All About The Chinese Aircraft Carrier Thread

[Sea Dog]

Originally Posted by tphuang

Interesting, East will most likely be the last fleet to get a Carrier (if it ever gets one). Everything in East fleet seem to indicate an extremely defensive/green water fleet.

South Fleet is obviously the prime candidate with the 4 052s + SSNs + supply ships + SSNs.

North Fleet could also be a candidate considering that Varyag is getting fixed up in its backyard. If they send over a few 054As. You could see a battle group will 2 051Cs for AAW, 054As/052 for ASW and SSNs.

Just to add, the South Sea fleet would make alot of sense also for two reasons. #1 China has interests in that region with the Spratley Islands being contested, the Paracels, and it has the entrance to the Pacific from the Luzon straits. #2 And basically, it is also prime waters for carrier operations. It is the ideal place to train the PLAN in carrier aviation.

[Sczepan]

if - and whenever - the Varjag will have a military future:

the Varjag at first will become part of Dalian naval academy, to train chinese carrier pilots for getting carrier licence

and after that the ship will run in the south to train carrier operations, with all the new ships there (the south sea fleet, additional to sea dogs reason, is important to attack Tungsha and Itu Aba in case of an taiwanese rash action - and to protect the sea way to middle-east and africa, where the most of chinese exportet oil come from)

and my 5 cents - both Type 051C air-defence missile guided destroyer (DDG) will escort the Varjag at this trip - and will be part of a future CBG ....

[BLUEJACKET]

=bd popeye;44604]Bluejacket. You need to make paragraphs in your post and use more space. Everything kinda runs together. And use the quote tool to quote someone...It's that little box in the toolbar when you post that looks like a type written page. It's yellow.

Based on what you have posted the PLAN will follow the Russian model of operating a CV. How do you know that? Do you have some sort of inside information?

You mentioned that the ship will be equipped with missiles. How do you know that? And how do you know that the Udav-1 anti-submarine system with 60 anti-submarine rockets will be installed? Are you making the assumption because the ship was designed to have it it will have it? You do know when the Varyag was purchased it was nothing more than an engineless hulk? We assume it has extensive work over the last 4 years. But what takes place within the hull is just a guess.

A Kilo class SSK is one of the most advanced SSK's in the world? Even though it does not have AIP?? Every nation that has SSK's with AIP makes the same claim. We are the best! SSK's are best suited in littorial waters because of their limited range and speed. Espically when operating on batteries.

Thanks for posting those links abot the PLAN training and R & D. .

I don't have any inside info., and my guess is probably as good as anyone else's when it comes to the future armament on that carrier. However, based on all open info., it is safe to assume that the Chinese, owing to the fact that they are behind in modern technology, are nonetheless smart enough to reverse engineer military hardware and add on their own gear where they deem it beneficial.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...13/24549.shtml
http://www.friendsoftibet.org/articles/claude3.html

Again, I strongly suspect that the ship will be equipped with missiles, because
it would be irresposible and stupid for the PLAN not to have it equiped with them. Even the USN carriers are armed with SAMs, and if PLAN is going to be short on escorts, it will make more sense to retain those launchers for ASMs and ASW. This is little of the subject, but why would they restart H-6 bomber (see the link in my prev. post) production with 2 additional pilons for ALCMs now?
http://science.howstuffworks.com/car....htm/printable

True, the ship didn't have engines installed, and the PLAN can just tow it in circles in Bohai Bay as a training platform for its pilots. But by spending more on propulsion and armament, China would get a better return on that $20M investment in the long run.
The Soviets successfuly used Whiskey and, later, Foxtrot and Zulu diesel subs to hunt/monitor USN SSBNs & CBGs in the Phillipine/South China seas (in the "blue water") during the Vietnam war, the 1973 Naval standoff in the Mediterranean and were also deployed to the Indian Ocean/Persian Gulf in 1991 before/during the Desert Storm, as described in this Russian language article here-
http://nvo.ng.ru/history/2006-07-28/5_submarine.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...n6112686/print
http://www.hazegray.org/features/russia/ss.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulu_class_submarine

If "We are the best!", why is the Swedish Navy Gotland is now stationed at Point Loma, CA?
http://www.c3f.navy.mil/images_pagegotland_arrives.htm
http://www.ss346.com/PDFs/NavyLeasin...t%20Loma%20%22
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/...propulsion.htm
http://www.kockums.se/Submarines/aipconversion.html
http://www.kockums.se/Submarines/gotland.html
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/gotland/
http://users.otenet.gr/~kostast/209_gen.htm
http://users.otenet.gr/~kostast/212.htm
http://users.otenet.gr/~kostast/214.htm


"SSK's are best suited in littorial waters because of their limited range and speed."- the latter is true, but the former is not-
Kilo Type 636:
Speed is 11 knots when surfaced and 20 knots when submerged. Range is 7,500 miles when snorkelling at 7 knots and 400 miles when submerged at 3 knots. http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kilo/
Kilo Type 877EKM:
Speed is 10 knots when surfaced and 17 knots when submerged. Range is 6,000 miles when snorting at 7 knots and 400 miles when submerged at 3 knots.- http://www.naval-technology.com/proj...877/index.html

They can make up for it by stationing them & other types
(i.e. Ming Type 035 with endurance 8000 miles at 8 knots snorting
330 at 4 knots dived, speed 15 knots surfaced 18 knots dived 10 knots snorting and/or Song S20 Class with speed 12-15 kts surfaced 22 kts dived) with greater speed along the route of CBG transit ahead of time.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...china/ming.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ming-specs.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...china/song.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...song-specs.htm
There are now approx. 25 non-Kilo types conventional subs on active duty
(19 Mings, 7 Songs & 2 Yuans), 5 SSN Hans, and 1 Type 92 Xia Class SSBN which may be converted to SSGN later once new 094-class SSBN is commisioned, + 3~4 Type 093 SSN submarines expected by 2010.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...china/navy.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_093_submarine
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/wo...na/type_92.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/wo...na/type_94.htm
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/default.asp

With this arsenal, the 4 Kilos now in service and 8 more of the newer Project 636 Kilos that may be purchased later don't even have to be attached to a CBG! Here are some interesting articles to get a feel of the "bigger scheme of things"-
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/...ls2/index.html
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/...chinacont.html

Do you like my spacing now?

The PRC may even refurbish 2 Kiev class carriers it has if need be.
http://www.russianwarrior.com/STMMai...ievphoto.htm&1

PLAN also has/builds training ship Shichang- With a displacement of 10,000t and a speed of 17 knots, it is one of the larger and faster ships in the PLAN inventory. This provides a training platform for large ship handling and flight deck operations. The Shichang is widely regarded as the prelude to the construction of a helicopter carrier or amphibious assult vessel, and provides a basis for perfecting fixed-wing aircraft carrier operational concepts.-
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...a/shichang.htm , and
Fuqing, Nanyun/Nancang & NEWCON underway replenishment ships for blue water ops.-
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ina/fuqing.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...na/nancang.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...hina/aor-x.htm


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southea.../HG21Ae02.html

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southea.../HG19Ae01.html

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/HI16Dg01.html

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/HI16Dg03.html

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea.html

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan.html
BOOK REVIEW
China as a US enemy
China: The Gathering Threat by Constantine C Menges
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/HD22Ad01.html

Memo to China: Careful what you wish for
Crunchy Cons by Rod Dreher
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/HC21Ad02.html

China as imperialist; China as colonist
China Marches West: The Qing Conquest of Central Eurasia by Peter Perdue
Taiwan's Imagined Geography: Chinese Colonial Travel Writing and Pictures, 1683-1895 by Emma Jinhua Teng
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/GH06Ad03.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/se...578679-4966323

[bd popeye]

I'm back. I wuz gonna stay away until Saturday but after reading this I had to reply!

Bluejacket. Much of what you posted has already be posted in this forum or the old ezboard forum.

In fact I started a thread in the old forum about the SSK threat;

http://p079.ezboard.com/fsinodefence...icID=213.topic

As for the Kiev and Minsk we had a discussion about that also;

http://p079.ezboard.com/fsinodefence...icID=201.topic

In my opinion the condition of those ships is so poor that it would not be prudent of the PLAN to attempt any activation. Too costly!

As for the USN USSR alledged standoff in the Medterrain in '73. I was there. I was stationed on the USS John F Kennedy CVA-67. I remember lots of attempted overflights by the Russians . I never once saw a single Russian surface ship. Rumor was we were always tracked by a Russian sub. Which was tracked by a USN sub. Tell me something I don't know . From late '73 until August '75 I was onboard two CV's in the western Pacific. Midway & Hancock. It's no secrect about what the Russian were doing. The USN was sucessfully doing the same with them.

As for the Swedish Gotland sub I believe have I posted much about that also!

Chinese submarines thread

Click down to post #7 for my post about the Gotland.

Bluejacket my point is this: We all clamour for new information about the PLAN CV. We really do. Any new information is always appreicated! Trouble is the PLAN is so secrective getting info is very hard. Very hard indeed!

[BLUEJACKET]

Originally Posted by bd popeye

I'm back. I wuz gonna stay away until Saturday but after reading this I had to reply!

Bluejacket. Much of what you posted has already be posted in this forum or the old ezboard forum.

In fact I started a thread in the old forum about the SSK threat;

http://p079.ezboard.com/fsinodefence...icID=213.topic

As for the Kiev and Minsk we had a discussion about that also;

http://p079.ezboard.com/fsinodefence...icID=201.topic

In my opinion the condition of those ships is so poor that it would not be prudent of the PLAN to attempt any activation. Too costly!

As for the USN USSR alledged standoff in the Medterrain in '73. I was there. I was stationed on the USS John F Kennedy CVA-67. I remember lots of attempted overflights by the Russians . I never once saw a single Russian surface ship. Rumor was we were always tracked by a Russian sub. Whw was tracked by a USN sub. Tell me something I don't know . From late '73 until August '75 I was onboard two CV's in the western Pacific. Midway & Hancock. It's no secrect about what the Russian were doing. The USN was sucessfully doing the same with them.

As for the Swedish Gotland sub I believe have I posted much about that also!

Chinese submarines thread

Click down to post #7 for my post about the Gotland.

Bluejacket my point is this: We all clamour for new information about the PLAN CV. We really do. Any new information is always appreicated! Trouble is the PLAN is so secrective getting info is very hard. Very hard indeed!

Thanks for the old links! I guess all we can do here is gossip, exchange rumors/pictures and speculate. In the Tao Te Ching, it says:
Those who know do not speak;
Those who speak do not know.
So, those who have access to "Top Secret" info. on both sides of the Pacific won't be revealing it on this forum, period!
But I do know this: as was the case with the USSR, the secret was often not what they had, but what they didn't have. That's why China doesn't reveal much about its military. What it does reveal, may turn out to be partialy true, not true and/or desinformation. In the case of a/c carriers, for political reasons it is to their advantage to maintain ambiguity. The last time China fought a Western power at sea was during the Opium war- and lost (actually, they never won any naval war) to the British drug dealers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars
http://www.druglibrary.org/Schaffer/heroin/opiwar1.htm
http://historyliterature.homestead.c.../extended.html
http://www-chaos.umd.edu/history/modern2.html

"The 2 wrongs doesn't make it right", but in order to be able to "negotiate from the position of strength" China will see itself as justified violating the sale agreement with Ukraine regarding the future use of Varyag- and that ship eventually WILL BE USED FOR MILITARY PURPOSES. We can see it being worked on, but there is (are?) probably another carrier now being build in secret that we don't see yet, like the 1st Yuan class submarine that suddenly came out of nowhere.
"In my opinion the condition of those ships is so poor that it would not be prudent of the PLAN to attempt any activation. Too costly!" -How do you know of their condition? Have you been given a tour around/below decks of these ships? Even if it will be costly, will it not be more so to build new ones? Why did they buy Varyag for 20M, and what are they doing with it now, cater to tourists? Rather, they are getting ready for a "tiger cruise"!
Making the Varyag operational will take millions of dollars, but with plans calling for an operational carrier by 2020 approved by the 15th Communist Party Congress, the Varyag may be a quick fix solution allowing the PLA(N) time to gain experience in both carrier design and operation.
http://www.cda-cdai.ca/symposia/1999/varner99.htm

As for "I never once saw a single Russian surface ship" in the standoff in the Med. in '73, even back then they didn't have to come that close to be seen, thanks to their radars & missiles.
Diesel-electric submarines are ideally suited for this short-ranged mission. Even relatively unsophisticated submarines can hold naval forces at risk while posing a difficult challenge for ASW forces.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/s...s/aswcncpt.htm

http://www.military.com/Content/Prin...2F109926%2Ehtm

http://www.military.com/forums/0,15240,111608,00.html

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/EE10Ad06.html

[Sczepan]

as Kommersant reportet at 16:05 | 15/ 09/ 2006 - http://de.rian.ru/business/20060915/53918987.html - sorry, the link is in german, I didn't know the english source - the chinese defence ministry was interested to sign a deal of

...rund 40 Transporthubschraubern des Typs Ka-29 und von mehr als 20 Frühwarnhubschraubern Ka-31..

- arround 40 transport helos type Ka-29 and more as 20 AEW helos Ka-31;
this big deal make big sense in combination with a chinese carrier programe

[Obi Wan Russell]

On the subject of the original purchase agreement with the Ukraine, I believe the purpose of the clause stating that the Varyag was not to be used for military purposes was not actually to prevent CHina from commissioning her as a CV, but to absolve the Ukraine of any legal responsibility should the PLAN succeed in activating her. In part it was also a legal ploy to allow the ship to pass through tha Bosphorus from the Black sea to the Med. When the Varyag eventually commissions for service, there will be no way for the Ukraine to enforce the clause (they may throw their hands up in mock horror, but wil do nothing in order to remain on good terms with China who may order further warships from her Yards, and may want to use the Carrier dummy deck facility at Nitka).

The 20 Ka-31 AEW helos are a dfinite 'red flag' item, as they have 'Carrier air group' practically stamped all over them! AEW is a mission vital to carrier ops (as the RN re discovered in the Falklands war, actually they never forgot, it was the politicians who needed reminding) and you only use heliborne AEW if you are taking them to sea to protect a task force. Land based AEW is best performed by long range multi engined large aircraft, preferrably converted airliners and the chinese have some of these already, so the Ka-31s can only be for shipboard operation. The Ka-29s are a little on the small side for amphibious assault but until the PLAN commissions a fully fledged LPH their available Amphibious ships are somewhat on the small side too, so the purchase makes sense in the short to medium term. They would also be very useful in the VERTREP role flying between Auxilliaries and warships carrying supplies.

[Jeff Head]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan Russell

The 20 Ka-31 AEW helos are a dfinite 'red flag' item, as they have 'Carrier air group' practically stamped all over them! AEW is a mission vital to carrier ops and you only use heliborne AEW if you are taking them to sea to protect a task force....the Ka-31s can only be for shipboard operation.

Agreed 100% Obi Wan. I believe we will see a squadron of these dedicated to a future PLAN CV, probably the Varyag to begin with. Then, later, on any indigenous carriers the PLAN builds as well. I still believe at some point they would be best served to develop a VTOL AEW aircraft based on something similar to the Osprey...but a helo based AEW is far better than none at all. We will probably see that they are also be used to fly off of and give the same capability to PLAN Amphibious task forces, and perhaps SAGs.

Originally Posted by Obi Wan Russell

The Ka-29s are a little on the small side for amphibious assault but until the PLAN commissions a fully fledged LPH their available Amphibious ships are somewhat on the small side too, so the purchase makes sense in the short to medium term. They would also be very useful in the VERTREP role flying between Auxilliaries and warships carrying supplies.

Again...agreed. The Type 072 IIIs and the Type 072 IIs would be ideally suited for such helos. The New LHD will use them too...but will also probably embark a more capable assualt helo of some type.

[swimmerXC]

Bah

[bd popeye]

Well swimmer dude..That is a nice paint job on the varyag..Looks basically the same to me. Can some PLAN fans in the US get some friggin' new pictures of the Varyag. I know I've said it before but...I mean how hard is it to get some pics???

[BLUEJACKET]

Needless to say chiefs heading the Dalian shipyard keep their mouth shut on how to deal with this Soviet old carrier which, with its 60-fighter capacity and missile launchers, was once lauded the "gem of Soviet Union fleet" during its heydays.
http://english.people.com.cn/200212/...6_108061.shtml

Kuznetsov class aircraft carriers are designated as heavy aviation cruisers by the Russian Navy so they can be allowed to transit the Bosphorus strait. The flight deck area of the class is 14,700 square meters, and aircraft takeoff is assisted by a bow ski jump angled at 12° in lieu of steam catapults. Two starboard lifts carry aircraft from the hangar to the flight deck. The ship has the capacity to support 16 Yakovlev Yak-41M and 12 Sukhoi Su-27K fixed-wing aircraft and a range of Kamov Ka-27 helicopters. The ship has a Granit anti-ship missile system equipped with 12 surface-to-surface missile launchers. The air defence gun and missile system includes the Klinok/SA-N-9 Gauntlet air defence missile system with 24 vertical launchers and 192 surface-to-air missiles, plus 8 CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS mounts. The system defends the ship against anti-ship missiles, aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles and surface ships. The ship is also equipped with an UDAV-1 integrated anti-submarine system with 60 anti-submarine missiles.
Currently, the only ship ever commissioned in the class, the Kuznetsov, operates 16 Yakovlev Yak-41Ms, 12 Sukohoi Su-33s, 5 Sukhoi Su-25UTGs and 26 Kamov Ka-27 helicopters for use in various roles, such as long range radar, anti-submarine and other uses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._Navy_cruisers

This is what Kuznetsov has, but some of those capabilities were built in the Varyag as well, since it was more than 50% complete.
I know you want new pictures, and I hope some of these are new to you:
http://www.varyagworld.com/forum.php

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publ...cle_005170.php

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1601320/posts

http://strategypage.com/htmw/htnavai.../20060530.aspx

http://english.people.com.cn/200512/...09_226918.html

[BLUEJACKET]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan Russell

to remain on good terms with China who may order further warships from her Yards,...

They are also cooperating with Antonov on cargo aircraft-
BEIJING, CHINA, September 27 /Olha Tanasiichuk - Ukrinform/. The O.K. Antonov Aircraft Design-Manufacturing Complex is cooperating with China's AVIC I aircraft manufacturer in developing the advanced regional jet passenger plane ARJ-21, designed to carry between 60 and 90 passengers and meant as Chinese civil aviation's 21st century workhorse.
As O.K. Antonov deputy designer general Oleg Bogdanov told Ukrinform's correspondent in Beijing, the Ukrainian aircraft designer-manufacturer is in charge of developing and making the plane's supercritical attack angle wing, and in September all scheduled work to this end was completed.
The O.K. Antonov's another contract with China involves the latter's Yun-8F-600 aircraft (the exact replica of the AN-12 which China virtually stole from the USSR when relations between the two socialist camp giants soured after Stalin's death).
http://ukraine-embassy.co.il/english...7810&ppage=571

At a minimum, however, Antonov has established a key position to help realize the PLA’s medium and possibly very large transport aircraft ambitions.
http://www.uscc.gov/researchpapers/2...rcesystems.htm

[swimmerXC]

A SPECIAL REPORT: CHINESE AIRCRAFT CARRIER FLEET

On the issue of whether China should build aircraft carrier, Chinese military has been sending out contradictory signals over the last 10 years. Voices apposing, delaying or supporting the building of aircraft carrier have also existed.......During the “10th Five-year Plan” of the People’s Republic of China, there have been some indications concerning the future directions of “Chinese aircraft carrier fleet”. ......The future “Chinese Aircraft Carrier Battle Group” composed of “Chinese Aircraft Carrier”, “Chinese Aegis” DDG (170 Class), “Chinese Sovremenni” DDG and 091G/093 SSNs will have the capability to engage in air defense, anti-ship and anti-submarine operations.

(For full story, please refer to June 2006 Issue of Kanwa Defense Review.)

http://www.kanwa.com/dnws/showpl.php?id=156

[isthvan]

Originally Posted by BLUEJACKET

Kuznetsov class aircraft carriers are designated as heavy aviation cruisers by the Russian Navy so they can be allowed to transit the Bosphorus strait. The flight deck area of the class is 14,700 square meters, and aircraft takeoff is assisted by a bow ski jump angled at 12° in lieu of steam catapults. Two starboard lifts carry aircraft from the hangar to the flight deck. The ship has the capacity to support 16 Yakovlev Yak-41M and 12 Sukhoi Su-27K fixed-wing aircraft and a range of Kamov Ka-27 helicopters. The ship has a Granit anti-ship missile system equipped with 12 surface-to-surface missile launchers. The air defence gun and missile system includes the Klinok/SA-N-9 Gauntlet air defence missile system with 24 vertical launchers and 192 surface-to-air missiles, plus 8 CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS mounts. The system defends the ship against anti-ship missiles, aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles and surface ships. The ship is also equipped with an UDAV-1 integrated anti-submarine system with 60 anti-submarine missiles.
Currently, the only ship ever commissioned in the class, the Kuznetsov, operates 16 Yakovlev Yak-41Ms, 12 Sukohoi Su-33s, 5 Sukhoi Su-25UTGs and 26 Kamov Ka-27 helicopters for use in various roles, such as long range radar, anti-submarine and other uses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._Navy_cruisers

This is what Kuznetsov has, but some of those capabilities were built in the Varyag as well, since it was more than 50% complete.

Hi Bluejacket.

Wikipedia isn’t always the best source for information’s about military hardware as article you posted confirms.
Kuznietsov class wasn’t designed as heavy aviation cruiser but rather only bared that designation to be allowed to transit Bosporus… Also Kuznietsov doesn’t operate any YAK-141 since its development was canceled during 1990s. Today Kuznietsov operate small air wing consisted of few Su-33 and Ka-27 variants and Su-25UTG is only used for training of new pilots…

Now since I doubt that Russians would sell SS-N-19 to China (or anyone else for that matter) there is little chance that we will see them on Varjag. China could outfit her whit one of Chinese SSM but I joust don’t see any reason for short range SSM on aircraft carrier.
On other hand Klinok and Kasthan are possible options and they could be installed on Varjag but I personally think that PLAN will rather use Type730 CIWS instead of Kasthan.

[FuManChu]

Originally Posted by bd popeye

Well swimmer dude..That is a nice paint job on the varyag..Looks basically the same to me. Can some PLAN fans in the US get some friggin' new pictures of the Varyag.

Maybe there simply aren't any new pictures, in as far that nothing else has changed much. I would dearly like to see what's been going on, but if relatively little has been done to it then there wouldn't be much to see of note.

Rome wasn't built in a day, have some patience. You won't see me screaming for more pictures of HMS Daring on the forums I visit.