All About The Chinese Aircraft Carrier Thread

[su-27]

I agree with you, Obi Wan, but my question is more general: do you think that PLAN needs escort carriers? If yes, what kind of ship, for what functions?

[Sczepan]

to add facts:
in 2005 China imported arround 127 mio. t. oil; the oeconomical development needs lot more oil in the future.
Today more than 1/2 is out from the persian gulf;
arround 1/4 of chinese importet oil is african sourced, arround 5 % by Sudan.
20 % ar from Angola, Algeria, Gabun, Nigeria ....

[joshuatree]

I agree with you, Obi Wan, but my question is more general: do you think that PLAN needs escort carriers? If yes, what kind of ship, for what functions?

I don't think there is a need for escort carriers. If the argument is to protect merchant shipping, frigates or even well designed corvettes can do this. If it is during a time of war, the country would ramp up unit production. To build escort carriers now just in case of war seems to be a big waste of resources.

The Kiev/Minsk is a poor choice for an escort carrier. Why would you need a 40,000 ton ship serve as an escort carrier? Wouldn't that just be a carrier at that point?

Maybe 5 years ago, it would have made sense for China to build one small escort carrier. So you could have already been training all these years and even have your new destroyers, frigates, and subs right now form a training CBG.

[BLUEJACKET]

Even if the Gorshkov was easier to convert for the IN, as been suggested, it's still the same Kiev class ASW/AD cruiser. I guess either the Chinese aren't in a hurry or they can't make up their mind what to do with them. Thanks to all who expressed similar views as mine about Kiev/Minsk!
Yak-41 video-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81ajldA5xwA

[Sczepan]

.....

As for refitting the Kievs, have any of you tried to restore a car that hasn't been driven for fifteen years? Magnify that nightmare by a thousand and you still won't be halfway there!

wait a minute - the Gorshkov hasn't been in the sea since 1992 and is in a really bad condition. The boiler- und turbinerooms leak very intensive, and in 1994 was a fire in the ship, which demaged a lot.
But the russians repair and refit this ship (beginning in 2005, after 13 yrs of sleeping, as I know) to become the next indan carrier.
Its not impossible to refit Minsk and Kiew also - but the questian is:
Is thise wise in considering
- the price of refitting compared to the price of building a new one
- the chance to create a revised new generation
- the win of admission fee by presenting these ships in the theme parks.

And about the escort frigates:

I don't think there is a need for escort carriers. If the argument is to protect merchant shipping, frigates or even well designed corvettes can do this. If it is during a time of war, the country would ramp up unit production. To build escort carriers now just in case of war seems to be a big waste of resources.
....

Maybe 5 years ago, it would have made sense for China to build one small escort carrier. So you could have already been training all these years and even have your new destroyers, frigates, and subs right now form a training CBG.

I am not convinced about that. The Kiew-design could operate much more ASW helos, more and bigger anti-ship and air-defence missiles - this one ship could replace five to six (or more) frigates.
If you need this escort service 5 years ago (in 2011 or later), you better have to start the creation and building at least in 2001! You need intensvie training for some yrs to become combat-readdy! If not - forget all your toys.

[bd popeye]

Sczepan sez;

wait a minute - the Gorshkov hasn't been in the sea since 1992 and is in a really bad condition. The boiler- und turbinerooms leak very intensive, and in 1994 was a fire in the ship, which demaged a lot.
But the russians repair and refit this ship (beginning in 2005, after 13 yrs of sleeping, as I know) to become the next indan carrier.

True enough. I'm sure the IN inspected the ship throughly before buying it. Afterall they have been operating CV's for many, many years. As far as I know the IN has officers watching the ship being re-fit. There to perhaps make sure the Russians are maintaing high standards.

Sczepan, remember our "discussion" about diesels vs steam turbines? well it appears the IN has chosen the diesels!

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...kramaditya.htm

The eight boilers are being renewed and converted to take diesel fuel instead of furnace fuel oil and modern oil-water separators as well as sewage treatment plant are being incorporated to meet international standards. She is also being fitted with six new Italian-made Wärtsilä 1.5 MW diesel generators, Global Marine communications system, Sperry Bridgemaster navigation radar, a new telephone exchange, new data link and IFF Mk XI system

The article says generators but I have it on good source they mean diesels engines.

[Sczepan]

Yeah, also the Indians don't believe in this russian scrap-propulsion.
I myself would also prefer modern diesels instead.

But India will use Harrier VSTOL and MiG-29 http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/mig-29.htm, which have a normal short take off way off only arround ~ 270 m (900 ft)
or let me better say the MiG 29 K http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/MiG-29K.html

with a maxim. weight of 22.400 kg (power is 2 x 86,3 kN );

compared to SU-30 (take off way is 550 m), and proposed SU-33

take off way is 100-195 m (by Sky-Jump) and a maxim. weight of 33.000 kg (power is 2x 122,6 kN)

so the weight/power relations seems to be better with the Indian Fighter
(MiG 29 K: 129,77 kg per kN, SU-33 134,58 kg per kN);

may be the chinese Varyag needs more speed

just to compare: the good old F-14 Tomcat

take off weight was maxim. 33.724 kg, powered 2 x F110-GE-400 each 120 kN (incl. after burner)
which is a relation of 140,51 kg per kN
may be the yanks needs more speed to

oh - I forgott the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet

maxim. take off weight is 25.401 kg, 2 x F414-GE-400 Turbofans each 97,86 kN
which is a relation of 129,80 kg per kN

[su-27]

Sczepan, do you think Minsk could be employed as a mix of an escort carrier and an arsenal ship?

[bd popeye]

The man from Germany sez;

take off weight was maxim. 33.724 kg, powered 2 x F110-GE-400 each 120 kN
which is a relation of 140,51 kg per kN
may be the yanks needs more speed to

Huh?? I'm not sure I understand. But I do know this>>>An F-14 could go from 0 to 160 knots in 100 meters with a full load of fuel, & weapons. All of course with the aid of a catapult.

Tomact at stage 5 afterburners during an evening launch. Kick the tires, light the fires! That plane could rattle the teeth in your head.

[Sczepan]

.....
Huh?? I'm not sure I understand. But I do know this>>>An F-14 could go from 0 to 160 knots in 100 meters with a full load of fuel, & weapons. All of course with the aid of a catapult.
....

the russian carriers didn't use a catapult
so I just compare the weigt and the power

the (non)sense of this arithmetical excursion was only to check the weight/power ratio of some different carrier borne fighters

to add once more:
the indegenious J-10 Fighter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10

Empty weight: 9,730 kg (21,460 lb) - suspected
max TO weight 18500kg (source: http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/j10.htm)
powered by the Russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan rated at 17,857lb (79.43kN) dry and 27,557lb st (122.58kN) with afterburning.
so the relation is 150,92 kg per kn - I think this 1-enigne plane will never become a carrier borne fighter - compared to the others

Sczepan, do you think Minsk could be employed as a mix of an escort carrier and an arsenal ship?

I think, the Minsk could do this job after a long time of refitting - I dont say, this should be done.

[bd popeye]

the russian carriers didn't use a catapult

Gee! What a schock! As I'm sure you have figured out the catapult was the point of my post!

I think this 1-enigne plane will never become a carrier borne fighter - compared to the others

Intresting? But I have seen models of a two engined navalized J-10. Probally some PLAN fans dream. Two engines is the way to go in CV based aircraft. Although there have been very sucessful single engine aircraft.

[Sczepan]

As I'm sure you have figured out the catapult was the point of my post!

its so true - thats the big missing at this russian carriers; as I know, the PLAN studied the ole Melbourne including the catapult - I am wondering that we can't see some chinese made catapult in progress; this "Sky-jump" is a scanty replacement. Good enough for training with small payload, but not enough for hard combat.

But I have seen models of a two engined navalized J-10. Probally some PLAN fans dream. Two engines is the way to go in CV based aircraft. Although there have been very sucessful single engine aircraft.

I think a two engined navalized J-10 is a dream for the next yrs.

Another reflection:
The L-15 Falcon advanced trainer have max 9,500kg take-off weight;

both engines (with afterburner) will give a power of 2 x 59,8 kN (13450 lbs) or 64,7 kN (14500 lbs). This is a relation of ~ 80 kg/kN - could become a nice trainer for future carrier pilots .....

[BLUEJACKET]

I must add a few things to follow up my last post.
In case someone hadn't read those hyperlinks:

The aircraft carrier's flight deck will be extended and a powder type catapult will be installed for short take-offs and landings (STOL). ..
The Indian Navy top brass, however, has given great importance to aircraft carriers in its overall naval strategy. Gorshkov, with a sea endurance of 30 days and the capacity to carry more than 2,000 sailors and officers, is perceived as a real force projector for the country. Once it is refurbished, Gorshkov will come with 16 MiG-29K aircraft and six Kamov KA-28 choppers. The MiG-29K has a range of 2,300 km. The Indian Navy's blue water aspirations have received a boost as it now has the capacity to put a carrier task force as far as the South China Sea and the Persian Gulf. Naval strategists point out that India sits astride two "choke points" for global oil supplies - the strait of Hormuz on its west and the Strait of Malacca in the east. The Indian Navy may be called upon increasingly play a policing role as the volume of traffic in the Indian Ocean region is set to rise dramatically. The three East Asian dynamos, China, Japan and South Korea, will be importing more oil and gas from West Asia as their economies continue to grow. ..
The critics also argue that Gorshkov is too big for the Indian Navy's requirements. An aircraft carrier can no longer remain invisible in the vast expanse of the ocean for long, given the gigantic strides satellite imaging technology has taken. They also add that by the time Gorshkov formally enters the Indian Navy, it will be 20 years old. There was a major fire on Gorshkov when it was used by the Soviet Navy. ..the 44,000-tonne vessel has seen some very bad days. An explosion tore through the engine room of the carrier in 1994 and there was a major fire incident on the ship in the previous year. In fact, the Gorshkov was in service with the Northern Fleet of the Russian Navy for just five years before being decommissioned in the post-Soviet era.
So what the Indian Navy is set to get is a ship that has been virtually rusting for a decade. Needless to say, the Russians would not have invested very heavily in its upkeep ahead of its subsequent sale to India.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl21...3003603500.htm

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...2201140400.htm
"По сравнению с "Киевом" корабль имеет иную форму надстройки, более мощную силовую установку. Имеются и небольшие отличия в конструкции корпуса. " Translation: "Compared with Kiev, the ship has a different island, more powerful propulsion system, and minor differences in hull construction" http://aviaros.narod.ru/adm_gor.htm

So, the Gorshkov isn't much better than the 2 Kiev class ships China has. It could be that the Chinese just waiting for the IN to take delivery of it in ~less than 2 years from now and then see how well it performs.
I'll leave the smaller carrier escorts for others to discusss, but do agree that currently the PLAN doesn't have enough up to date surface CGs/DDGs/FFGs for 2-3 CV fleet. For this reason, to those of you who say "it will never happen, it's not worth it, etc." I say: if it's worth it for India, it may be worth for China, even with the Varyag and other domesticaly built carriers!

[joshuatree]

wait a minute - the Gorshkov hasn't been in the sea since 1992 and is in a really bad condition. The boiler- und turbinerooms leak very intensive, and in 1994 was a fire in the ship, which demaged a lot.
But the russians repair and refit this ship (beginning in 2005, after 13 yrs of sleeping, as I know) to become the next indan carrier.
Its not impossible to refit Minsk and Kiew also - but the questian is:
Is thise wise in considering
- the price of refitting compared to the price of building a new one
- the chance to create a revised new generation
- the win of admission fee by presenting these ships in the theme parks.

And about the escort frigates:

I am not convinced about that. The Kiew-design could operate much more ASW helos, more and bigger anti-ship and air-defence missiles - this one ship could replace five to six (or more) frigates.
If you need this escort service 5 years ago (in 2011 or later), you better have to start the creation and building at least in 2001! You need intensvie training for some yrs to become combat-readdy! If not - forget all your toys.

The Minsk and Kiev both can be refurbished, no one is denying this. But most people think the chance of that happening will be zero because of the neglect, the current condition of these ships, and the value of putting in a ton of money to refurbish them (is it worth it?). Comparing to the Gorshkov is of limited value because the Indian Navy's goal is not the same as the PLAN's goal. The Indian Navy will decommission the Viraat around 2008 because the ship is probably nearing it's useful life. At the same time, their own indigenous carrier won't be available till around 2012. So to them, it's worth refurbishing the Gorshkov. They don't want to lose their carrier capability for 4 years. PLAN on the other hand will hopefully see the Varyag come online soon. Then they can focus on an indigenous carrier thus it's not worth the resources to refurbish the Minsk or Kiev.

I disagree on this one. If I'm trying to protect merchant shipping, I rather have 5 or 6 frigates than one Kiev-ASW escort carrier. Why? I can spread out the area of coverage. I don't put all my eggs in one basket, should the Kiev be hit and sunk, I have nothing left. I also can train 5 or 6 captains with the frigates vs one Kiev. I have 5 or 6 new hulls vs one refurbished 30 yr old hull. I know it sounds cool to revive these big ships but you also need to see what are you getting out of it? Otherwise, why don't the USN just do a major complete refurbishment of their old decommissioned or soon to be decommissioned carriers?

[bd popeye]

BLUEJACKET sez;

I'll leave the smaller carrier escorts for others to discusss, but do agree that currently the PLAN doesn't have enough up to date surface CGs/FFGs for 2-3 CV fleet. For this reason, to those of you who say "it will never happen, it's not worth it, etc." I say: if it's worth it for India, it may be worth for China, even with Varyag and other domesticaly built carriers!

For once I agree with BLUEJACKET! Oh my! The world will stop spinning..hang on guys!

While the PLAN does not have enough escorts for 2-3 CVBG's it does shave enough for one. And if the PRC wants to project power and keep the sea lanes open it will need Cv's. A country like China should not let it' s neighbors over shadow them.