Anti-Carrier Trump Card

Originally Posted by H5N1

1. It accuses china of expanding its military

It is modernising, not expanding. US would like to see China still operating Mig-21s, old warships, 1950's tanks and aa-guns, is no surprise.

2. It accuses china of unbalancing the military balance in the region.

Japan and South Korea is no push over either, while emphasing of US interest. Irony.

3. It accusses china of tentency to block international shipping lanes.

China depended more on the shipping lanes more than anybody. Cute.

4. It accusses China and Russia as an Axis power when they has an military with about 10,000 men.

US, Nato and other allies has probably a hundred such excercises a year, far exceeding 10,000.

5. Human Rights

While I agreed china is lacking it. US is no angel either.

1. China military expansion - I agree with you somewhat. China seems to be actually contracting while modernizing some of their military. PLAAF is a good example. Thousands of less capable J-7's and such are being taken out while PLAAF will field a smaller number of more capable SU-30 MKK's and J-10's. But in fairness, I would say China is expanding their missiles opposite Taiwan. So your conclusion is not totally a fair assessment.

2. China unbalancing the region - I would have to say adding Kilos, Sukhoi jets, and hundreds of SRBM and IRBM's every year unbalances the region completely. But to be fair to China, modernizing does not in and of itself do this alone. That's just the trade-off. Not necessarily a negative thing though.

3. China blocking shipping lanes - I've never heard this charge leveled....anywhere. Could you provide links?

4. China and Russia as axis power - Again, I've never seen and OFFICIAL charge leveled here. Just because the U.S. highlighted these exercises with "interest", does not mean they charge them with anything.

5. Human rights - At least in the USA I can choose any religion I see fit. If Catholic, I can acknowledge the teachings from the Vatican. I can stand out in front of the White House cursing G.W. Bush, calling for his downfall. I'd love to see anybody in China stand out in Beijing calling Hu Jintao a criminal that should be deposed. The USA smells like roses compared to China in this area. Nuff' said!

@TJJH - I agree there will be no war. But China does not hold the entire economic ace alone. Both China and the USA share this trump card. You see, China needs American markets to keep her economy growing. The U.S. needs China economically for the same reason. They provide us with cost-effective durable goods. China is an economic partner and we need eachother. The USA could hurt China's economy also.

You talk about the MTV generation not standing for the end of cheap goods. Have you heard of CAFTA? Alot of those Chinese manufacturing jobs will be going to Latin America.....not all of them though. Cheap goods will continue to flow here. But more and more will flow from Latin America. And I believe China would lose the political ace with an out-and-out invasion of Taiwan. THAT would be an illegal invasion. Before you give me the "Iraq was illegal" nonsense, go read U.N. Resolution 1441.

Originally Posted by Sea Dog

I agree with you somewhat. China seems to be actually contracting while modernizing some of their military.

I mentioned on another thread the following about the PLAN and its overall reduction in numbers meaning that there is no "buildup" going on.

While this is true pure numbers, in terms of ongoing shipbuilding it is most certainly not true. The PLAN is embarked on a phenominal shipbuilding program of new, modern combatants. Certainly adding new hulls at a faster rate than any other nation on earth at the present time, and perhaps at a faster rate than any time since World War II.

So, while they are retiring older ships at a fast pace, they are adding very capable, new, modern combatants at a pace more rapid than anyone else right now.

I haven't checked, but the same type of scenario may also hold in other areas (ie. Mechanized forces, air forces, ballistic missiles, etc.)

Most of the investment going into PRC is infact from ROC businessmen. Also, do not forget that the world buys from PRC, not just America. There are too many what ifs and not enough real possibilities. China will not retake Taiwan unless ROC declares itself as ROT.

sea dog, if you stand in fron of the white house and curse oat george bush, no one will do anything. yeah right. youll get arrested, hassled, then realeased to be hassled by the cia at home, and then you might find that you lost your job and your house burnt down...trust me, its happend to people before.

Originally Posted by MIGleader

sea dog, if you stand in fron of the white house and curse oat george bush, no one will do anything. yeah right. youll get arrested, hassled, then realeased to be hassled by the cia at home, and then you might find that you lost your job and your house burnt down...trust me, its happend to people before.

Really? Could you name someone this has happened to or post a story? I'm serious.

I know that generally in the US as long as you keep the protest peaceful and do not block public access(keep moving) you can picket or protest anything you want.

Everyday on Tv you see various different people lambasting the Prestdent. I don't think all these people had their houses burned down, lost their jobs or were hasseled by the CIA. Because if they wee they would immediatley be on the news..i.e. CNN, FOX, MSNBC, CBS, 20 20, 60 minutes etc...Why? Because those type of stories are worth a lot of money to the person involved and the networks.

Originally Posted by bd popeye

Really? Could you name someone this has happened to or post a story? I'm serious.

I know that generally in the US as long as you keep the protest peaceful and do not block public access(keep moving) you can picket or protest anything you want.

Everyday on Tv you see various different people lambasting the Prestdent. I don't think all these people had their houses burned down, lost their jobs or were hasseled by the CIA. Because if they wee they would immediatley be on the news..i.e. CNN, FOX, MSNBC, CBS, 20 20, 60 minutes etc...Why? Because those type of stories are worth a lot of money to the person involved and the networks.

From the history channel: ok, in the 70s, there was a man named samuel byke. you may know him as the man who tried to kill nixon. before he actually tried to kill nixon, he hated him. at a bar, byke said some thing bad about nixon(not a threat). someone overheard and squealed, and the cia came and hassled him. he proteseted nixon in front of the white house(no threats), and again got hassled. he never really had a good jhob, and now found it even harder to get one.

just for interest...he tried to hijack a plane and crash it into the white house, but got thwarted by security. i wish he had suceeded. nixon was a basterd.


more...in the sixties, a man claimed he had seen aliens land, and he constantly talked about it. the government told him to shut up, but he didnt. he actully defied them and publicly announced aliens were real. he lost his job the next day, and his house burnt.

americans like to think they have th right to protest, but what happenend to kids who protested during vietnam? LBJ send the national guard to tear gas em, and later, many were killed.
china mistreats its tibetians? what about the u.s, and the 1950's and 60's? black people potesting for rights got jailed, had their houses vandalized, were attacked by police dogs, and often killed.

now, you may say this is the past of the u.s, but isnt tiananmen the past of china too?

Hi MIGleader. I'm sorry, but your solitary example of government abuse pales in comparison to China's Human Rights violations in the 1970's. It pales in comparison to modern China today. The facts are, that you are free to completely trash President GW Bush in the USA....anywhere, and anytime you want. Did you happen to see the angry protests out in Washington DC a couple of weeks back? There were both thousands of GW Bush supporters and protesters out there speaking there mind.

I can guarantee you that nobody.....NOBODY in China has any right to criticize Hu Jintao or the other party leadership of China. Go down to Beijing and demand China stop referring to Taiwan as a part of China. Better yet, call for Taiwan independance right in the middle of Beijing. Basically you can't compare the USA to China here. The USA is golden compared to China in Human rights and freedoms.

Originally Posted by Sea Dog

Hi MIGleader. I'm sorry, but your solitary example of government abuse pales in comparison to China's Human Rights violations in the 1970's. It pales in comparison to modern China today. The facts are, that you are free to completely trash President GW Bush in the USA....anywhere, and anytime you want. Did you happen to see the angry protests out in Washington DC a couple of weeks back? There were both thousands of GW Bush supporters and protesters out there speaking there mind.

I can guarantee you that nobody.....NOBODY in China has any right to criticize Hu Jintao or the other party leadership of China. Go down to Beijing and demand China stop referring to Taiwan as a part of China. Better yet, call for Taiwan independance right in the middle of Beijing. Basically you can't compare the USA to China here. The USA is golden compared to China in Human rights and freedoms.

Sure, you can criticize the president, but look at what happen to those people. They suffer so much heat from the media that they have to apologize. With the exception of Michael Moore, but he has thick skin.

Originally Posted by tphuang

Sure, you can criticize the president, but look at what happen to those people. They suffer so much heat from the media that they have to apologize. With the exception of Michael Moore, but he has thick skin.

Name one person who is suffering as a result of criticizing President Bush. Just one. The facts are, you can't. Meanwhile, let's see you go to Beijing and call for Taiwan's independance. Let's see you go there with a poster of Hu Jintao with the word "CRIMINAL" painted on it. Yeah.....thought so.

Originally Posted by Sea Dog

Name one person who is suffering as a result of criticizing President Bush. Just one. The facts are, you can't. Meanwhile, let's see you go to Beijing and call for Taiwan's independance. Let's see you go there with a poster of Hu Jintao with the word "CRIMINAL" painted on it. Yeah.....thought so.

The Dixie Chicks.

hahha, in China, you will get your ass kicked by normal people if you say Taiwan should be independent.

Originally Posted by tphuang

The Dixie Chicks.

Ha...they aren't really hurting. They just changed their marketing from Country Western music, which is traditionally a very conservative group of people, to more pop and rock...where those views were more accepted.

But the media and the government didn't do this...it was the people. With freedom also comes responsibility and being willing to be accountable for what you say and do. They found their primary market at the time didn't much like what they were saying...so they switched markets...and they were free to do so.

Originally Posted by MIGleader

From the history channel: ok, in the 70s, there was a man named samuel byke. you may know him as the man who tried to kill nixon. before he actually tried to kill nixon, he hated him. at a bar, byke said some thing bad about nixon(not a threat). someone overheard and squealed, and the cia came and hassled him. he proteseted nixon in front of the white house(no threats), and again got hassled. he never really had a good jhob, and now found it even harder to get one.

just for interest...he tried to hijack a plane and crash it into the white house, but got thwarted by security. i wish he had suceeded. nixon was a basterd.


more...in the sixties, a man claimed he had seen aliens land, and he constantly talked about it. the government told him to shut up, but he didnt. he actully defied them and publicly announced aliens were real. he lost his job the next day, and his house burnt.

americans like to think they have th right to protest, but what happenend to kids who protested during vietnam? LBJ send the national guard to tear gas em, and later, many were killed.
china mistreats its tibetians? what about the u.s, and the 1950's and 60's? black people potesting for rights got jailed, had their houses vandalized, were attacked by police dogs, and often killed.

now, you may say this is the past of the u.s, but isnt tiananmen the past of china too?

MIGleader your sense of American history is somewhat askew.

First off I myself being black know about the injustices against black people and people of color.

As for the protest against the Vietnam war. They were on going during the war. Much of the violence was instageted by the protestors. The National guard in Ohio did kill 4 protestors in 1970. But there were thousands of peaceful protest.

I never heard of Samuel Byke. I will have to look that up. I'm very filimar with attempts on Pres. lives. That name does not sound at all filimar.

edit..Ha Ha! I looked up Samuel Joseph Byck ..He was a nut with a history of pyscatric problems. No wonder I never heard of him. I was on the USS Midway at the time he hijacked a airliner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Byck

The statement about aliens landing and the man's house being burned down. sounds like an urban ledgend to me.

Tomorrow I could got to D.C. and protest peacefully infront of the White House.(with the proper permit) Cuss out the Pres. And go home. Nothing will happen to me. Do something similar in the PRC against the leader there. See what happens.

I do not like political discussions. I will not respond futher. Feel free to respond to my post. Thank you.

so you think if a few hundred peaceful protestors went up to tianmen in 06, the chinese would do the same thing again? they would first just tell em to leave, and then tear gas em. thats it.

Originally Posted by MIGleader

so you think if a few hundred peaceful protestors went up to tianmen in 06, the chinese would do the same thing again? they would first just tell em to leave, and then tear gas em. thats it.

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wach it! this isen't political forum to brash chinese government....