn them on to distract teh sonarman for a couple of minutes

Submarines have weapons other than Torpedos and AShM's. You can use your submarine fleet to deploy anti-ship mines. The sea mines today are far more advanced than the old floating balls shaped contact type, with anti-sweep features, rockets, remote control/activation, etc.

Originally Posted by IDonT

Remote control subs are a fantasy. How do you control them when there are volumes of water between the sub and the control system?

Bouey decoy will not fool a US sub sonar man. They are not moving and constantly stay at a single depth in the water.
Each ship on the ocean has a very distinct sound and the US probably has a data base full of what every PLAN ship sounds like.

they probably have a kilo's sig, but not a yuans or songs.
a remote control ming is not impossible, all you need to do is steer it, not fore it or submerge it or anything complicated.