Anti-Carrier Trump Card

they probably have a kilo's sig, but not a yuans or songs.

No the USN does not have the acoustic signature for the Song class. But trust me the USN is working on that. Yuan I'm not sure of.

a remote control ming is not impossible, all you need to do is steer it, not fore it or submerge it or anything complicated.

MIGleader I'm sure it could be done but are you aware that there many obstcales underwater that need to be navigated? I'm sure the technology exist to remote control a sub. But it won't be as easy as some may think.

Originally Posted by bd popeye

No the USN does not have the acoustic signature for the Song class. But trust me the USN is working on that. Yuan I'm not sure of.

Popeye, are you aware that the Song has been being delivered to the PLAN since 1994? The PLAN has eight or nine of them.

I will bet dollars to doughnuts that the USN has the sig of the Song.

The Yuan is the new boat, delivered first last year in 2004. They have two of them.

It is thought that this was the boat that was off Guam last year...but I do not know that.

Either way, I would be surprized, if it has been very far out of harbor at all into the open waters of the South China Sea or beyond, if an ADCAP LA boat, or maybe even one of the Sea Wolves hasn't tagged it.

well, no one said a remote control ming was easy, just possible
even if china has had the song for a while, how has the u.s obtained its sig.
have p-3s been spying in chinese waters? unlikely.

Originally Posted by MIGleader

how has the u.s obtained its sig.
have p-3s been spying in chinese waters?

If they did, it would most likely be other subs, either ADCAP LA or Sea Wolf, in the China and South China Seas.

USN boats would regularly tag Soviet subs soon after they left port and got into international waters...outside of a 12 or so mile zone. Sometimes sooner I am told.

Jeff posted..>>""Popeye, are you aware that the Song has been being delivered to the PLAN since 1994? The PLAN has eight or nine of them.""

Yes I am. I can state that the USN has had great difficulty tracing diesel subs...Someone..My son told me that the diesel boats are hard if not impossible to track.

As soon as most Soivet subs left port in the cold war days they had a shadow.

Originally Posted by Jeff Head

If they did, it would most likely be other subs, either ADCAP LA or Sea Wolf, in the China and South China Seas.

USN boats would regularly tag Soviet subs soon after they left port and got into international waters...outside of a 12 or so mile zone. Sometimes sooner I am told.

its different. u.s had subs in europe to track the russians. the u.s likely cant send planes to track the pla's subs over taiwan strait. and the pla has not sent its subs on world missions yet.

Originally Posted by MIGleader

and the pla has not sent its subs on world missions yet.

Just this year there was a new PLAN sub off of Guam. Either a 093 or a Yuan is my guess. May well have been tagged while in the vicinity.

...and I am willing to bet that advanced LA class or Sea Wolf class subs do enter the China and South China Seas. They are the ones that would most probably tag the new Chinese subs and get their signatures.

and vice versa

So in this discussing are we looking at a hypothetical attack on a generic aircraft carrier? There are two nations in the East with them, India and Thailand. Ofcourse Japan has helicopter ships and as usual there are American and maybe British CVs in the area.

Attacks on one nation's CV would be different from the next nation's CV. PLAN submarines ,PLAAF and PLAN strike aircraft would have more of an effect on on CVBG than another.

definitely not a Yuan, that thing isn't fully operational. 93...none of us have ever seen that thing, and supposedly it has been operation for a few years now.

Originally Posted by Raven

So in this discussing are we looking at a hypothetical attack on a generic aircraft carrier? There are two nations in the East with them, India and Thailand. Ofcourse Japan has helicopter ships and as usual there are American and maybe British CVs in the area.

Attacks on one nation's CV would be different from the next nation's CV. PLAN submarines ,PLAAF and PLAN strike aircraft would have more of an effect on on CVBG than another.

well, i guess chinas cvbg will definitly kick the thai and indian cvbg much more easily than the u.s one. south korea also has lpds. alot of the methods china has developed to counter a u.s cvbg will have a much larger sucsses rate on the indians or thai. but i dont see a thai war any time soon, but india...

Well, the current Indian CVBG centered around INS Viraat is not really comparable to a US CVBG. The main mission for the Viraat is to provide air cover and ASW support for a task force, strike missions on enemy shores and ships could be conducted, but I don't think Viraat will be seen to often in Chinese home waters in the event of a war.

If Viraat would venture to China, it probably would have to be kept out of range from Chinas fighter-bombers, only making fast hit and run attacks towards strategic targets on the coast. Staying for a longer time in the area covered by fighter-bombers only would mean that it would be sunk sooner or later.

The subs would be a threat, but by moving at high speeds and searching carefully with firgates and choppers in front of the formation they can be avoided. A SSK usually doesn't have enough fire power to sink a carrier with one salvo, and staying around long enough to reload is close to suicide. A single torpedo can however seriously damage a carrier, making it unoperational.

A single torpedo can however seriously damage a carrier, making it unoperational.

Maybe the INS Viraat would be forced to retreat if struck one conventially armed torpedo. But not a Nimitz class.

The redundancy of the compartmentation of a Nimitz class would have to be seen to be understood. Watertight intregrity in the compartments that would be targeted by underwater attack is always maintained.

It would be difficult to render a CVN unoperable with a single torpedo. I have no idea how many topredos it would take to disable a Nimitz calss. But I'm sure it would be a substanial number.

At current forces, the PLAN cannot defeat the Indian Navy in blue waters without air cover. PLAN will have a rough time locating the Indian forces without organic air cover.