This is a discussion on Siege of Changchun within the Military History forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; Even PLA failures in situations like the Hundred Regiments Campaign were very instructive for not only in increasing combat experience ...
Junior Member
Even PLA failures in situations like the Hundred Regiments Campaign were very instructive for not only in increasing combat experience of their troops, but also demonstrating the significance of maintaining unit cohesion in disengagements, which would prove critical for future successes in later battles.
Senior Member
That's a great documentary. I just finished watching the first episode. Although the show does use words to indicate that the NW theatre was the most critical theatre for the Communists, it's important to note that Lin Biao commanded only 100k troops. That's less than 10% of the Communists' total strength. Obviously, there were other things going on at the same time.Originally Posted by vesicles
Senior Member
Also, notice that in the fight for NW China, the KMT sent their best troops, while the CCP sent their closest troops. Thus, I don't think it's fair to judge the early PLA as "ineffective" based on the early results of their battle against the most elite KMT troops.
New Member
why don't you add up the CCP commanders and their units after ww2 end to estimate if they had 1.2 million regular troops strength? Mao Zedong motive of exaggerating the fake 1 million number would be to claim a non-existent mandate, i.e. support from peasants so to have more bargaining rights during the peace talks in Chungking 1945.
the CCP did have more than 1 million troops by mid 1946. the increase from 300-500K to 1 million came from the Manchukuo army (400K), North Korean troops (100K) and extensive conscription.
the best military aid for the Nationalist are the small arms and ammunition. the United States did not give any infantry weapons to the Nationalist after WW2 end to 1948. the Nationalist also had a severe shortage of ammunition.
i thought Li Xiannian's & Wang Zhen forces were heavily routed, reduced to 500 remnants? i know little about this Hubei-Henan battle.
inexperienced troops doesn't mean no ability to fight / no chances of success. the moral and spirit mattered a lot and are equally important with military might in winning battles. the Communist troops' morale were high on the ascendance from 1946. by contrast the Nationalist troops' morale were deteriorating and increasingly dispirited as the war dragged on due to many reasons.
so the Communist did what useful fighting during the war, especially from 1941-1945? please write a bit more, not just one line like harassing Japanese behind the front lines. harass what? and what did the Commies achieved that really made a useful contribution toward the Chinese war situation?
Senior Member
Wow... so you think that:
1. Manchukuo armies joined the Communists
2. the US only gave the KMT small arms and ammunition
3. 350k inexperienced troops can defeat 4.6 million professional soldiers
I think you pretty much made my case for me.
New Member
you can read about the absorption of Manchukuo troops into the Chinese Communist army in General Li Zongren's memoir.
don't distort me. when did i suggest the US only gave the KMT small arms and ammunition?
you should try proving the Communists had 1.2 million regular troops by end ww2. i mentioned several times, do add up the CCP units, see if you can get around 1 million figure.
the Nationalist didn't pour all 3.5 million troops to the North-East to fight the Communist right from start. CCP increased it's troops from 350K from ww2 end to over 1 million by early 1946 to around 2 million by early 1947. again don't distort me by saying i think 350K troops can defeat 3.5 million troops.
Last edited by lightspeed; 07-31-2012 at 09:44 AM.
Senior Member
On the Manchukuo troops:
I'm sure the recollections of a KMT general about the practices of the CCP is accurate and unbiased. Go you!
In case you didn't know, it was the Soviet Union who invaded and occupied NW China (what you call "Manchukuo") at the end of WW2. It was the Soviet Union who rounded up, incarcerated, and disbanded the former Manchukuo armies. By the time the Communists got there, all that's left is some POW camps.
On the Communist numbers:
It doesn't matter whether the CCP had 1.2 million troops or 350k troops when the war against the KMT started. What matters is that you claim they were *inexperienced* troops. That's patently false. Whether 1.2 mil or 350k, they were outnumbered and out-equipped by the KMT. The fact that they won the war shows they were anything but inexperienced.
Member
Why not? I mean Mongols conquered foes with less favorable ratios. Sun-tzu won with a very small force during the war between Chu-Wu.
New Member
the Soviet aided the Chinese Communist to absorb the Manchukuo puppet troops into her army.
according to historian Jay Taylor ( the Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek and the Struggle for Modern China pp 317-318 ).
in Manchuria, the CCP immediately began the process of incorporating 75,000 former Manchukuo puppet troops into its forces as well as thousands of other fresh recruits from the mass of unemployed Manchurian youth and the 80,000 or so bandits roaming the mountains.
the facts are from Chiang Kai Shek’s diaries.
Taylor also mentioned that the Publishing House of CCP Historical Materials, articles in official Chinese Communist journals, as well as Soviet archival materials can confirm this fact to be true
only the figures differ in the CCP, KMT, Soviet and US sources.
Northeast Anti-Japanese United Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Manchukuo Imperial Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
the articles ( Chinese and English ) mention some Manchukuo army troops joining the Chinese Communist.
my views are the inexperienced CCP army after ww2 end received training from the Japanese and Soviet trainers, they subsequently gained combat experiences in battles against the Nationalist. the Communist troops were also well-equipped by the Russians. by early 1947, the 2 million strong Red Army were a formidable force in North East China.
if you believe the Communist troops were experienced due to the fact of 1.2 million troops harassing the Japanese behind the front lines during the war. i disagree with the fact. i have said that the Communist regular troops numbered 350-500K during the war and asked you to provide some details of CCP troops engaging in significant skirmishes against the Japanese from 1942-1945. you watched mainland historian Xin Haonian youtube video 中共在抗战中做了什么? do you think his speech was credible or he was simply bullshiting?
Soviet diplomat Peter Vladimirov in “Vladimir Diaries” said that the Chinese Communist had around 320K troops and half of the troops had no rifles. he never once found the Communist and Japanese engaged in battle during the period from 1942 to 1945. US General Wedemeyer testified before the Senate committee, saying that the Communist had 400-500K troops during the war ( military situation in the far east 1951 ).
Senior Member
Where in the links that you posted does it mention Manchukuo puppet forces joining the Communists? The 75k you quoted is a far cry from the 400k that you claimed previously. Further, how much credence can we give to a book that tries to spin Jiang into a hero? You might as well quote from Jung Chang.
BS. The PLA had been claiming victory after victory from the start of the civil war. That is not "gaining" combat experience, that is already pretty frickin experienced!my views are the inexperienced CCP army after ww2 end received training from the Japanese and Soviet trainers, they subsequently gained combat experiences in battles against the Nationalist. the Communist troops were also well-equipped by the Russians. by early 1947, the 2 million strong Red Army were a formidable force in North East China.
I'm not sure what you're trying to insinuate with the 2 million Soviet Red Army comment. Were you brought up with the text book I linked in post #60?
The Soviet presence was only in NW China (Manchuria). The PLA was racking up victories in everywhere *but* NW China, where Lin Biao was being hard-pressed by the New 1st Army. This pretty much flies in the face of the argument that the PLA was well-equipped by the Soviet Russians.
The best evidence of the Communists troops fighting the Japanese is their battlefield performance even early on in the war against the KMT. You don't win battles with green troops, and you don't gain combat experience by hiding in mountains!if you believe the Communist troops were experienced due to the fact of 1.2 million troops harassing the Japanese behind the front lines during the war. i disagree with the fact. i have said that the Communist regular troops numbered 350-500K during the war and asked you to provide some details of CCP troops engaging in significant skirmishes against the Japanese from 1942-1945. you watched mainland historian Xin Haonian youtube video 中共在抗战中做了什么? do you think his speech was credible or he was simply bullshiting?
Soviet diplomat Peter Vladimirov in “Vladimir Diaries” said that the Chinese Communist had around 320K troops and half of the troops had no rifles. he never once found the Communist and Japanese engaged in battle during the period from 1942 to 1945. US General Wedemeyer testified before the Senate committee, saying that the Communist had 400-500K troops during the war ( military situation in the far east 1951 ).
Xin Haonian is a FLG shill, and Soviet diplomats? Come on, those guys avoided fighting like the plague. You expect them to be present at Communist guerilla operations? What exactly makes you think that Soviet diplomats had any insight into the organization and operational history of the CCP? Is there any evidence of extensive Soviet presence among the Eighth Route regiments, or just the fact that they were both Commies?
Last edited by solarz; 08-01-2012 at 08:48 AM.
New Member
article on the Manchukuo puppet army.
h*ttp://www.zglj82.com/old/ShowPost.asp?ThreadID=19166
you still insist no Manchukuo troops joined the Communist army?
you are exaggerating the CCP fighting capabilities during the early stage of the civil war. the Nationalist and Communist both won and lost many battles during the first 18 months.
i already briefly explained why the tide of war turned in Communist favor from 2nd quarter of 1947. the Marshall Mission halted the Nationalist military advances in Manchuria.
i was talking only about the Chinese Communist army in that paragraph and the 2 million Red army of course meant the Chinese Red army.
the best evidence of the Communist troops fighting Japan are by citing evidence of them fighting the Japanese, not your pure factless assumption. what behind enemy lines operations? cite it. what 1 million regular troops? cite the units.
writer Lin Yutang in the book vigil of a nation provided detailed account of CCP troops fighting against the Nationalist but not against Japanese during the war against Japan. maybe you are right, the Chinese armed Communist are indeed an experienced fighting force based on that. General Wedemeyer chose not to give the Communist US military aid because they were not making any useful contributions toward the Chinese war efforts. dont forget Chairman Mao Zedong famous 70-20-10 percent line.
Senior Member
Right, an article posted on without any kind of reference is your "proof"? The entire article assumes that the Communists conscripted the Manchukuo puppet army. The only passage that describes the process is this:
This passage claims that it was the Nationalists who received 400k ex-Manchukuo army soldiers, but they decided to disperse them instead. There is no reference of any kind backing up this claim, of course.苏军对日本关东军留下的枪炮不怎么感兴趣，加上苏军在感情上同情中共，这就给了解放军接收关东军装备的机会 。苏军也借此向国民党方面讨价还价，让其让出更多的权益。
除了接收了关东军的武装外，解放军还接收了伪“满洲国”的大部分军队。李宗仁认为东北伪军接收，是蒋军在东 北失败的开始，而错误的起源，仍在陈诚。他说：“更有一荒唐绝顶的事，便是陈诚在胜利后所发一连串的遣散伪 军的命令。投诚的四十万满洲国伪军均由日本装备和严格训练，极有基础。他们久处日军铁蹄之下，含愤莫雪，一 旦抗日胜利，无不摩拳擦掌，希为中央政府效命，一雪作伪军之耻。当时政府如善加绥抚，晓以大义，这40万伪 军只需一声号令，即可保东北于无虞。无奈陈诚仰承上峰旨意，竟下令遣散。熊式辉若是一个有眼光而勇于负责的 干员，未尝不可把这道命令暂时搁置。殊不知熊式辉就是一位只知做官的人物，他竟把陈诚这道糊涂命令通令全体 伪军。此举直如晴空霹雳，几十万伪军顿时解体，林彪乃乘机延揽，伪军的精华遂悉为中共所吸收。迨中央发现其 错误企图加以纠正时，已来不及了。”
Let's assume for the sake of argument that this claim is true. Perhaps you could answer this question then: just before the KMT-CCP hostilities began, Jiang sent his elite armies by land and ship to the NW. Why did he do that if he didn't think the NW was important? If he thought that the NW was important, why did he decide to disband a 400k army that was already under his control?
Maybe you don't care about these kinds of inconsistencies, so long as they fit your worldview. However, for the rest of us, we like to be a little more rigorous, and care about little details like "references".
I'm exaggerating? Really? Read this link again:you are exaggerating the CCP fighting capabilities during the early stage of the civil war. the Nationalist and Communist both won and lost many battles during the first 18 months.
i already briefly explained why the tide of war turned in Communist favor from 2nd quarter of 1947. the Marshall Mission halted the Nationalist military advances in Manchuria.
i was talking only about the Chinese Communist army in that paragraph and the 2 million Red army of course meant the Chinese Red army.
List of Chinese battles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Count how many battles the Communists won before the "2nd quarter of 1947", and count how many the Nationalists won. Unlike your forum post above, Wikipedia lists references.
Ah yes, the infamous line that anti-Communists like to trott out. Try reading this:the best evidence of the Communist troops fighting Japan are by citing evidence of them fighting the Japanese, not your pure factless assumption. what behind enemy lines operations? cite it. what 1 million regular troops? cite the units.
writer Lin Yutang in the book “vigil of a nation” provided detailed account of CCP troops fighting against the Nationalist but not against Japanese during the war against Japan. maybe you are right, the Chinese armed Communist are indeed an experienced fighting force based on that. General Wedemeyer chose not to give the Communist US military aid because they were not making any useful contributions toward the Chinese war efforts. don’t forget Chairman Mao Zedong famous 70-20-10 percent line.
›泽œœŸ说‡"€ˆ†Š——Œˆ†”˜ƒˆ† ‘•十ˆ†宣*€—_*Ž论›_*Ž‘论 ›--‘‹影“*›--…›œ€大社Œ’“
Long story short, there has never been any first hand evidence that Mao actually said this. And even if he did, or thought this way, so what? People like you get hung up on the "10% resist Japanese", and forget all about the "70% development".
Let me remind you that in the 8 years of KMT-CCP cooperation against Japan, the Nationalist government only distributed equipment to the Eighth Route Army *ONCE*, in the very beginning.
So how exactly would the Communists "develop"? Did they own any weapons factories? No? Then where did their guns come from? Or do you think Mao's "development" meant having 45k rifles for 1.2 million soldiers? Or even 350k soldiers, if that's the number you prefer.
I'm not sure what is this "pure factless assumption" that I'm making. I already told you that I don't care if the Communists had 1.2 million or 350k soldiers at the end of the war. The number doesn't make a difference. The fact is, the Eight Route Army grew by magnitudes. Whether that magnitude is 8 times or 27 times, the only way to equip those new soldiers was to get the weapons from the Japanese. Based on this fact alone, it invalidates your claim that the CCP did not make any effort to fight the Japanese.
Last edited by solarz; 08-10-2012 at 09:38 AM.
New Member
some Manchukuo troops joined General Lin Biao Fourth Field Army. i am right on this. the Communist also absorb Japanese soldiers into its ranks.
h*ttp://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2010-09/01/content_14108967.htm
h*ttp://club.163.com/viewArticleByWWW.m?boardId=cityhljhh&articleId=cit yhljhh_13439852daa0029_0
ok. the Communist won lots of battles against the Nationalist during the first 18 months.
some Communist troops were relatively experienced considering the fact that they fought against Nationalist and Wang Jingwei puppet quite often, but not against Japanese during the war.
the Mao link is corrupted.
洛川會議
h*ttp://anyishen.blog.hexun.com.tw/55932013_d.html
the Communist apparently had 1 million regular troops and 1 million guerillas but they never engaged in any conventional warfare against the Japanese invaders, especially from 1942-1945. yes, they had no guns and bullets to fight. but Chairman Mao said something like this we defeated the Nationalist with bare hands and broomsticks. so why werent the 2 million troops courageous enough to fight the Japanese head-on with bare hands and broomsticks?
Last edited by lightspeed; 08-11-2012 at 11:39 PM.
New Member
the number of course make a difference. 1-1.2 million, not 350-500K fighting the Japanese sounded more impressive. effective propaganda on the people.
the Communist including the Eight Route Army were severely lacking in munitions prior to V-J Day. they made repeated requests to the American authorities in China to arm it's inadequately equipped troops.
Banned Idiot
Why you are guys so hang up on the numbers. Why does everything have to be so absolutely black or white, why can't you just accept that yes during the war, KMT had much bigger contributions and fought all the conventional battles. But CCP was not useless either, it was able to hold up Japanese's supply line so that they can't send all of it is troops towards KMT forces freely.
Guerrilla warfare are often never recorded, they are never decisive in nature, but yet they cause great moral and logistic harm to the enemy, CCP's success does not diminished KMT's effort and vice verse.
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