SinoDefence Forum

ahho

and also most native indian had a saying when the european arrived (i am not too exact on what they said but context is similar) "those who came will leave"
this context said by natives made many scientist to believe that there was contact before the european came

Kampfwagen

That's likely to mean anything. Could mean forigeners, could mean other tribes from parts of America.

Finn McCool

I think that commmon sense would dictate that in a thousands of years of history there would be at least some contact from Old World to new before Columbus, considering how many sea faring cultures there are and the shape of ocean currents. The Canary Islands in the Atlantic were inhabited by a population of tribes called the Guanches that were not African, but rather had European features but Stone Age technology and spoke no language even remotely similar to European languages at the time of Spanish colonization in the 1400s. This proves that the Phonecians or possibly the Cartheginians landed there and colonized them. It is also believed that there were trading colonies of Romans in Indian port cities, so it is very possible that people made it to the New World from the Old too.

Here is the URL of the wikipedia list of articles about pre-columbian oceanic contact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...ceanic_contact

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FuManChu

Finn, here's my previous post again - no point writing a new one.

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Finn McCool

I can't say that I believe a lot of what is written in the book. That the Chinese established colonies in the New World years before the Europeans got there is too fantastic to be believed. But I think that it is quite possible that a Chinese fleet made it up the coast of Africa, possibly over to South America and maybe even made it back across the Pacfic to China. But I don't think that they made it to the North Pole and established contact with the Incas, reached the Carribean and Australia and some of the other more extreme things Menzies claims.

Another thing-of all the members at SDF I think that I would be one of the last ones to be "naive" about history. I use more historical examples to support my arguements than anyone else here on SDF, and I've studied and enjoyed history all my life.

__________________
Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter.
-Winston Churchill

FuManChu

You said "a very real possibility" in the post I quoted, which I felt was far too generous (though I didn't meant to be too personal). I believe Chinese traders reached Africa and visited the Middle East, but I don't believe in the rest.

As someone who takes historical research very seriously, I have to acknowledge the overwhelming amount of criticism levelled at Menzies (criticism which he continuously fails to counter).

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"Japan is as much of a threat to China, as China is to Japan."

--FuManChu

Gaginang

i am the descendent of teochew tribe of southern china (also called gaginag) we are famous for sea faring, as mention in the book of 1421, of the mountain of in south american name (arkon ga oui) meaning my great father teaching me.

i find this fascinating to have these peoples name their mountain in my language, i doubt it would be coincident. but the more i read about my history i find it plausable to believe my peoples properly got all the way to south america. since in the old days, our peoples travel by boat for years before comming back home. and many of our peoples settles around south east asia and in australia before european even got there.

i don't see why the chinese can't travelled and settle in south american and any other place around the world, since we knew how to use the compass, read the stars, knew how to sail up wind.

plus these days history is all white washed. if you want to know more about history learn some indian, the chinese and arab because they are the best sea farer way way way long before left their caves.

ps there is no reneson, they just learn it from the asian.

FuManChu

If he has, that would be even more reason to pour cold water on the theory. Menzies sounds convincing to those that:

a) Want to believe.
b) Have no awareness of poorly written history.

Re-read my post #64 and read the articles mentioned.

__________________
"Japan is as much of a threat to China, as China is to Japan."

--FuManChu

FuManChu

It's isn't that it was impossible it's that Gavin Menzies does a very, very bad job at making it convincing to people that understand historical matters.

If you want to say something is the case you have to provide a lot of evidence to say so, especially if it is a wide-ranging claim. You can't just put forward a vaguely plausible theory and then demand people prove you're wrong (as if you can prove a negative anyway).

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"Japan is as much of a threat to China, as China is to Japan."

--FuManChu

crobato

Well, the people in Galapagos Islands have been genetically, linguistically, and culturally linked to the Pacific Austronesian peoples, which originally came from the non-Han aboringinal tribes in Southern China before they began a long sea ward migration. We're talking of the ethnic branch of people that spawned Malaysians, Indonesians, Filipinos, Maori, Hawaiians, Micronesians, who at one point of time, developed uncanny navigation skills based on observing star patterns, and developed small fast sailing vessels using double hulled catamaran designs.

FreeAsia2000

Did Columbus discover America ?...

I think we all need to calm down. At the end of the day it dosn't
matter. HUMANITY discovered America.

Unless we want to go on a racial supremacy bash.

BLUEJACKET

CHECK THIS BOOK- PALE INK, Two Ancient Records of Chinese
Exploration in America by Mertz, Henriette
http://www.amazon.com/Pale-ink-Chine.../dp/B0007E9852
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-29022375.html
http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue1...erwriters.html
When China Ruled the Seas: The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne, 1405-1433
http://www.amazon.com/When-China-Rul.../dp/0195112075
/ref=pd_sim_b_2/104-1968025-6842301?ie=UTF8
http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news141.htm

BUDDHIST MISSION VISITS AMERICA BEFORE COLUMBUS http://www.saigon.com/~hoasen/mission.htm
Ultimate Journey: Retracing the Path of an Ancient Buddhist Monk Who Crossed Asia in Search of Enlightenment. - Review - book review
http://atheism.about.com/od/bookrevi...ateJourney.htm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...18/ai_75496693
http://www.amazon.com/Sailing-Paradi.../dp/0684812975
http://www.2s2.com/chapmanresearch/u...ts/horses.html

BLUEJACKET instead of posting all these links that few read how about posting your thoughts on the subject in this thread. Thank you. bd popeye moderator

SampanViking

ITs also an irrelevant arguement. Vinland was a Viking discovery back in 1000 AD, courtesy of Leif Eiriksen. I have reminded all American members before that they are still colonial possesions of Iceland and that the rent is long, long overdue

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BLUEJACKET

Iceland itself was a colony of Denmark, and Greenland still is. The natives wiped many of them out and the rest still alive left for good. Rhetorical question: how well did those Viking descendeants lived under the Danes?

GermanChinese

To be correct he never set foot on the american shore ^^, just st foot on some carbbean island and i may remeber my collegues that i lot evidence suggest that the first europeans that have visited america are actually vikings .

So if any asian or micronesian tribes actually have visted america beforehand i can't deny it or claim it. but may be possible