Yue Fei vs Genghis Khan

Originally Posted by solarz

Here's an interesting scenario: what if Yue Fei was born 100 years later (or Genghis Khan 100 years earlier), would he have been able to stop the Mongol Horde from invading Song?

On a related note, we all know the advantages of the Mongol army, but what were some of the technological advantages that the Song army had? Under a good general, such as Yue Fei, would the Song army have been able to compete with the Mongol army?

I seriously doubted it. It is not always the will of one man. The entire country's unity should be there. As we could see, Yue Fei is a good general, but the overall Song's management from the emperor down, is already shaky. That is why, the Song with all their technological advancement couldn't stop the Liao, then the Jin from taking more than half of their country.

Plus... I think the Mongol's cavalry (which was practically equivalent to present day's MBT) was faster and more flexible... they could get to places much quicker as compared to Yue Fei's infantry. Although Yue Fei's army had lots of anti-cavalry weaponries, but I seriously doubt that it would be an easy task to defend against quick cavalry strikes from a number of different locations at once.

Actually it was basically like today's warfare, whereby an armoured unit charge is basically very difficult to withstand even with the defenders' armed with anti-tank rockets or missiles.

Originally Posted by rhino123

I seriously doubted it. It is not always the will of one man. The entire country's unity should be there. As we could see, Yue Fei is a good general, but the overall Song's management from the emperor down, is already shaky. That is why, the Song with all their technological advancement couldn't stop the Liao, then the Jin from taking more than half of their country.

Plus... I think the Mongol's cavalry (which was practically equivalent to present day's MBT) was faster and more flexible... they could get to places much quicker as compared to Yue Fei's infantry. Although Yue Fei's army had lots of anti-cavalry weaponries, but I seriously doubt that it would be an easy task to defend against quick cavalry strikes from a number of different locations at once.

Actually it was basically like today's warfare, whereby an armoured unit charge is basically very difficult to withstand even with the defenders' armed with anti-tank rockets or missiles.

First, the Mongol cavalry is more of a skirmisher than an MBT. In any situation where they have to fight heavy cavalry head on, they suffered heavy casualties. Their specialty is hit-and-run and ambush tactics.

Secondly, the reason Yue Fei is legendary is because he was able to achieve his victories DESPITE a corrupt, ineffectual, and ultimately even hostile government. Had the Song emperor not recalled Yue Fei, it is quite possible that he would've rewrote the history of China.

Isn't most of the expansion of Mongol Empire attributed to Kublai Khan not Chinggis?

Genghis Khan has never sent troops to attack the Song Dynasty, therefore, no matter when Yue Fei was born, he was impossible to compete with Genghis Khan.
if Yue Fei was born 120 years later, he would be possible with the contest of Kublai Khan.

so, the thread title should be " Yue Fei vs Kublai Khan".

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Originally Posted by solarz

Secondly, the reason Yue Fei is legendary is because he was able to achieve his victories DESPITE a corrupt, ineffectual, and ultimately even hostile government. Had the Song emperor not recalled Yue Fei, it is quite possible that he would've rewrote the history of China.

I will not contest with you on the cavalry tactics in this case. Not at this moment until I have the time to think things over.

But what I am more interested in was your second point right now. We all agreed that Yue Fei is a great general and a great tacticians. But Song is declining and the government is downright useless.

What make you think that half way through the campaign, Song government will not recall Yue Fei and history will rewrite itself?

People say that an empire has to collapse from within before being toppled by others. So yeah, it's not the effort of one man, but the condition of the entire nation. If Genghi Khan was born in the early Song, he would have no chance of doing anything because Song generals would have such a tight grib on the Mongol tribes that any minor uprise would be crushed in no time. Same would be said of the Qing dynasty. If the same Manchurian cavalry that destroyed the Ming dynasty decided to attack Ming dynasty in the 1400's when Yongle was the Emperor, they would be crushed easily. The reason that they succeeded is that the Chinese dynasties, be it Song or Ming, were so corrupt and weak, they had so much to worry about within China and did not have time to pay attention to those tribes. This would give these tribes ample time to grow and mature. eventually, they were able to gather enough force that no one could stop. The same would also be true in ancient Roman empire. I don't believe for a second that the Huns would have any chance if they attacked Rome with Julius Caesar in power.

Originally Posted by rhino123

I will not contest with you on the cavalry tactics in this case. Not at this moment until I have the time to think things over.

But what I am more interested in was your second point right now. We all agreed that Yue Fei is a great general and a great tacticians. But Song is declining and the government is downright useless.

What make you think that half way through the campaign, Song government will not recall Yue Fei and history will rewrite itself?

Not all Southern Song emperors were corrupt and useless. Some, such as Gao Zong's son， wanted to recover the lost territories, but they had no good generals under their command.

In any case, the political aspect is irrelevant. What I'm interested in is the military aspect. Suppose Yue Fei was given free rein of his army, and he met the Mongols in a fair campaign, how would his army fair against the Mongol horsmen that conquered half of Europe? It doesn't matter if it's Genghis or Kublai at their lead, as both are excellent generals.

Corruption is ultimately the cause of the fall of Song, but more immediately it's because they underestimated the Mongols.
The mongols had no chance of winning with their standard equip, the Song knew this and thought they were safe.
But Mongols recruited defected Song generals and Middle Eastern engineers, they adapt to naval warfares as well as bringing in heavy Siege from the middle east, which turned the battle in their favor.

If they Mongols actually gave battle then they would have been overwhelmed by the Song under Yue Fei.
The problem is Mongols are highly mobile and have nothing better to do, they can't do anything constructive so they spend their lives(no lives) harassing defenseless civilians, that's why they are so hard to counter.

Originally Posted by xywdx

If they Mongols actually gave battle then they would have been overwhelmed by the Song under Yue Fei.
The problem is Mongols are highly mobile and have nothing better to do, they can't do anything constructive so they spend their lives(no lives) harassing defenseless civilians, that's why they are so hard to counter.

Heh, that's an interesting way to put things. However, can you elaborate on why the Mongols would've been overwhelmed by Song under Yue Fei? After all, we're talking about the same Mongols who swept across the entire Middle East and Eastern Europe with only 20 000 men.

This actually brings me to another question: why did the Jin and Middle Eastern states fold so quickly under the Mongol army, while the Song resisted for over 10 years?

If it was just an issue of fortification, I would say that the Middle Easterners also had access to advanced fortification and technology, not to mention that the Jin had access to all the fortifications of northern China, in addition to the technological know-how of the Song.

Originally Posted by solarz

First, the Mongol cavalry is more of a skirmisher than an MBT. In any situation where they have to fight heavy cavalry head on, they suffered heavy casualties. Their specialty is hit-and-run and ambush tactics.

Secondly, the reason Yue Fei is legendary is because he was able to achieve his victories DESPITE a corrupt, ineffectual, and ultimately even hostile government. Had the Song emperor not recalled Yue Fei, it is quite possible that he would've rewrote the history of China.

Not exactly, although Mongol calvary is famous for its hit-and-run and ambush tactics with light calvary, it did have well-armored heavy calvary and use them wisely. In many battles particuliarly those against European lords, the Mongol army delivered their final lethal blow with their heavy calvary after they managed to wear down the European army´s momentum by eliminating its mobile units.

Genghis is light years away from Yue Fei, cannot compare both, watch the Genghis Khan Tv series, 30 chapters. Very enlightening. English subtitle version available at Amazon.com.

Dont know what is the use of comparing two peopple who lived so in different eras, commanded different armies, fought for different ethicity under different situations. One thing I know for sure is that Mongolians are very brutual and couragous, and they also have a bigger build than the most average Chinese people(possibly due to consuming mostly meat and diary product for their diet) But we all know the Brain is definitely more powerful than the Muscle.

Originally Posted by solarz

Heh, that's an interesting way to put things. However, can you elaborate on why the Mongols would've been overwhelmed by Song under Yue Fei? After all, we're talking about the same Mongols who swept across the entire Middle East and Eastern Europe with only 20 000 men.

Well simply because of the superior technology of the Song dynasty, especially archery.
The combination of pikes + crossbows are extremely difficult to overcome by Mongol cavalry.
The reason you don't see many major defeats on the Mongol side is because they are highly mobile, they can get out of the fight if the battle goes badly for them, but the same can't be said for the Song army.
If it was a fight to the last man then I would put my money on the Song, but if it was a hit and run combat including attacking civilian targets then I think Mongols would ultimately win.

Originally Posted by solarz

This actually brings me to another question: why did the Jin and Middle Eastern states fold so quickly under the Mongol army, while the Song resisted for over 10 years?

If it was just an issue of fortification, I would say that the Middle Easterners also had access to advanced fortification and technology, not to mention that the Jin had access to all the fortifications of northern China, in addition to the technological know-how of the Song.

The Jin was defeated largely because they were dominant for so long that their military started to slack off, in the end the Mongols could do everything the Jin can and better.
Another major contributing factor is that during the defeat of Jin the Mongols and Song actually allied with each other, this pretty much ended any chance of a Jin come back.
One thing the Song had over the Jin for defense was the "fire stick", which uses gunpowder to propel a small projectile(usually metal) through a long tube at high velocities for deadly impact. This weapon was probably the deadliest archery weapon at that time, it basically made it near impossible to attack the city without taking massive casualties.

Not sure about the middle east, I would think it was because they couldn't adapt to the tactics developed in the conflict of central and eastern Asia.

The Ming fought 25 campaigns against the northern yuan, the result is the massive defeat and slaughter of 500,000 men as well as the capture of the Zhengtong emperor at Tumu. Watch miniseries " 1449..." .
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