SinoDefence Forum

dengai

Okay, having studied this period of history in depth, I personally think that Han China would easily be able to win a defensive war against the Romans. The Romans would also be quite able to defend The Italian penninsula from Hans. The distances involved would make resupply very hard, so for a moment let's just pick up Roman Empire and plant it next to china.

Roman leginaries were trained to fight as a disciplined cohesive group. They were trained to throw javelins at enemy, then stab with short gladius swords. Each soldier was equipped with heavy armor, a woven wood sheild with a steel cover, two javelins, and a short sword. When under missile attack, they could easily form a wall of sheilds that would protect themselves. Roman generals were never extremely bright, often relying on their excellently trained troops to make up for their incompetence. Scipio, Pompey, and Julius Caesar were nothing compared to Zhuge Liang, Sun Tzu.

Hans, on the other hand, used cavalry extensively. Generals and other officers fought on horseback and resorted to trickery, unlike Roman centurions. Scholars were at the top of the Chinese social ladder, not generals. This meant that Chinese generals were usually smart. (though there were some dumb ones)

However, Han military thought assumed that in a war, the generals would fight each other first before letting their infantry fight. Han infantry were mostly equipped with spears and dao (one sided cutting swords). Cavalry and officers used the jian (two-edged sword used for both slashing and stabs) as well as spears, halberds, and other weapons. Sheilds were usually not given to infantry and did not become a common sight until Warring States. Han infantry armor was quite primitive compared to the overlapping steel plates favord by romans.

In a large battle on open terrain, Mr. Han General would probably go out, expecting to be able to fight Roman centurion. Obviously, Roman centurion doesn't come out to play. Roman infantry probably attack the general, since he's so close. The general, with superior martial arts training and weaponry, would be able to hold Romans off until help arrived. One both sides' infantry got in a mix, Roman legionaries would be able to kill many of the Hans.

Han dynasty armor for the frontline soldier consisted of little more than an apron of bamboo or leather armor. The first row of experienced Han soldiers would be cut down by javelins as a result, leaving the less experienced ranks behind them exposed. Of course, Han infantry don't have shields, so no problem with pilums weighing them down. They're either out of the battle or perfectly fine. The Han infantry would have a distance advantage because of their long spears. However, Roman legionarres would be able to block spear attack with sheilds.

It would be quite hard for the Romans to send their light recon cavalry to attack the Han supply chain. Han troops are armed with spears, which are historically the best anti-cavalry weapon besides ranged weaponry. By aiming spears at the horse, all the Roman cavalry suddenly becomes very light infantry.

Han generals would have probably sent cavalry forces to ravage the Roman camps with fire arrows, cutting supply lines. Roman camps, made of wood, become huge bonfires. Any reserve the Romans might have kept would be ravaged. cavalry would then appear in the Roman rear, cutting down the Roman commanders, who have stayed back until this point.

At this point, the Romans would start becoming outnumbered. Short stabbing swords are useless against the wall of spears. Leginarries are too heavy to duck beneath spears and get in close. Against Gauls weilding three-foot swords, it would have worked. However, spears are long enough that the only way to avoid them is to duck. But, Romain sheild is big and clunky, making it hard to move quickly. All the Han spearmen would have to do would be to back up and angle their spears down.

Cavalry waiting for a breakthrough are then suprised from behind and annihilated. Since Han generals were promoted through military acheivement rather than for political reasons like the Romans, they would be far more adept at cavalry vs cavalry warfare. Meanawhile, Crossbow archers in Han ranks shoot bolts right through steel armor. Gaps start appearing in Roman lines. Having wasted their javelins, Roman infantry would be hit hard. They would eventually be surrounded.

At this point, Han archers begin to fire. Romans use testudo formation to block arrows. Fire arrows start falling, and suddenly, lots of roman sheilds start catching fire. Mass panic. (Jupiter must be angry) Eventual surrender. Hans, not knowing of Roman hospitality, 'accidentally' excecute everybody. Chinese victory, albeit with heavy losses.

Depending on the particular style of the Han genreal, there could be a great deal of outcomes. The hans could use a Parthian retreat, firing arrows as they fall back. When regular arrows don't work, they switch to fire arrows. Han general could confront Romans with a small force and allow it to be defeated, lulling the roman general into thinking he has won. A sudden ambush then kills all Romans. Hans might fortify a city. The city would actually be able to hold, since fire arrows and spears would negate seige towers and Roman battering rams and catapults. The only way the Romans could conceiviably win is if they fought defensively, using fortifications, archers, and high ground to destroy Han cavalry. A couple of trenches filled with stakes would end a cavalry charge real soon.

With a tactical, technological, strategical, theological (our emperor is son of god), and numerical advantage, there is no doubt that Han dynasty would win in MOST situations.

zraver

Rather arbitrary, lets call them equal. Julius ceaser after all is just 1 of only 2 people to eve rmount a sucessful invasion Great britian as an example.

Not sure what your getting at here. Centurions were middle ranked like snerior NCO's or captains. They did not lead armies (althougha talented Centurion could find himself mad ea patrician and then eligable for Consul)Genrals and Consuls lead armies and while some like Crassus wer eidiots, the majority were at least competent. Roman military history is full of deception and trickery as well.

You spend an averag eof 10 years training with sword and shield and your baclkbelt. it might not be a Chinese martial art but any advanced skill at arms is a amrtial art. The Romans also had wrestling and Pankration as dedicated weaponless martial arts.

Assuming the Roman cavalry managed to break free frim the larger numbers of Han horse troops long eough to raid the Han trains. These troops were auxilla and probalby celtic, scythina, or Hunnish in orgin and thus armed with bows and javalins.

Against an army that has superior numbers horse troops. Rome will us eit's own cavalry and flying colum sof light infantry and missile troops to screen its flanks until the Roman legionares can deal thier death blow to the enemy infantry. it's a classic double streangth agaisnt weakness contest. Can the Han force the Roman screens before the Legionaires can crush the Han Center and vice versa.

Tell that to the Macedonians who were terrified of the Gladius and the manipulativ elegion that tore thier phalanx's apart.

Actually the tactic was to lock the spear points into the Scutum. In a pushing contest the legionare wins becuase he can lean into his shield using his entire body for leverage and his mates can lean into him. While the spearman has only his grip on the shaft with which to counter. Beating spear armies is how the legion originally developed. First agaisnt etruscun hoplites and later vs macedonian, and other hellenic armies.

Again this is arbitrary and there is no way to quantify it.

Han crowsbow men have two times in the battle to brign their weapons to bear. First as the legions are closing. They will only get off a few volleys thanks to the slow rate of fire and will be being harrassed by Romes auxilla. Mos tof thier shots wil in fact be agaisnt auxilla. Th seocnd time is after the Legions crush the Han infantry. the crossbows can penetrate the Lorica or the scutum, but can they penetrate both? I dont think so, at leas tnot realiably enough to matter.

Your not going to ignite a scutum witha fire arrow. but if you wanna talk fire, we got some greek fire filled pots to show you. imagine a fire you cannot put out, and that sticks to you like glue...now whose gods are angry

Now thats funny. Rome and Han each have tactical, strategic, technological, and theological advantages over the other.

BeeJay

Ah, it reads like a carefully scripted battle-scene from a spectacular movie. In that movie the Han are the heroes and the Romans the bad guys, obligingly following their role in the great Han plan.
So here is my version of the movie were the Romans are the heroes (say, "Gladiator II"). This is set somewhere in Parthian lands.

[Fade in ... wide angle shot of hot, dusty lands, fly over of two vast battle lines, zooming in ...]

Han troops were used to fight horse troopers in the open. Their missiles perfect for cutting down charging horses, their cavalry organised enough to hold back for a well timed flank charge. Their infantry equiped with fierce looking hooked spears, ideal to unsaddle riders.
However Han generals were never extremely battle-wise, often relying on their home studies and carefully recited copies of Sun Tzu's works. So busy with designing another cunning plan against simple steppe nomads, that they forgot about battle field maneuvers. Once on the battle field they would easily be manipulated by their scheming colleagues (who were eager to take over their post), who would accuse them of cowardice so they would unwisely step forward to challenge an opponent, instead of remaining in their HQ to direct troop movements.

From his well chosen command position, the experienced Roman commander comments about this to the consul standing next to him. The consul is the political leader but wisely leaves the fighting to the military leader. No need to give orders: the local centurions will know how to deal with this Han general. At a signal some bowmen run forward and rapidly shoot a dozen or so arrows in the hapless Han general. He falls to the ground ... dead.

Before the Han can react, the Roman line moves forward. First the light troops, they entice the Han shooters to waste their ammo, energy and order on futile salvos against a so open target. At the same time the velites kick up as much dirt as possible, denying the Han a clear line of sight. They then run in and out fo this cloud, trying to pick of Han officers with their javelins.

While this goes on, the Roman cavalry charge the Han flank, but quickly fall back, seemingly disordered thus luring the Han cavalry into a charge. The Roman cavalry know exactly where the safe pathway thru the line of pits and caltrops is ... the Han do not. Those horses that do not break their legs but get thru find an easy target: a single line of nervous Roman auxilia cavalry. But wait, as they are upon the Romans, suddenly legionaires run around the flanks from behind their cavalry and make short work of the engaged Han troopers ... only a few manage to gallop back ... into the caltrop field.

Along the front line, the Han arrows have stopped ... the local commanders cannot see clearly anymore and do not want to waste more precious ammo on those pesky velites. Here they come again, another 'javelin charge'. But wait, those are legionaires ... and they come running at full tilt ... the Han barely have enough time to order their troops to aim and fire ... half the fronline of the Romans collapse, but then the rest is within pilum range. Without decent armor, the Han shooters are like butter to a hot knife. The rear ranks do not wait for the next pilum shower, they turn and run, run to the safety of the Han infantry. But they waited too long and the Romans are too close on their heels.
Before the Han infantry can close ranks again, the heavy pila split their bodies. Then the scuta - locked as a solid wall - crash into the front rank. The momentum and disorder is such that many of the disordered Han simply fall over. The next rank makes a valiant effort to resist, but their clumsy long hook-spears are useless against iron helmets and melee shields: while they try to maneuver their long sticks over the shields, the Romans hack from between the shields, goring legs, arms and anything else that comes too close. At the same time the Romans keep pushing forward, so the Han cannot regain their stance: shove-slash-push-hack, shove-slash-push-hack. The sergeants encourage their men, while the centurions calmly walk up and doen their part of the line to supervise the fighting and scan for possible breaches in the enemy line. All the time the Roman rear ranks keep pouring javelins into the Han rear rankers.

While this goes on, the Roman allies are fighting the Han allies, both local horse troopers figthing to be the next vassal for the empire that wins ... local clans fight out century long feudes, the fighting is mercyless.

Han cavalry can only look at the slaughter of their infantry ... the infantry is now in full flight, closely pursued by the Roman light ... only few of the valiant Han infantry will survive the organised butchery of the flight. The Han cavalry want to intervene, but how? Charging into this mess is no use, rolling up the line is impossible with the Roman legionaires waiting in the center and the flanks full of calltrops and pits.

The Roman commander has seen enough ... no need to change the plan. While his subordinates finish the bloody job, he returns to the saftey of his walled camp, in a spot well chosen. If need be, they could stay and live here for a year or more. "Hmm ... this battle was over much quicker than anticipated. Didn't even have to commit my reserves." The consul shakes his hand: a cheap victory this is, no political backlash in Rome for him.

The Han on the other hand are now left without infantry. Yes, their cavaly still outnumbers the Romans', but not the local Parthians who sense the new weakness of the Han. Besides, without the solid base of infantry, Han cavalry cannot go out in small enough groups to find enough fodder. The new general has no other option then to return home and mobilise another infantry army ...

With their ruthless drilled efficiency, bloodlust, pragmatism, technology, modern economic logic, discipline and high morale, the Romans would no doubt win in MOST situations.

The Gladiator wins ... again.

[End of action scene ... fade out]

BJ

zraver

The next day as the local tribal leaders come into the camp to offer tribute, give hostages, and enlist auxilla the Roman Consul is breathes a sigh of relief. His legions that had butchered the these strange Han are too valuble to leave in one place for long. Already Ceaser has sent word that he needs them elsewhere and this region will remain Roman only as long as Rome apears strong.

Inst

Why don't you guys try CHF, the Chinese History Forum? There, they seem to have better knowledge about the historical Han military. If you hang out here; there's no honor in using an Abrams SEP to run over a bunch of composite bowmen.

Gollevainen

I and rest of the SDF staff would appreciate if you woulnd't advocate/promote/spam some other forum in same sentence together with bashing of ours. Everyone is titled to their own obinion about wich forum is best, but that doesent give excuse for spam-advertise them in here.

Gollevainen, Super Moderator

__________________

Inst

Yes, but this mismatch is just so embarrassing. It's not necessarily true that CHF is better than SDF for historical topics, but it's likely that we would have better arguments for Han viability given the current failure.

Gollevainen

Yeas I have to agree, that this thread rolls bit round and I have closed it couple of times in the past and it hasent improved at all...But my concern was on principal level.
Also, the discussion comes from the members discussing, not from the forum...if these guys would go to some other place to discuss over same matter, How would they suddenly come up with totally new perspective and arguments??

__________________

dengai

Beejay, just like a Hollywood movie, your story is inaccurate and implausible! Han generals must take a martial arts and military literature test every year to prove that they can still be generals. Any citizen, no matter how low, can choose to take the test and challenge the position of any military officer save the emperor. There is no reason for Han subordinate officers to dream of taking over their general's position, since they can do so easily by beating him in a test!

When the Roman archers shoot arrows at the Han general, he simply twirls his spear around and blocks, yes, blocks, their arrows. There are hundreds of historical accounts of Chinese martial arts having the realistic capability to block arrows. The Han general, who must be one of the best martial arts masters in order to have passed his exams, will easily be able to avoid the barrage until he can fall back into the safety of his own lines.

Besides, do you think that Roman cavalry will know the exact paths in the catupult-thrown and hand-spread caltrop field? Even if they do, they will still need to proceed slowly to avoid making a mistake, since their horses don't know about the caltrops. After seeing Romans picking their way so carefully through a seemingly harmless area, Hans will suspect something.

As for the velites, javelins are even easier to block than arrows.

Han bowmen are arranged in a checkerboard pattern with infantrymen. They are also equipped with heavy shields. In the case of an infantry charge, the infanrtrymen swith places with the archers, who are now behind their shields again.

Han spears have a curved hook designed to tear a cavalryman off his horse OR... to catch the top of an enemy shield and pull it away. All Han infantry can do this, and the Roman infantry will DIE.

It is not a standard tactic for Roman cavalry to have infantry supporting it. Finally, ALL HAN CAVALRY HAVE BEEN FIGHTING ENEMY CAVALRY SUPPORTED BY INFANTRY FOR CENTURIES!!!!!!!! The Roman cavalry will be cut down so quickly (javelins have a habit of snapping when a halberd hits them) that the Roman legionarres will only have a couple volleys of javelins. Besides, Han cavalry would never charge into the caltrops in the first place, especially after you claim that the Roman's velites have been running into their own caltrops all day. Um... I think the Hans might eventually figure out that those hooks sticking through the Romans' hobnailed sandals are not standard uniform.

Finally, ROMAN LIGHT CAV ATTACKING EXPERIENCED ANTI-CAV HANS????? Get out of here! What the heck! Han infantry simply pull Romans out of their saddles. If the Roman cavalry uses ranged weapons, Hans try out their crossbows and shortbows.

Go join Hollywood, BeeJay, they have need of historically ignorant folks like you.

And Zraver...

A, Julius Caesar invaded Brittanica twice. The first time, he established a beachead and fought off several Briton counterattacks. However, he failed to transport enough food to allow him to hold out, and he was forced to retreat when his supply ships were wrecked. In the second invasion, the supply ships were once again wrecked. This shows that obviously, Caesar planned poorly and did not learn sufficiently from his earlier failures. The ability to learn from one's mistakes (or the inability to do so) has always been a leading criterion in judging military genius. Finally, when Caesar left, he was so overextended that he did not leave a single Roman soldier behind in Britain.

Yes, Romans did have their own martial arts, but II'm afraid Pankration was a Greek fighting style introduced to their Olympics. Theire is no evidence that the Romans used it as a basic unarmed combat art. Besides, the great Plato thought that Pankration was unsuitable for military use since it did not teach men to stay on their feet. Finally, I meant that the Han General would probably be better trained than the average Roman legionary, not that the Romans had no fighting styles.

As for the Roman cavalry, you cannot have them both protecting their own supply lines and attacking the Han one. If they attack the Han supply train then Han cavalry can easily force the enemy flank. If the Roman cavalry choose to protect their flanks, then the Han supply train is safe.

Han cavalry has the advantage of better numbers, plate armor for officers, and speed. They can afford to make a costly charge at the Roman screens, since once they get in close, missile troops and light troops will be easy to kill. If the Romans use light cavalry, missile troops, and light infantry to act as screens for their flanks, the Han troops, with far larger amounts of cavalry, will be able to sustain its losses until they get close enough to kill the Roman cavalry, which has used up its ranged weapons. Han cavalry will then charge the light infantry, who will be strewing the battlefield with caltrops and throwing javelins.The Han cavalry will be forced to go around the caltrop field, taking medium losses while doing so. However, they will very quickly be able to close in on the velites and slaughter them. A quick charge into the Roman archers will then end the screens for good.

The Macedonian doru spear was 18(!) feet long. If a roman legionary was able to duck under a Macedonian spearthrust, there was no way the hoplite could get his spear around in time!!! The chinese qiang is at most 13 ft long. The more common ten foot spear with anti cavalry hook included can simply be angled down to solve the problem of a Roman human wave attack. The hook can actually be used to push a scuta out of the way and let the spearman get an easy kill. Finally, the phalanx was slow and vulnerable to flank attacks. Look at the Han infantry formations someone put up on this thread. See anything like the phalanx? Nope.

As for the pushing contest, you assume that the Han spearman accepts the challenge. If the spearman raises his spear, all the Romans fall over, or at least are unbalanced enough to become easy targets.

This is how Han generals are promoted: 1) Battlefield promotion 2) martial arts and 3) military strategy exam. The jinshi exam, which was a way that any citizen could obtain an official post, had its origins in a similar exam created by the Han dynasty founder Liu Bang.

Yes, it would be difficult for a crossbow to penetrate both the scutum and Lorica, but it would be much easier than trying it with an arrow. The sight of bolts punching through the heavy shields would already have a great psychological effect. If the bolt hit a gap in the armor or chainmail, it would undoubtably be able to penetrate both the shield and the plate. Actual damage, however, would be affected.

The Roman scutum was primarily constructed with strips of overlapping bentwood. A fire arrow would easily be able to set it afire if it lodged in the shield. Only the metal boss in the middle of the shield would be immune to fire, but it makes up less than one eigth of the shield's area. And what are you doing talking about Greek, or BYZANTINE fire. Romans never used it, so Hans would never face it.

Finally, I notice that you do not claim that Romans have a numerical advantage. Since both Romans and Hans have certain technological and tactical advantages over one another, the advantage of Han numbers would be the ending factor in a Han/Rome war. As Napoleon once claimed, "Victory goes to the bigger battalions."

case closed.

Gollevainen

It's like how Keith Moon described...Rodger Daltrey swing his mircophone so fast, that all the vegtables trowed from the audience slices and falls nicley to Keiths symbals and he has his breakfast salad...


Perhaps you should check your own statements before starting calling others ignorant and idiots...You just earned your first warning. There is zero tolerance towards personal insulting in SDF

You guys have once again showed your incompetent to discuss civilized over this matter and I'm fed up to give you "yet another chances"....Thread closed! Permanetly

Aww - and I was just about about to introduce "Ming Dynasty vs Ming the Merciless" too!! - Sampan

__________________