Where will the future threat for China come from?

Originally Posted by Phead128

Siberian forest, water, minerals, and natural resources

Geez, all those things can be obtained without invading anyone. Trade. Else, wood can be grown, water can be purified from sea water, minerals can be mined from seabed.

Originally Posted by Kurt

Wouldn't it better fit China to raise new lands from the sea or settle Africa? Just in case it takes too long with the warp engine.
The best project for new land would be making the Taiwan Street dry, that eliminates lots of headaches as soon as it is accomplished.

Settle Africa? Right now Africans have had all that they can stand of the overbearing, arrogant Chinese. Africans are not in the mood to host another round of colonization. China better look else where.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...nafrica21.html

Originally Posted by NikeX

Settle Africa? Right now Africans have had all that they can stand of the overbearing, arrogant Chinese. Africans are not in the mood to host another round of colonization. China better look else where.

The Seattle Times: Nation & World: China cultivates Africa, planting seeds of worry

I will see your June 21, 2006 article, and raise you a May 8, 2012 article:

China in East Africa: Win-Win? | Think Africa Press

China must step with a light foot in Africa because Africans are very sensitive about trading one overlord like the European powers for another.

Originally Posted by NikeX

China must step with a light foot in Africa because Africans are very sensitive about trading one overlord like the European powers for another.

The main difference between aid from the West and aid from China is that China's aid does not come with strings attached.

Furthermore, while the West had been talking about aiding Africa for the past 50 years, China is now talking about investing in Africa.

China has experience in lifting hundreds of millions people out of poverty in less than 3 decades. China still has hundreds of millions of people who live no better than the average African. You think the West knows better than China about what Africa really needs?

Originally Posted by solarz

The main difference between aid from the West and aid from China is that China's aid does not come with strings attached.

That is not how Africans see it. China comes into Africa and sets up a Chinese run infrastructure that becomes an outlet for their their cheap products and it ends up undercutting the local merchants. This is a common complaint about how the Chinese operate in Africa.

The bottom line is that whatever happens, Africa is seen as a rich storehouse of mineral wealth to be exploited to help the rise of China. So don't give me that "no strings attached" lie about China as they drain natural resources from Africa. The motto is Africa for China not Africa for Africans

China’s Appetite for Wood
Takes a Heavy Toll on Forests

More than half of the timber now shipped globally is destined for China. But unscrupulous Chinese companies are importing huge amounts of illegally harvested wood, prompting conservation groups to step up boycotts against rapacious timber interests.

Logging in Zambezia Province

Chinese timber buyers are colluding with Mozambican business people and some members of the Mozambique government and their forest services to strip precious slow-growing tropical hardwoods from Mozambique’s semi-arid forests at a rate that could see the resource exhausted in 5-10 years,

Chinese State-owned Mining Companies Exploit Zambian Miners ...

The report, entitled “‘You’ll Be Fired If You Refuse’: Labor Abuses in Zambia’s Chinese State-Owned Copper Mines,” describes abusive employment conditions at four Chinese-run mines, including substandard health and safety conditions, 12- to 18-hour shifts of strenous labor, and anti-union activities.

China mistreats its own people. You can guess how they treat Africans

---------- Post added at 10:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 PM ----------

The Chinese have been especially brutal on Africans who have dared to travel to China. This is a well known fact and is a source of resentment against Chinese who come to Africa. Africans are well aware of the rampant racism Chinese have towards Black Africans

I know you are aware of the many riots the Chinese have conducted against African students in China. Here is just one such incident:

...."On December 24, 1988 two male African students were entering their campus at Hohai University in Nanjing with two Chinese women. The occasion was a Christmas Eve party. A quarrel between one of the Africans and a Chinese security guard, who had suspected that the women the African students tried to bring into the campus were prostitutes and refused their entry, led to a brawl between the African and Chinese students on the campus which lasted till the morning, leaving 13 students injured. 300 Chinese students, spurred by false rumors that a Chinese man had been killed by the Africans, broke into and set about destroying the Africans' dormitories, shouting slogans. Part of the destruction involved setting fire to the Africans' dormitory and locking them in. The President of the University had to order the fire department to take action.

After the police had dispersed the Chinese students, many Africans fled to the railway station in order to gain safety at various African embassies in Beijing. The authorities prevented the Africans from boarding the trains so as to question those involved in the brawl. Soon their numbers increased to 140, as other African and non-African foreign students, fearing violence, arrived at the station asking to be allowed to go to Beijing.

By this time, Chinese students from HoHai University had joined up with students from other Nanjing universities to make up a 3000-strong demonstration that called on government officials to prosecute the African students and reform the system which gave foreigners more rights than the Chinese. On the evening of December 26, the marchers converged on the railway station while holding banners calling for human rights and political reform. Chinese police managed to isolate the non-Chinese students from the marchers and moved them to a military guest house outside Nanjing. The protests were declared illegal, and riot police were brought in from surrounding provinces to pacify the demonstrators, which took several more days. ...."

Truth of the matter is that China's investments in Africa have done far more good in 20 years than all the handwringing and patronizing of the west have done in the last 50 years, everything else is but mere peanuts by comparison.

The other day I was watched part of a documentary called "The Seven Sisters" (Its about the Oil Majors and their presence in Africa.) Part of it included a interview with a African leader who was extremely harsh on the Chinese. I couldn't tell whether he was referring to his own country or the whole of Black Africa when he claimed China had sent twenty thousand ex prisioners whose skill level was nothing above common laborers/ pick and shovel level there. If that's the price you have to pay for investment, than you can shove it.

Originally Posted by Phead128

Perhaps this map suggest Russian retention of nominal sovereignty (face-saving measure) in exchange for Chinese capital investment into Siberia infrastructure (ie. privileged access for Siberian resources at bargain prices) . . . because it's an compromise between an resource hungry, but resource poor China, and an resource rich, but undeveloped Russian Far East.

Hey, Phead128, that's an interesting map you posed. Which book/publication did you get it from?

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by NikeX

That is not how Africans see it. China comes into Africa and sets up a Chinese run infrastructure that becomes an outlet for their their cheap products and it ends up undercutting the local merchants. This is a common complaint about how the Chinese operate in Africa.

The bottom line is that whatever happens, Africa is seen as a rich storehouse of mineral wealth to be exploited to help the rise of China. So don't give me that "no strings attached" lie about China as they drain natural resources from Africa. The motto is Africa for China not Africa for Africans

China’s Appetite for Wood
Takes a Heavy Toll on Forests

More than half of the timber now shipped globally is destined for China. But unscrupulous Chinese companies are importing huge amounts of illegally harvested wood, prompting conservation groups to step up boycotts against rapacious timber interests.

Logging in Zambezia Province

Chinese timber buyers are colluding with Mozambican business people and some members of the Mozambique government and their forest services to strip precious slow-growing tropical hardwoods from Mozambique’s semi-arid forests at a rate that could see the resource exhausted in 5-10 years,

By the same token Europe takes up a large slice of African timber. If it had'nt been for the recession of the last couple of years you would be looking at a quite substantial tonnage.

In 2011 26/% of Ghana's timber went to Europe compared to 15% for Asia

http://www.unctad.info/upload/Infoco...feb_2011_2.pdf

Originally Posted by NikeX

That is not how Africans see it. China comes into Africa and sets up a Chinese run infrastructure that becomes an outlet for their their cheap products and it ends up undercutting the local merchants. This is a common complaint about how the Chinese operate in Africa.

The bottom line is that whatever happens, Africa is seen as a rich storehouse of mineral wealth to be exploited to help the rise of China. So don't give me that "no strings attached" lie about China as they drain natural resources from Africa. The motto is Africa for China not Africa for Africans

(...)

China mistreats its own people. You can guess how they treat Africans

You are being completely disingenious. The Chinese people are willing to work harder and for less pay than Westerners, as well as, apparently, Africans. That is how China lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in 30 years. That is how China went from dirt poor to regional superpower in 30 years. That is why the US sees China as its main adversary in the 21st Century.

No one is forcing Chinese to go to Africa to be "mistreated". In fact, there is a long lineup of people willing to earn extra money by working overseas. Don't blame someone's own laziness on another person's industriousness!

The Chinese have been especially brutal on Africans who have dared to travel to China. This is a well known fact and is a source of resentment against Chinese who come to Africa. Africans are well aware of the rampant racism Chinese have towards Black Africans

I know you are aware of the many riots the Chinese have conducted against African students in China. Here is just one such incident:

African students have been going to China to study since the early 80's. If they really found it to be such an inhospitable place, why do they keep coming? Who's putting a gun to their head?

I think you need to back up your statements with evidence, as we do no allow unsubstantiated claims on these forums. A few incidents of riots do not prove anything. Ever heard of Rodney King? There is far more systematic oppression of blacks in the USA than in China, but that hasn't stopped the US from being the favorite immigration destination of Africans.

You are being completely disingenious. The Chinese people are willing to work harder and for less pay than Westerners, as well as, apparently, Africans. That is how China lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in 30 years. That is how China went from dirt poor to regional superpower in 30 years. That is why the US sees China as its main adversary in the 21st Century.

No one is forcing Chinese to go to Africa to be "mistreated". In fact, there is a long lineup of people willing to earn extra money by working overseas. Don't blame someone's own laziness on another person's industriousness!

It is precisely this attitude you display here about how the Chinese are so industrious and others particularly Black Africans are so lazy that have caused Africans to come to loath the presence of the Chinese on the African continent.

China is in Africa for one reason and that is to obtain the resources that China lacks to build China. And they will do anything to accomplish that goal. At the end of the day it is all about China.

---------- Post added at 11:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 AM ----------

African students have been going to China to study since the early 80's. If they really found it to be such an inhospitable place, why do they keep coming? Who's putting a gun to their head?

I think you need to back up your statements with evidence, as we do no allow unsubstantiated claims on these forums. A few incidents of riots do not prove anything. Ever heard of Rodney King? There is far more systematic oppression of blacks in the USA than in China, but that hasn't stopped the US from being the favorite immigration destination of Africans.

Here is the answer to your question: African students travel to China for the same reason African students traveled to Russia to receive higher education and that is the education is subsidized for the African students. In turn the Chinese, like the Russians, hope to make inroads into the country of origin of the African students when those students complete their education and return home. It is quite simple.

Now regarding the racism of the Chinese towards Black Africans and Blacks in general one need look no further than the many racial incidents that have occurred in China and continue to occur in China. For example, look at the situation of Lou Jing, a struggling singer who was featured on Shanghai's ""Go Oriental Angel"" program in August 2009. Lou Jing was born in Shanghai to a Chinese mother and African-American father. She is a Chinese citizen and speaks perfect Chinese. But her reception on the show has been anything but glamorous. Angry Chinese viewers have gone so far as to say she should “get out of China” and that she “never should have been born.

If you want to go into detail on the ugly reactions Chinese citizens have towards Blacks you can read this book. The author is a Black American who speaks fluent Mandarin and on behalf of his university visited China and conducted in depth studies on the attitudes of the Chinese towards darker skinned people. This heavily documented book will answer any questions you may have

Race and Racism in the Chinas: Chinese Racial ... - Google Books
books.google.com › ... › Ethnic Studies › African American StudiesRace and Racism in the Chinas: Chinese Racial Attitudes Toward Africans and African-Americans. Front Cover. M. Dujon Johnson ...

Race and Racism in the Chinas: Chinese Racial Attitudes Toward Africans and ... - M. Dujon Johnson - Google Books

Lou Jing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So I guess I cleared up your charges that I was posting "unsubstantiated claims" regarding racial issues in China and beyond.

NikeX, I see you are comparing China with the colonial Europeans. The biggest difference is, the Europeans went into Africa with force, they killed bunch of people there, took over the local government, enslaved everyone and then force resources extraction with force. While they leaves absolutely nothing behind that is any good.

As for China, yes I have no doubt China wants resource there, and I don't even think Chinese themselves will deny this. BUT they way they are doing it is vastly different than the old Europeans, China does not send it is army, China does not colonize the land, and enslave the people and force them to extract resources.

Instead you should know that all Chinese company signs contracts with the local government, a contract that both sides understand are satisfied with. That means yes, China gets the natural resources, but that also means Africa does not get empty hands as well, they do often get merchandise in return, and if you want to call them "cheap Chinese crap" than that is your provocative, but those cheap Chinese crap has indeed raise the standard of living for many people. Also in those contracts, China will help Africa to build much need infrastructure such as roads, hospital, school etc on a massive scale... I really don't see the colonize did hits when they were in Africa.

And yes it is true, that during this process, there are stories that Chinese company didn't treat the African's fairly, but yet, if you want to look at stories, than I can find hundreds of story of how US treating Blacks/Latinos/Asians unfairly in California. Anecdote makes up good story with emotional appeal, but it does NOT make up statistic. So if you want to clam that Chinese are using the old European style to colonize Africa, or Chinese is discriminating and abusing African on a mass organize scale, please back up your sources, with study, statistic, evidence etc.... otherwise, talk is cheap.

Originally Posted by NikeX

It is precisely this attitude you display here about how the Chinese are so industrious and others particularly Black Africans are so lazy that have caused Africans to come to loath the presence of the Chinese on the African continent.

Yet, 6 years after the article you linked about "African resentment", there are still plenty of Africans who believe that Chinese investment is enriching their lives.

No, the "lazy" people I referred to are not the Africans, it's the Westerners. You think that asking employees to work 12-16 hours a day is "mistreating" them. No, that's a necessity of life. No one is going to give these people a cushy welfare check. If they want to rise above abject poverty, the best thing they can ask for is a job.

China is in Africa for one reason and that is to obtain the resources that China lacks to build China. And they will do anything to accomplish that goal. At the end of the day it is all about China.

This is a foolish statement. The foundation of Trade is based on "I want something you have, and you want something I have". There is no charity involved in business.

Charities give out other people's money. Investors give out their own money. Charities *hope* for an improvement. Investors *demand* an improvement.