SinoDefence Forum

FreeAsia2000

thinking like a westerner...always obsessed with race.

it was a muslim army composed of many races led by ottomani
turks who's leader was the khaliph.

my ancestors thus took part in the war that finally ended the evil
that was Rome.

so who won ?

IDonT

Not obsessed with race. Just pointing out who defeated who.

Rome was as evil in its day as all other empires.

DVDR

Romans could not solve a problem which is after the sword queeches, the iron sword became really soft, could be snapped easyily. therefore romans had short swords instead of long swords, (otherwise, snap... )

But Han had some technology, such as tempering and Point hardening, which was very helpful. Chinese solders could have a iron sword around 60-80 cm long, and it is the best length for fighting.

Also the Hardness of Romans weapons were around 100-400 HV (normally, short sword was around 200 something, the hardest was a knife, aroudn 700 HV.

people found some iron sword during the Warring states, the hardness up to 560 HV
Hardness of Qin's bronze Sword were around 150-300 Hv
Hardness of Han's iron Sword were around 500-1200 Hv.



And i can tell u guys what kind of tactics did huns use to aginst Roman's and Han'
They fire lots of the arrows to the air, therefore Romans use their shield to guard top of themself. at same time some Huns fire horizontally. Then use cavalry to RUSH to the Romans.

But Han's had a weapon called wu gang che. 6 metre long, 4.2 m wide (might be smaller. ) pikes were in the front of it and big shield on the top and sides, and also, it can carry a few crossbow man as well.
In the battles, Han placed Wu gang che in a circle or build a defense line,Use crossbow man to defend and cavalary rushed to Huns base camp.

Crossbow man had different version of croosbow as well. They are called one shi, 2 shi up to 10 shi. ( one shi equals to the force is need to left up around a mass of 30 Kg )
from range of 300- 800 meters.

Liberator

Han Chinese - Missile weapons. Good cavalries, armours for every soldier, overwhelming numbers, smart and strategic generals.

Romans - Great formations and disciplane soldiers. Dunno more.

IDonT

Rome had discipline professional soldiers, career generals, and the best heavy infantry in the world at that time.

In order to beat them, the Parthians use their composite bows and refrain from closing in on them. Once the legionaries got you within melee, they will most likely have won.

Liberator

Yeah, they are soo good in fighting barbarians without good armour and with lower pop...

T-U-P

this thread is still alive?! LOL

are you guys just keep stating the same things over and over again?

PiSigma

career general <---- now that is what i call obvious. every military of any empire have career generals. in fact, most generals are there because they have a good record in fighting and have good knowledge of controlling troops and tactics/strategy. it's only the lower troopers that's usually conscript. even in tribes, the military leaders are more knowledgable in warfare than the new warrior.

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IDonT

I don't recall if Rome had any conscript armies at its height.
The legionairs were professional soldiers and served for about 20 years.
The auxilia were also professional soldiers but were not Roman citizens. Citizenship were given at the end of service.

Han China had both a core professional army and used constription to bolster its ranks. This facilitated massive numbers and coupled with the ease of use of the crossbow, have a lethal army.

My question is, how well can the Han Heavy infantry keep the legionaries at bay from the crossbowman?

Liberator

Well, legionaries' turtle formations are against missiles and hackings. But can be panetrated by Crossbow.

I suggest, a book borrowed from the library about Chinese crossbow and missile weapons aswell as "The arrow storm" will help.

If the Legionaires get up close, its not that China will lose the battle, China has great cavalries that can tramble Romans. Just like the Germans. China has soldiers with high shield and short swords as well. Well up close, the battle will be a rubbish on both sides, the formations will spread.

IDonT

The Roman Legionaries were very good. Once both armies made contact, the Crossbow will be neutralize, unless you also want to shoot your own men. If I were a Roman General that is what I would do. Reach the Chinese line as fast as possible.

Cavalry at this time were not as effective without stirrups, the Roman Legions have enough discipline to not break during a cavalry charge. Unless you are talking about horse archers.

Sun Wu Kong

I think at this time, the Han army is the most powerful army in the world. If any Roman army meet a Han army you can be sure they will lose mostly every battle.

The Han army has the best crossbows in the world. Very powerful, can pierce all type of armor even the heaviest and have a range of 260m. High precision, no match particularly when use by cavalery and chariots. Very good rate for a crossbow.
Roman infantery will suffer very high heavy causualties because they are very slow (no need to talk when they use the turtle formation) even when they charge. Before they can reach the Han infantry they must face the charge of the Han cavalery and chariots.

The Han use a more modern tactics because of major role of the cavalery and chariots in the battlefield and their number are far bigger the roman cavalery.

Liberator

Roman legions cannot reach the CHinese crossbows as fast as u think, they can only jog slowly, or else running faster will undisciplane their formations. Before legionaries can reach teh crossbows and war machines, many can die. If the legionaries get up close, Chinese troops do let the rangers retreat backwards and the second line (infantries) will engage the enemies in melee combat. Legionaries are great in melee combat and are very disciplane, but China out number the romans and its army can support tens of thousands of soldiers with armour forged out of iron. While Romans have chain mail, ringed plates, Chinese have plates, scale, and chain. China is the first country ever found "steel".

Chinese cavalries are to break flanks when the enemies are busy fighting other soldiers.

So I would say that China would win, judging their large armour, great number, good tactics and tricks, better cavalries that outnumber Roman cavalries, and missiles.

While Romans have NOT-SO-FAST and flexible formations when it comes to legionaries. They had to use turtule formations to reach the Chinese, or a single line formation. But which reduce their speed. One must be step on thee other. Other-wise, it might create chaos. Like formations and other things, Roman army were ambushed a lot in Europe. You cannot count on formations to win battles, it need luck, tactics, and numbers. Advantages for missiles, and use of cavalries.

Aggreed on the facts, Sun Wu Kong. Are you Korean?

Sun Wu Kong

I'm Chinese.

rommel

Romans was the first country to introduce what we called battalion size-unit. By doing this, you give a lot of tactical mobility to you infantry on the field. Don't underestimed the fact the the tactical unit of the Roman was the cohort. For discipline, Roman discipline was extremely good, they were amazing (if we compare to a modern army, I'll say like the chinese or north korea disciplin). Depend in what year the fight is going on, in the 1st century AD, Roman soldiers were all issued the the famous steel-made armor and the roman chain mail,used before, was also very very good quality. Yeah by the way, Roman fought lots of battle against Germans and the Gaulies when ambushed or out-numbered, and most of the time, they (the romans, come out victorious), the discipline was the key of their success.

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