Sino Ottoman relations?

Originally Posted by Mightypeon

Hi,

this is a question that came up in a history seminar today:

Does anyone know something about the relationship between the ottoman Empire and the Ming or Quing dynasties?

Since both were "encroached upon" by European colonials, it would have made some sense to come to an understanding, on the otherhand, I do know that they had proxie clashes in central asia over the muslim areas.

I'm not sure. But there must been some animosity between China and Turkey because in the last few weeks there have been very large demonstrations in Turkey against China. All this over the recent riots in China.

Originally Posted by bd popeye

I'm not sure. But there must been some animosity between China and Turkey because in the last few weeks there have been very large demonstrations in Turkey against China. All this over the recent riots in China.

The recent demonstrations are part of the more recent development of "Pan-Turkism." They are not based on ancient animosities, if anything China would be pissed at Turkey for centuries of raids by Turkic peoples.

So I take it, there is no historical animosity such as China with some of her SE Asian neighbours.?

Originally Posted by bladerunner

So I take it, there is no historical animosity such as China with some of her SE Asian neighbours.?

Of course there are, they share borders. Turkey does not.

It seems that all the fuss that Turkey made in regard to the riots in Xinjiang is not without harm to China's interest. Although there are a few unremarkable small protests in other countries - mostly by the Uygurs themselves, the biggest one seem to have come from Turkey. Now that it has caught the attention of a certain extremist group, Chinese workers in northern Afrikan countries are now at greater risk and are forced to take extra precaution.

I wonder how this would affect the relations between China and Turkey. Turkey should not have reacted the way it did and should have exercise more caution in the face of the very first unsubstantiated media reports.

Maybe the Turkish government is trying to get some attention? Or better yet since they have been ostracized by other Islamic countries/groups in the past, they might be trying to look tough now? Who knows, the point is while it is damaging to China, it is more damaging to themselves.

Originally Posted by Spike

Of course there are, they share borders. Turkey does not.

What I meant was, "Is there any historical grievances between China and Turkey?"

The Turks Should remember that "People in Glasshouses should"nt throw stones"

They'e have had incidences with the Armenians, where some EU countries and the U.S. want to label the historical Turkish actions as genocide, and the also have trouble with some Kurds and the P.K.K. in Northern Iraq

Originally Posted by bladerunner

What I meant was, "Is there any historical grievances between China and Turkey?"

To answer your question, I just spent some time reading up on this actually. Here's what I found:

China does have a grievance dating back to Ottoman/Qing times when the Turks made a half-hearted effort to subvert Chinese authority in Xinjiang. During Yakub Beg's decade-long conquest of Kashgar and its environs, he solicited political and military support from the Ottomans, who agreed to send him weapons, 3000 rifles and some old (actually unusable) cannons, along with a few military officers to train his troops. The Ottomans also granted him the title of emir which theoretically made them overlords of Yakub Beg and Kashgaria. However, everyone knew the Ottomans were too far away to be of actual help, both were actually hoping the British would get involved as a hedge against Russia. In the end, Yakub Beg's army was put down by Chinese forces under the Qing general Zuo Zongtang. Official Ottoman involvement then ceased, although some indirect Turkish influence remained.

After the fall of the Qing, weak Republican Chinese control of the region allowed Turkish influence to increase to a degree. Turkish trained teachers arrived and began setting up schools and teaching a modern Turkish curriculum in Turkish to the Uyghurs. Ironically, this clashed with the conservative clergy and feelings of Uyghur identity and caused some problems. In any case, Turkish influence again receded when the Ottoman Empire fell after WWI.

More recent developments include the fact that Communist China and Turkey were opposing combatants in the Korean War. Turkey also became the base of many Uyghur operations to subvert Chinese control in Xinjiang. On the other hand, China also supported Turkish rivals such as Syria, which annoyed Turkey. Sino-Turkic relations often followed the course of Sino-American relations, they improved after the 1970's with the thaw between China and the United States.

EDIT: Also remember that Turkey delayed the Varyag from passing through the Bosphorus.

So there were some grievances, but nothing close to the grievances with European powers (baring the Habsburgs, whose total and utter lack of maritime assets prevented them from doing something overly stupid "cough Kaiser Wilhem cough").

turks and chinese have long standing ties going back to the silk route

china is great friend of pakistan and turkey is great friend of pakistan and all share common interests in the region, western countrys will only try to damage relations between eastern nations to hinder our progress

turkey and china have had alot of military co-operation in the past too

Actually in silk days China mostly dealt with Persia in the forms of Parthians and Sassanids. (After Persia fell to the Umayyads a good portion of Sassanids nobles went to China as refugees made Zoroastrianism became popular for a brief period before Emperor Wuzong destroyed it.) There some relations with the Caliphate, but it isn't as close as Sino-Persian relations. Mongols settled a lot of Arabs and Turks in China as artisan, soldier and administrators, but of course it didn't continue into the Ming dynasty. (In fact the "colored eyes" are often resented by the populaces due to hash Mongolian rule, especially in Southern China.) All this time of course Ottoman hasn't risen yet, and the area we know as Turkey today belongs to the Byzantine Empire.

Afterwards, China lose control of western corridor and with power Oirats tribes and Timurid Empire (later Persian Empire) stand between Ming/Qing and Ottomans there is pretty much no way they would make contact in any meaningful way. After Opium war however, Qing is to busy to keep it empire from European and various rebellion while Ottoman is doing the same thing. During the great game era, Ottoman might be able to exhort some influence. But if you look at the history of place, it pretty much a British and (mostly) Russian game from the Chinese point of view. (i.e. Treaty of Peking, 中俄勘分西北界约记(made possible by Dungan revolt), Samu Sake/萨木萨克 episode) In conclusion, Ottomans and Ming/Qing are simply too far ways and with too many countries in between to have relations in a meaningful way; in later times, any efforts are overshadowed by Russian and British.

Hello, I am a Sino(Chinese), and I can tell everyone about this: Sinos and Turks have been enemies for 4000 years, and any grudge between us is nothing new.

During that time, Sinos are known as "Han", and Turks or Ottomans are known as "Hun".

Hans and Huns were neighbors that time, Huns live in the desert in the West, which people nowadays call it "Turkistan". While Hans live beside the river in the East, which is known as "Yellow Plain" beside "Yellow River", as Hans are known as "Great Yellow Tribes".

The reason it is called Turkistan is because that is actually where Turkish people originated from. The Chinese whose ancestors came from province of Yellow Plain are the real Chinese people, or Han if you prefer the term.

Now you know this, I'll start the history lesson in brief details:
About 4000 years ago, Huns were very considered as powerful tribes because they were brute warriors with strong weapons. Being proud of their warpower, Huns became aggressive and had invaded many tribes. Hans were also one of the most civilized culture during that time, and we were proud of ourselves for that. Therefore, Hans and Huns declared war against each other.

During the war, both Han and Hun warriors lost their location easily. Since we kept moving to different locations in order to change strategies, we tend to forget where were we going. But surprising, Hans won the Huns in the war. The reason was Hans had discovered South-pointer, which the arrow will always point toward south no matter where we bring it. South-pointer was pretty much compass as we had known today. Since Hans discovered South-pointer, we knew our locations better, and we use that advantage to fight wars against Huns, and we won.

As Hans won the war, we took over everything Hun tribes had, and suppress them for thousands of years. The Huns had tried to fought back against us, but we had separated their tribes apart North and South, so they remained weak and could not manage to fight back at all.

The separated Hun tribes in Northern part knew they had no more chance of fighting the Han tribes, so they moved toward the West.

The rumor that I heard was after the Hun tribes (I'll use the term "Turk" now) had moved to the West, they had been invading countries in Middle East and Europe, and eventually overthrew the Roman Empire in some time. We also noticed that Turks had been bullying the weak tribes and stealing foreign women all over the place, invading kingdoms, and committed to mass rape and murder.

I also knew about Vlad III impaled Ottomans in order to defend Wallachia, and many legends related to Ottoman invasions.

I admit that Sino had used cruel punishments to the Turk, but don't forget Turk were also cruel for doing all those stuff that I had mentioned above. Therefore, that makes both Sino and Turk equal, as we had always declared war against each other.

I repeat one more time, Sino and Turk were already enemies for 4000 years, do not think about trying to stop us. It's just too hard.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Hello, I am a Sino(Chinese), and I can tell everyone about this: Sinos and Turks have been enemies for 4000 years, and any grudge between us is nothing new.

During that time, Sinos are known as "Han", and Turks or Ottomans are known as "Hun".

Hans and Huns were neighbors that time, Huns live in the desert in the West, which people nowadays call it "Turkistan". While Hans live beside the river in the East, which is known as "Yellow Plain" beside "Yellow River", as Hans are known as "Great Yellow Tribes".

The reason it is called Turkistan is because that is actually where Turkish people originated from. The Chinese whose ancestors came from province of Yellow Plain are the real Chinese people, or Han if you prefer the term.

Now you know this, I'll start the history lesson in brief details:
About 4000 years ago, Huns were very considered as powerful tribes because they were brute warriors with strong weapons. Being proud of their warpower, Huns became aggressive and had invaded many tribes. Hans were also one of the most civilized culture during that time, and we were proud of ourselves for that. Therefore, Hans and Huns declared war against each other.

During the war, both Han and Hun warriors lost their location easily. Since we kept moving to different locations in order to change strategies, we tend to forget where were we going. But surprising, Hans won the Huns in the war. The reason was Hans had discovered South-pointer, which the arrow will always point toward south no matter where we bring it. South-pointer was pretty much compass as we had known today. Since Hans discovered South-pointer, we knew our locations better, and we use that advantage to fight wars against Huns, and we won.

As Hans won the war, we took over everything Hun tribes had, and suppress them for thousands of years. The Huns had tried to fought back against us, but we had separated their tribes apart North and South, so they remained weak and could not manage to fight back at all.

The separated Hun tribes in Northern part knew they had no more chance of fighting the Han tribes, so they moved toward the West.

The rumor that I heard was after the Hun tribes (I'll use the term "Turk" now) had moved to the West, they had been invading countries in Middle East and Europe, and eventually overthrew the Roman Empire in some time. We also noticed that Turks had been bullying the weak tribes and stealing foreign women all over the place, invading kingdoms, and committed to mass rape and murder.

I also knew about Vlad III impaled Ottomans in order to defend Wallachia, and many legends related to Ottoman invasions.

I admit that Sino had used cruel punishments to the Turk, but don't forget Turk were also cruel for doing all those stuff that I had mentioned above. Therefore, that makes both Sino and Turk equal, as we had always declared war against each other.

I repeat one more time, Sino and Turk were already enemies for 4000 years, do not think about trying to stop us. It's just too hard.

My friend... Do you have any references for what you have written? It is totally different from what we have been reading... I don't even know where to begin. Just a few points... the Chinese recorded History started with Shan empire and Zhou empire, the Xia Empire was more or less mythology. And all these didn't really involve the Huns or Turks. Prior to the Xia Empire, there are multiple tribes and I believe they are united by a roving tribes lead by Huang Di (Yellow Emperor). And as all know Shan Empire was conquered by Zhou Empire... at that time the Han dynasty had not even been involved.

After the warring period, Qin had managed to conquered the rest of the states (which most of them are previously states of Zhou), there was no mentioning of the Huns in great deal too... of course there are already the Xiongnu tribes that had been bothering the Qin (even before they unite all the states). And these Xiongnu tribes are the closest thing to the Huns that will eventually defeated the Roman's empire - but seriously there is very limited evidence to whether the Xiongnu was the ancestors or was the actual Huns... what they share was the fact that they are nomadic tribes.

Hans defeated the Xiongnu... but that happen by Han Wudi period.

I think China had most of the time (ancient period) been conquered or united by normadic tribes - yes, even the Qin's started off as nomadic peoples and the Manchus started off as nomadic people, so was the Jin, Khitan, etc. But that was the nature of things, the stronger and wilder ones often conquered the weaker and more civilised civilization.