Why was Yue Fei killed?

Originally Posted by vesicles

1) At the time when Yue Fei was at the border of Jin and Song and was about to attack the homeland of Jin, both captured emperors already died in captivity. The new emperor did not have to worry a bit about giving up his throne. Additionally, even any of them was still alive, it would be impossible for any of them to get back to the throne. they had been seen as the emperors who lost the nation to the Jin. As losers, it would be impossible for them to gather support to get the throne back. Also, the new emperor would be seen as a great emperor who recovered the glory of the dynasty, on par with Liu Xiu of the Han dynasty. He would be considered untouchable. As an emperor who managed to get half of the nation back in working order and out of chaos, he should be smart enough to understand this.

I subscribe to the first theory. After all, Qin Hui was a 宰相，一人之下，万人之上. It is extremely doubtful that the Jin could have had any wealth large enough to bribe him. Why would he ever want Yue Fei to fail, when he had far more to gain from supporting Yue Fei's success?

I suppose it's possible that he had some hidden grudge against Yue Fei that history didn't record, but even then it seemed unlikely. Song at the time was experiencing a period of revival, which indicates that the Song Emperor was not entirely incompetent. It's doubtful that Qin Hui could have had enough influence with the emperor to frame a general as famous as Yue Fei. Furthermore, as you have indicated, had Qin Hui actually wanted to frame Yue Fei, why did he give him a "mo xu you" crime?

This strongly indicates to me that Qin Hui, being the flatterer that he is recorded as, was simply trying to curry the Emperor's favor. He felt that with the Emperor's backing, he had no need of even creating a false crime in order to arrest Yue Fei. This goes back to the idea that the arrest and execution of Yue Fei was ordered by the Emperor himself.

Previously, I had believed the popular explanation that the Emperor didn't want Yue Fei to rescue the two captured Emperors. However, you are right: those two Emperors were dead already by the time Yue Fei as arrested!

There is one explanation that still supports the theory: even though the captured Emperors were dead, they had heirs. Song Gaozong (Yue Fei's Emperor) was from a different branch of the imperial family, and perhaps he feared that by bringing back the captured imperial heirs, his own throne would be threatened. I think that you may be putting to much faith on the feelings of the peasantry. An Emperor who was at war had a lot of power due to his mobilized military. Even Yue Fei himself had participated in the crushing of many peasant rebellions. In fact, Yue Fei might not even have been very popular among the peasants before his death.

BTW, did you happen upon this article?

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Because YUE FEI is threat to the throne, especially if he was able to defeat the Jing.

Don't you guys remembered how the Song succeed from Zhou. The Song emperor came to power as a general of Zhou.

Before YUE FEI, another famous general 狄青（ DiQIng) was literally scared to death ( took a while ) because a rumor of he was interested in the throne. That show you how the generals/heroes were been treated during the Song dynasty.

Emperor Gaozong of Song might not be incompetent ( from the historical records he was ), but he certainly didn't think he can control yuefei and other generals other than killing.
Yuefei's death was followed by political cleansing on the other generals left from previous regime( Gaozong's brother, father).
Generals were more royal to the country than Gaozong; they were also the one brought Gaozong to power. So Gaozong didn't feel safe knowing they could also bring him down. Qinhui is just a political tool used by Gaozong; who exchanged his political stability for country's security.

Originally Posted by solarz

There is one explanation that still supports the theory: even though the captured Emperors were dead, they had heirs. Song Gaozong (Yue Fei's Emperor) was from a different branch of the imperial family, and perhaps he feared that by bringing back the captured imperial heirs, his own throne would be threatened. I think that you may be putting to much faith on the feelings of the peasantry. An Emperor who was at war had a lot of power due to his mobilized military. Even Yue Fei himself had participated in the crushing of many peasant rebellions. In fact, Yue Fei might not even have been very popular among the peasants before his death.

I can accept this explanation. By the time of his capturing, the younger emperor was already mature and he should have heir. The new emperor, Gaozong, was believed to his brother. However, Song dynasty seems to have no problem with brothers taking over the throne. The founding emperor was succeeded by his brother. So Gaozong should not worry about the heir of his brother asking the throne back if they were brought back. He could flat out say no and give his cousins some fancy title and be done with it, like how his ancestor did. Since there was precedence, Gaozong would have no problem doing it again.

Originally Posted by solarz

BTW, did you happen upon this article?

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Hmmmm... That sounds a lot like tabloid than educated guess/hypothesizing. The whole story about how his mother slept with the emperor and got out the palace seems like day-dreaming to me. There is simply no evidence for any of this to have happened. The whole thing is based on the assumption that Yue Fei's mother made up the story about his father. However, Yue Fei had a father and no one seems to doubt that was his biological father. In comparison, there were rumors about his son, Yue Yun, about whether Yue Yun was Yue Fei's biological son or adopted. Yue Yun's wife was even trying to defend her husband's position as the oldest son of Yue Fei. The old Yue lived a long life and didn't die until Yue Fei was well into his successful military career. There was well-documented case of Yue Fei quitting the military to pay respect to his father. So there is no reason to doubt that Yue Fei had a legitimate father.

Also, the part that his mother gave him the first name of Fei to suggest he was not the son of the Yue family was also nonsense. Fei was a very popular first name in ancient China. It means fly, and suggests successful and glorious life. So many named their sons "Fei".

Also, the part about his tattoo, as an evidence of his royal blood, is also nonsense. There was no mentioning of his tattoo until the late Ming dynasty. So mostly like, Yue Fei had no tattoo on his back.

In my opinion, this piece is simply "since no one knows what's going on, let me make up a story.''

---------- Post added at 05:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:39 PM ----------

Originally Posted by PhageHunter

Because YUE FEI is threat to the throne, especially if he was able to defeat the Jing.

Don't you guys remembered how the Song succeed from Zhou. The Song emperor came to power as a general of Zhou.

Before YUE FEI, another famous general 狄青（ DiQIng) was literally scared to death ( took a while ) because a rumor of he was interested in the throne. That show you how the generals/heroes were been treated during the Song dynasty.

Emperor Gaozong of Song might not be incompetent ( from the historical records he was ), but he certainly didn't think he can control yuefei and other generals other than killing.
Yuefei's death was followed by political cleansing on the other generals left from previous regime( Gaozong's brother, father).
Generals were more royal to the country than Gaozong; they were also the one brought Gaozong to power. So Gaozong didn't feel safe knowing they could also bring him down. Qinhui is just a political tool used by Gaozong; who exchanged his political stability for country's security.

yes, there was cleansing, but Yue was the only guy being killed. And it seems the emperor was so determined, he not only killed Yue, but his son and his favorite general who was rumored to be his son-in-law. So there was definitely something special about Yue Fei.

Yes, military was treated badly in the Song dynasty, and so was every Chinese dynasty, even including CCP now. However, Song was actually the most humane. While other dynasties almost always killed off all the commanding generals, Song seemed determined to keep most of them alive. There was the famous story about the founding emperor of Song inviting all his generals to a banquet and nicely asked them to quit. This, of course, compares with how the Ming founding emperor invited his generals to a banquet and blowing up the whole building.

There were mainly 4 major generals at the time who were like the 4 pillars of the Song dynasty. Yue Fei was simply one of them and could be given the same treatment. Yet, he was the only one killed.

Even if Gaozong wanted to eliminate the threat, he could've done it after Yue Fei destroyed Jin and got all the land back, as the famous saying goes: "taking apart the bridge after passing it". However, at the time, Gaozong and the Song dynasty was still in the process of passing. Why would he risk so much?

Originally Posted by vesicles

Even if Gaozong wanted to eliminate the threat, he could've done it after Yue Fei destroyed Jin and got all the land back, as the famous saying goes: "taking apart the bridge after passing it". However, at the time, Gaozong and the Song dynasty was still in the process of passing. Why would he risk so much?

EXACTLY! The timing of the recall is the most suspicious part of this affair. However you look at it, there is no good reason why the Song Emperor would want to kill a general who is winning a war for him, in the MIDDLE of said war! The only logical explanation is that Gaozong feared something from Yue Fei's success, feared it so much, that he was willing to debase himself to a foreign ruler in order to prevent it.

Actually,

I have always found the Song short sighted;

What we must remeber is that Song was winning the war against Jin and eventually won it in 1234. The concept of a buffer state didn't pop into the Song's mind. Allying with the Mongols to defeat the Jin is stupid.

But the sad thing is, Yuefei is one of many Chinese generals befalling the same fate: Yuan Chonghuan; Wu Zixu another.

"yes, there was cleansing, but Yue was the only guy being killed. And it seems the emperor was so determined, he not only killed Yue, but his son and his favorite general who was rumored to be his son-in-law. So there was definitely something special about Yue Fei. "

Because Yue is most talented of all, he was the leader of generals and military that favored war. No emperor wants to see that happen,
and yes for some reason of unknown Gaozong really disliked Yue.

"Even if Gaozong wanted to eliminate the threat, he could've done it after Yue Fei destroyed Jin and got all the land back, as the famous saying goes: "taking apart the bridge after passing it". However, at the time, Gaozong and the Song dynasty was still in the process of passing. Why would he risk so much?

Generals gained power and influenced through war, Gaozong didn't want to see that happen.To him, generals were his enemies, not Jing.
At this time, Song already figured out Jing was not much a problem, had Yue continued his war, there wouldn't be a country called jing.
Gaozong got the throne by luck because he was the only prince escaped, generals that supported him only because his bloodline, they weren't royal to him. Thus, he wanted to end the war and removed generals in power to secure his power immediately.　Since he was young and inexperienced ( 21 I think ), he used a radical method, hence the killing. If he was more experienced, the entire world history would have changed.

Yes, military was treated badly in the Song dynasty, and so was every Chinese dynasty, even including CCP now. However, Song was actually the most humane. While other dynasties almost always killed off all the commanding generals, Song seemed determined to keep most of them alive. There was the famous story about the founding emperor of Song inviting all his generals to a banquet and nicely asked them to quit. This, of course, compares with how the Ming founding emperor invited his generals to a banquet and blowing up the whole building.

Had those generals hesitated a little, their heads would be on the plate. And the story about how Ming taizu killing his generals were exaggerated later by the Manchu Qing. Many of Ming Generals died long before the story was taken place.

Increased internal system stability in exchange for reduced external power projection potential, old story.

The framed general must not have attempted any coup. He was in a position to be able to do this. In order to maintain control in a dictatorial system, you need a touch of unpredictability = insanity in order to make it difficult to feel safe plotting against you. The plotters have no reliable prediction of tomorrow and thus lack a concept about the upcoming situations (gives them an OODA-loop disadvantage). The higher up unpredictable strikes are conducted, the more intimidating they are. The emperor might have had no choice because having glorious generals around, free and alive, would enable dissidents to contact them and lever them into a systemic challenge to his rule. Great patriotism and not enough personal loyality was similar to plotting high-treason, the other way round would have been a perfect boot licker that usually agglomerates around dictators/monarchs.

One way out was tried by a Byzantine emperor (in longterm diplomatic contact with the Chinese courts) who became a physician and cared with great devotion for his officials, his generals and their families whenever wounds or illness struck. Did the Song emperor have alternatives for creating loyality or was he bound to go as "insane as Stalin's purges" in order to be safe on the throne?

Originally Posted by Kurt

Increased internal system stability in exchange for reduced external power projection potential, old story.

The framed general must not have attempted any coup. He was in a position to be able to do this. In order to maintain control in a dictatorial system, you need a touch of unpredictability = insanity in order to make it difficult to feel safe plotting against you. The plotters have no reliable prediction of tomorrow and thus lack a concept about the upcoming situations (gives them an OODA-loop disadvantage). The higher up unpredictable strikes are conducted, the more intimidating they are. The emperor might have had no choice because having glorious generals around, free and alive, would enable dissidents to contact them and lever them into a systemic challenge to his rule. Great patriotism and not enough personal loyality was similar to plotting high-treason, the other way round would have been a perfect boot licker that usually agglomerates around dictators/monarchs.

One way out was tried by a Byzantine emperor (in longterm diplomatic contact with the Chinese courts) who became a physician and cared with great devotion for his officials, his generals and their families whenever wounds or illness struck. Did the Song emperor have alternatives for creating loyality or was he bound to go as "insane as Stalin's purges" in order to be safe on the throne?

Well, Song emperors have been known to feel secure about their throne. There has been a story about an old man writing poem about himself becoming an emperor. He was captured and sent to the capital. After listening to the poem, the emperor simply laughed and let the old man go without any punishment. This seemed to only happen in the Song dynasty. Anytime other than the Song? The old man would have been executed, along with his entire family and everyone he ever knew.

It seems to me that Song emperors had more humane/quiet ways of dealing with powerful generals. From Yang's generals to even Heroes of Shui Hu (of the Liang Moutains), the Song emperors usually waited until the generals were completely done with their missions and then quietly dispatched them, either letting them go or giving them poisoned wine. The emperor who gave out poison wines to the generals of Liang Mountains after they wiped out other rebels was the grandfather of the emperor we are discussing. Gao Zong could've learned from his ancestors and do something more quiet. The kind of public execution of a glorious and widely admired general has never happened until Yue Fei and has never happened again since in the Song dynasty. And he was killed while in the middle of his mission. In fact, it has never happened in this manner in Chinese history.

Even the ruthless/evil emperors had to find some excuses to execute his generals, even in peace time. The most common excuse would be to plot against the empire. Many generals, including Han Xin, Xiao He, Zhou Bo and Zhang Liang (although he disappeared) in the Han dynasty; Hao JunJi in the Tang dynasty, etc. Yue Fei was never accused of any wrong-doing. He was the commanding general of almost half of Song's army. It would have been so easy to claim he was plotting against the empire. Let's face it, he did allow his army to be nicknamed "Yue's family army". The name alone is enough to suggest that he had unusual ambitions.

To me, it's got to be more than an emperor trying to secure his throne.

Originally Posted by vesicles

Well, Song emperors have been known to feel secure about their throne. There has been a story about an old man writing poem about himself becoming an emperor. He was captured and sent to the capital. After listening to the poem, the emperor simply laughed and let the old man go without any punishment. This seemed to only happen in the Song dynasty. Anytime other than the Song? The old man would have been executed, along with his entire family and everyone he ever knew.

It seems to me that Song emperors had more humane/quiet ways of dealing with powerful generals. From Yang's generals to even Heroes of Shui Hu (of the Liang Moutains), the Song emperors usually waited until the generals were completely done with their missions and then quietly dispatched them, either letting them go or giving them poisoned wine. The emperor who gave out poison wines to the generals of Liang Mountains after they wiped out other rebels was the grandfather of the emperor we are discussing. Gao Zong could've learned from his ancestors and do something more quiet. The kind of public execution of a glorious and widely admired general has never happened until Yue Fei and has never happened again since in the Song dynasty. And he was killed while in the middle of his mission. In fact, it has never happened in this manner in Chinese history.

Even the ruthless/evil emperors had to find some excuses to execute his generals, even in peace time. The most common excuse would be to plot against the empire. Many generals, including Han Xin, Xiao He, Zhou Bo and Zhang Liang (although he disappeared) in the Han dynasty; Hao JunJi in the Tang dynasty, etc. Yue Fei was never accused of any wrong-doing. He was the commanding general of almost half of Song's army. It would have been so easy to claim he was plotting against the empire. Let's face it, he did allow his army to be nicknamed "Yue's family army". The name alone is enough to suggest that he had unusual ambitions.

To me, it's got to be more than an emperor trying to secure his throne.

Before: Han Xin -> executed when fighting rebels.
From wiki:
After his demotion, Han Xin knew that Emperor Gaozu was beginning to distrust him and become more wary of him, because Han Xin had proven himself to be such a brilliant military leader that he even had the ability to seize Gaozu's empire for himself. Hence, Han Xin claimed to be ill and stayed at home most of the time to reduce Gaozu's suspicions. Around 197 BC, Chen Xi (Marquis of Yangxia) met Han Xin before leaving for Julu, requesting for Han's support in an uprising against the Han Dynasty. Not long later, Chen Xi rebelled and Gaozu personally led an army to suppress the rebellion.
While Gaozu was away, Empress Lü Zhi heard rumours of Han Xin's involvement in the rebellion, and she plotted with Xiao He to lure Han into a trap. Han Xin was arrested and executed in a torturous manner in Changle Palace,[2] along with his mother, wife and close relatives. Han Xin's clan was exterminated on the empress's orders as well. Upon his return from his campaign, Gaozu expressed both glee and regret when he learnt of Han Xin's death. He asked the empress for Han Xin's last words, which were, "I regret not listening to Kuai Tong's advice."
In legend, Gaozu once promised Han Xin that if he "faced Heaven and stood firm on Earth" (頂天立地; i.e. remained loyal) to the Han Dynasty, he would not have Han Xin killed by any weapon used by soldiers. Hence, when Han Xin was executed, he was hung inside a great bell and pierced to death with swords made from wood or bamboo. As such, when he died, Han Xin was neither "facing Heaven" (because his body was covered by the bell) nor "standing firm on Earth" (because he was suspended inside the bell), and was not killed by any weapon used by soldiers (soldiers do not use wooden or bamboo swords).

After: Yuan Chonghuan executed when fighting the Jin

From wiki:
The Chongzhen Emperor ordered Yuan's arrest during an audience with the Emperor on 13 January 1630. Despite little evidence, he was accused of collusion with the enemy and condemned to death by "slow slicing" at Ganshiqiao (甘石橋) in Beijing. When Yuan was asked for last words before his execution, he produced the poem: "A life's work always ends up in vain; half of my career seems to be in dreams. I do not worry about lacking brave warriors after my death, for my loyal spirit will continue to guard Liaodong." (一生事業總成空，半世功名在夢中。死後不愁無將勇，忠魂依舊保遼東！)
Yuan was mourned throughout most of the country outside Beijing and even in Joseon Korea. After his death, many regarded the Ming and their allies as extremely vulnerable to Manchu invasion.[2]
It was said that upon hearing of his apparent "betrayal", many Beijing residents hated him so much that they rushed to buy his body parts so they could eat them. He was left there after the torture, shouting for half a day before stopping.[3] His head, the only recognizable part after the torture, was taken outside the Inner City Wall by a city guard, whose surname is She, and buried near Guanqu Men. The guard's family have guarded it for generations since.[4] His tomb was recently renovated to become the Yuan Chonghuan Memorial.

Those are different. We can understand the reasons for those executions. Liu Bang was fearful of Han Xin's abilities, and Han Xin was only killed *after* securing Liu's throne. Yuan was killed because the Ming Emperor thought he was colluding with the enemy.

However, there is no evidence that suggests Song Gaozong mistrusted Yue Fei's loyalty. There seems to be no logical reason for Gaozong to stop Yue Fei in the eve of what would have been a great success for his own empire.

Maybe the fact that it took 12 gold plaques to order him back might have sealed the final decision from the emperor.

Originally Posted by solarz

Those are different. We can understand the reasons for those executions. Liu Bang was fearful of Han Xin's abilities, and Han Xin was only killed *after* securing Liu's throne. Yuan was killed because the Ming Emperor thought he was colluding with the enemy.

However, there is no evidence that suggests Song Gaozong mistrusted Yue Fei's loyalty. There seems to be no logical reason for Gaozong to stop Yue Fei in the eve of what would have been a great success for his own empire.

I would respectfully disagree.

Song Gaozong, sent 12 gold plaques to gain an audience (recall) Yui Fei - in any pusdo-conficious-military culture, that is a huge sign of disrespect.

Think about it, had Yuifei retaken kaifeng, they might have released the previous Song Emperor Qinzong held in captivity; hence start a civil war in the Song. So do Gaozong, see Yuifei's campaign as on the eve of a great success for his empire or does he see the impeding chaos of what if Yuifei won? I am not justifying Yuifei's execution, it was stupid and amoral; but Yuifei did pose a significant threat to the throne; if viewed from the military power stand point, and the "moral" standpoint of getting the previous emperor back.

Han Xin was killed during a period of revolt. Liubang was away campaigning during his execution, the battle had not been won.

Yuan, was fighting against the Manchus, which with full retrospect were the ones who ended the Ming a short time later. Had Yuan, been allowed to continue his campaign against the Jin, as had Yuifei been allowed to continue the fight against the Jin, history could have been very different.

Originally Posted by Lezt

I would respectfully disagree.

Song Gaozong, sent 12 gold plaques to gain an audience (recall) Yui Fei - in any pusdo-conficious-military culture, that is a huge sign of disrespect.

Think about it, had Yuifei retaken kaifeng, they might have released the previous Song Emperor Qinzong held in captivity; hence start a civil war in the Song. So do Gaozong, see Yuifei's campaign as on the eve of a great success for his empire or does he see the impeding chaos of what if Yuifei won? I am not justifying Yuifei's execution, it was stupid and amoral; but Yuifei did pose a significant threat to the throne; if viewed from the military power stand point, and the "moral" standpoint of getting the previous emperor back.

Han Xin was killed during a period of revolt. Liubang was away campaigning during his execution, the battle had not been won.

Yuan, was fighting against the Manchus, which with full retrospect were the ones who ended the Ming a short time later. Had Yuan, been allowed to continue his campaign against the Jin, as had Yuifei been allowed to continue the fight against the Jin, history could have been very different.

Yes, but my point was those emperors gave proper reasons for the execution. The reason sounded so real that people wanted to eat Yuan chonghuan's flesh. Yet, Gaozong never gave any reason for killing Yue Fei. The only thing that was remotely close to an excuse was "mo xu you". That, my friend, has never happened in Chinese history. Compounded with the fact that Yue Fei was middle of his mission, that became extremely strange.

Yes, Gaozong had every reason to feel threatened by Yue Fei. He had every reason to kill Yue Fei. That's not the point. The point was why did Gaozong not frame him? It should be almost like a second nature for any emperor to find an excuse to kill someone. Even some dumb ones knew how to do that. Even if he didn't know how to do it, Qin Hui surely would remind him. As talented a person as Qin Hui, he would not have missed this for the world. Yet, he did not give any excuse... Must be strange.

That was the mystery.

The emperor who gave out poison wines to the generals of Liang Mountains after they wiped out other rebels was the grandfather of the emperor we are discussing.

I think that only happened in the novel, there is no historical record of what happened to any of those generals. The actual historical record ends with their capture by the Song dynasty, no record at all of what happened to them beyond that. I think the part where they serve the Song dynasty is fictional.