SinoDefence Forum

adeptitus

In the 1980s, PLAN contracted Briton, France, and Italy to modernize its fleet. Major items acquired include Thomson-CFS radar, sonar, CILAS safecopter landing aid system, ship-based helicopters, combat management system (French TAVITAC and Italian IPN-10), Italian Eilas-3/B515S torpedo launcher, A244S ASW torpedos, etc.

The PLA/PLAN also planned to obtain 3 SAM systems with potential naval use, the French Thomson-CFS Crotale & R-440 Sea Crotale, Italian Aspide, and the British Sea Dart. The PLAN had wanted to equip a pair of 051 Luda DDG's with imported British systems like the Sea Dart. But due to cost and other considerations, the plan never materialized:

http://www.ciaonet.org/olj/sa/sa_99kos01.html
In January 1983, for instance, China signed an agreement with Britain for retrofitting of Sea Dart surface-to-air missiles on the Chinese destroyers. However, as the cost of the deal [£100 million] was considered to be too high, this was not pursued. Deals with the Italians, French, Ukrainians and Russians, however, have been successful in this regard.

The exchange rate in 1983 was approx. £1 : 1.50 USD:
http://fx.sauder.ubc.ca/etc/GBPpages.pdf

So the estimated cost would've been $150 million USD. We're not sure if this cost estimate is for 2 Luda DDG's only, or more. But if it was for 2 ships, then the high cost of $75 million per ship would indeed have been too high for PLAN to accept.

To be fair, the suite would've included more than just the SAMs. It'd prolly have included the Type 965 AKE-2 air search radar, Type 992Q/993 low level air search radar, Type 909 tracking radar, Twin-arm trainable launcher, below-deck magazine, and a large supply of Sea Dart munitions.

On the British Type 82 DDG, they installed 1 x GWS30 system with 40 rounds (550kg each), and 1 x Ikara ASW system with 32 rounds. But the Type 82 DDG was a 7,700 ton displacement ship. The Luda is 3,670 ton displacement.

Assuming if the cost was acceptable to PLAN, would it have been realistic to mount the Sea Dart SAM system on the 051? If so, would there have been sufficient below-deck (or under elevated platform?) space to store 40 rounds? 20 rounds?

IMO if we look at the later refitted 051 Ludas with 16 x YJ-83, those missiles prolly weight 1+ ton each including the shipping container, which adds to 16+ tons of weight. From a simplistic point of view, if we were to remove all the SSM's some some existing weapons, it is possible to build an "air defense" 051 Luda with 1 x GWS 30 system + 20 rounds, 1 x main gun, 4 x AA, plus some minor weapon systems (MLRS) and necessary radar suites for the SAM system.

If they had imported the Ikara ASROC system, it'd have been possible to build an ASW 051 Luda with 1 x Ikara ASROC + 16-32 rounds, 1 x main gun, 4 x AA, 2x3 torpedos, ASW MLRS, aft helicopter deck/hanger, and ASW helicopter.

Both the AD and ASW variants would have weak anti-surface capability (lacking SSM's), but would've greatly improved the air defense and ASW capability. The Sea Cat SAM has longer range, combined with other ships equipped with the Sea Crotale, it'd have provided fleet multi-layer air defense by late 80's to early 90's. But unfortunately the cost was just too high.

isthvan

Well IMHO AWD Luda version fitted whit Sea Dare was quite possible.

Soviet navy had 9 Kotlin-SAM class destroyers armed whit Volna-M (naval version of SA-3) and AWD Luda would probably look similar… As for number of missiles I doubt that they would have more then 22 rounds (again similar to Kotlin-SAM)…

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"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. " Marcus Aurelius

adeptitus

I didn't know that. Thanks for the info!

Here's what I found from wiki SA-N-1 entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA-N-1

Works on naval version M-1 Volna (SA-N-1) started in 1956, along with works on land version. It was first mounted on a rebuilt Kotlin class destroyer (Project 56K) Bravyi and tested in 1962. In the same year, the system was accepted. Basic missile was V-600 (or 4K90) (range: from 4 to 15 km, altitude: from 0.1 to 10 km). Fire control and guidance is carried out by 4R90 Yatagan radar, with 5 parabolic antennas on a common head. Only one target can be engaged at a time (or two, for ships fitted with two Volna systems). In case of emergency, Volna could be also used against naval targets, due to short response time.

The first launcher type was two-missile ZIF-101, with a magazine for 16 missiles. From 1963 an improved two-missile launcher ZIF-102 with a magazine for 32 missiles was introduced to new ship classes. From 1967 Volna systems were upgraded to Volna-M (SA-N-1B) with V-601 (4K91) missiles (range: 4-22 km, altitude: 0.1-14 km).

In 1974-1976 some systems were modernized to Volna-P standard, with additional TV target tracking channel and bigger immunity against jamming. Then, improved V-601M missiles were introduced, with lower minimal attack altitude against aerial target (system Volna-N).

<snip>

The SA-N-1 naval version is deployed on Kresta I class cruisers and Kashin class destroyers (two installations each, fore and aft), as well as Kynda class cruisers, Kotlin-SAM class destroyers and Kanin class destroyers (one installation each, aft). Some Indian frigates also carry the SA-N-1 system.

Missile specs:
http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviatio...siles/sam.html
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/s125.htm

S-125 Neva, upgraded "Pechora" version:
Guidance: Command-Control
Range: 6km-35km
Altitude: 100-300 meters - 15 km
Speed: Mach 2
Weight: 600 kg
Warhead: 60 kg
Length: 670 cm
Diameter: 70 cm
span: 150 cm

Kotlin SAM specs according to FAS:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/56.htm
Project 56-A Kotlin-SAM
Tonnage: 3,600 ton loaded
Speed: 36 knots
Dimension: 126.5 meters long, 13 meters beam, 4.6 meters draft
Propulsion: 2 shaft, 72,000 hp steam turbines
Crew: 285-300
Missiles: 1 x Twin SA-N-1 Goa launcher in aft position + 16-22 missiles in under-deck autoloader
Guns: 1 x dual 130mm gun, 1 x quad 45mm gun, 4 x twin 30mm AA
Torpedos: 5 x 21" torpedos

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Potential 051 Luda-SAM version:
Displacement: ~3,670 tons
Dimentions: 132m length, 12.8m bean, 4.6m draft
Speed: 32 knots
Crew: 280-300
SAM: 1 x Twin-arm GWS30 Sea Dart launcher in elevated aft position, with 20 x Sea Dart missiles stored in under-deck magazines w/auto-loader. Fire control provided by Type 965 AKE-2 air search, Type 992Q/993 low level search, & 2 x Type 909 tracking. Can attack 2 targets at same time.
Gun: 1 x dual-130mm gun, 2-4 x Type 76A dual-37mm AA,
ASW: 2 x Type 75 ASW MLRS + 2 x decoy MLRS

This ship is basically a Luda with aft weapons replaced by Sea Dart SAM super-structure. The SSM's are removed to save weight.

If the PLAN had acquired such a system, they'd have been able to deployed 2 Luda's with medium-range Luda missiles, 2 Luda's with short-range Sea Crotale, plus several surface-warfare Luda's equipped with SSM's in early 1990s.

isthvan

Well regarding missile magazine capacity on Kotlin-SAM there are few unknowns. Most sources state that Kotlin-SAM had 22 missile magazine while polish sources state that Varshava (ex. soviet Spavedljivij) had 18 missile magazine…

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"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. " Marcus Aurelius

planeman

I think that HMS Bristol (Type-82) is misleading as the measure of how big a ship needed to be to acommodate Sea Dart since the Sheffield class (Type-42) was initially only 4,350t and had a 22 missile magazine.

Type-42 Batch 1, 125m long:


Type-82, 154m long, 7,700t, 40 Sea Dart:

Gollevainen

actually the missile capacity would be only 16 if we believe Convays all the world fighting ships (which is really the most potent source of navel matters). Two launchers were used Zif-101 and Zif-102, the later having 32 missile magazine but it was only fielded by project 57bis class (kanin) class large asw ships, the zif-101 onboard Kotlins, Kashins, Krestas and Kyndas could only accomodate 16 missiles....thougth seems like some sources giving those ships (partically for the cruisers) particulars mentions the 22 missiles, perhaps that was after some sort basic overhauls that all Soviet ships serving long went trough...

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isthvan

There are many speculations and controversies surrounding Kotlin-SAM missile capacity. I know that Convays states only 16 missiles but on the other hand Jane’s states 22 missiles and Polish sources have stated 18 missiles…

I agree that it is possible that Conveys stated basic configuration and that Soviets later improved missile capacity…

__________________
"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. " Marcus Aurelius

adeptitus

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...C-95-01821.jpg

Is that a towed array sonar in the back of that Luda III DDG?

planeman

Ok, here's my artist's impression of a Luda fitted out with 1970/80s British kit that might have been exported:

The Sea Dart replaces the rear gun turret and a Vicker's gun the forward turret. Both sets of SSMs are removed, the foward one to make room for additional operations rooms and the rear one to make way for an Ikara ASW missile launcher (maybe 12 rounds?). I've also distributed 4 30mm gun turrets around the ship - similar to those on the British built Alvand class corvettes supplied to Iran around this time.

The only British anti-ship missiles that might have been exported around then were Sea Killer and Sea Skua - neither of which were really worth the deckspace. The Sea Eagle was too new IMO.

adeptitus

FYI, there is no reports that the PRC had negotiated with Australia to import the Ikara ASROC system. It was just a "what if" configuration on my part.

If the PLAN had acquired the Ikara system, I don't think it'd fit on the same ship with the GWS30 Sea Dart. Here's my speculated/what-if configurations:


Luda III (051S), Air-defense ship (2 units)
Forward: 1xDual-130mm DP, 2xDual-37mm AAA, 2xASW MLRS
Center: 4xYJ-8 (C801) SSM, 1xTriple A244 Torpedos, 2xDecoy MLRS
Aft: GWS30 Twin-arm launcher + 20 Sea Dart SAM (underdeck magazine), 2xdual-37mm AAA

Basically the aft section of the ship look like the Kotlin-SAM version with a big elevated superstructure/housing. Twin-arm launcher on top and 20 x SAMs under. If the weapon systems are too heavy, then remove the SSM's.

Later modernization refit:
Replace YJ-8 with YJ-83
Replace old 4xDual-37mm AAA with newer ones
Replace 1x3 A244 torpedos with 2x3 Yu-7
Add HQ-7 SAM in forward deck


Luda IV (051?) ASW ship (2 units)
Forward: 1xDual-130mm DP, 2xDual-37mm AAA, 2xASW MLRS
Center: 4xYJ-81, 2x3 A244 ASW torpedos, 2xDecoy MLRS
Aft: Ikara ASROC + 16 rounds, 2xDual-37mm MLRS, Helicopter deck + hanger, ESS-1 VDS
Aircraft: 1 x ASW helicopter

This variant has a helicopter deck and elevated helicopter hanger/superstrucutre that extends toward the center. On top sits the Ikara ASROC launcher, and under it (behind hanger) is the missile magazine. To the rear of the ship is a VDS towed sonar. If it's over-loaded, remove the SSM's.

Modernization refit of this variant would be similiar to the 051S, with HQ-7 added to front, AAA's upgraded, A244 replaced by Yu-7, and YJ-81 replaced by YJ-83.

==============

I think the above 4 ships would've costed PLAN couple hundred million dollars in 1980s. It'd have been the most expensive PLAN ship ever built to date. Combined with older Luda-I's armed with SSMs, and a pair of Luda I command variant with Sea Crotale SAM installed, it'd have provided PLAN with greater multi-mission capability.


p.s. I think the RN ships from same era had much higher endurance requirement, and had to be bigger/heavier with more supplies/fuel to defend British territory overseas.

isthvan

Planeman that’s quite nice concept.
I personally would look at something similar to Kotlin-SAM since I don’t think that Sea Dart launcher on place of rear gun would have enough room for missile magazine. Also I would scrap Ikara and replace Vickers 114mm gun with French 100mm…

__________________
"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. " Marcus Aurelius

planeman

An Italianised Luda, circa 1985:

A lightweight OTO-Melara 76mm DP gun, Aspide (Sea Sparrow) SAM, Tesco SSMs, twin 40mm AAA turrets and Whitehead torpedos. A Single helicopter - probably AB212 or A109.