SinoDefence Forum

ABC78

Rocket King Remembered - FEATURE STORIES - bonlive

Here's a news story I saw about him on BON.

PS this news story is in english.

Troika

We shall see.

Sounds alright, except:

Every individual has his own characteristics. Some Chinese people are articulate and charming, they no doubt promote. Others are not so much. They probably have a negative effect, if anything. Take an example, Chinese counter-protests against Olympic torch protests or Tibet protests, and let's see if a local western find that a particularly fine promotion of Chinese culture, values and interests.

I am not sure how you can possibly assume that just because a Chinese person brings some aspect of China with them they would automatically promote anything. Give you another example. Mid to late 19th century Chinese immigrants to America were a very hard working people. Some of the ideas they bring to the Western mind about China is the stereotypical pig-tailed, dirty, scrapping, dog-eating 'Chinaman'. Still think all overseas Chinese promote Chinese culture just by interacting?

Yes? ANd what's the percentage in each? Are you claiming that an actual majority of persons of Chinese ancestry self-identify as Chinese? If so, show some evidence to back up your claim. Preferably with some statistics, otherwise this is all meaningless. And since you called anecdotal to support your claim, I'll come right back with 'just because your parents want to immerse you in Chinese culture, doesn't mean you'll actually like it or do it, look at any number of 2nd generation persons of Chinese ancestry who rebel against that'.

And oddly enough, you can actually celebrate a sporting event without actually supporting the country. And San Francisco, believe it or not, is an insignficant part of the persons of Chinese ancestry as a whole. I fail to see how you can generalise a bit of real estate with Chinese signage and people turning out on parades does not actually make them Chinese? I am sure they turn out in force to celebrate Christmas, too, does that make them all Christians? At its highest it makes them Chinese-Americans. It does not make them Chinese, and therein lies a big difference..

You fail to understand that people are complex animals. They can hold somewhat different and maybe contradictory ideas in their heads, like 'I am Canadian' and 'I am Chinese' to form their own unique identity. So they can go on a Chinese New Year parade one day and then happily go to Canada Day celebration the next (well, not literally the next day). It's when the chips are down and it comes down to a choice between, say, China and their adoptive homeland - or that of their own - interests that one can determine their loyalty. I want you to look me in the eye and tell me that an 'average person of Chinese ancestry' will put Chinese interests first.

Racist rubbish. I look at Mongolia, they use OUR script, the Cyrillic script, and many of them speak Russian. They don't look assimilated Chinese to me. Just because you can flood Inner Mongolia with immigrants doesn't mean you've successfully assimilated the Mongolian people.

And guess what, assimilating a conqueror is hardly an exclusively Chinese phenomenon. Quite a few peoples did it. Norse and Huns disappeared into Christian European, Rusyn' adopted Greek Orthodoxy and script, the Turks saw themselves and successors of Rome, Persia swallowed up her Arab conquerors, and India ate up more conquerors than you can count. The fact that you actually think this is a unique phenomenon speaks volumes about your skewed view, and even blinder to the fact that assimilation goes both ways. There is a lot of 'barbarian' blood in Chinese culture, starting from the semi-'barbaric' Qin and Chu kingdoms through the volkwanderung of the 4th to 6th centuries, the Tang dynasty, and so on. China's 'identity' CHANGED. You can blindly close your eyes and claim that China retain the same national identity over the last 2 millennia of a sometimes-united Chinese state, but that is equally ignorant, if not more so.

There are plenty of other peoples who endured similar or worse and retained a similar sense of national identity over a similar period. The Jews, the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, even the Turks have an astonishingly robust national consciousness stretching over 1300 years.

China is not unique or special, get over it.

I was in Hong Kong when that happened, the government parade was notable by its sparse attendance. And this is Hong Kong, hardly what you'd called 'overseas Chinese'.

Hogwash. I donated 5,000 HKD to Sichuan, are you saying I am Chinese now? Having sympathies due to common cultural heritage is not the same as identifying oneself as Chinese. JAPAN and KOREA gave large amounts of donation, and so did the largely hostile Taiwan. Are they Chinese too?

I accept that is what you say. Here's an interesting piece of statistics. Over 90% of the 54,000 or so Chinese people who gained PhDs in America since the reopening of overseas studies for PRC residents elected to stay in America, you may take that how you will, I am sure YOU think they all have China in their hearts.

Except China keeps on employing hundreds of thousands of Westerners and Western-trained managers. The problem with you is I debate with facts, and you with rhetoric and opinion.

Are you of the opinion that it's NEVER a zero-sum game? Sometimes there may be none. An Englishman emigrating to America or Australia doesn't really change much of anything. But when there is often power contradictions between your adoptive homeland and your ancestral ones, conflict of interest WILL arise. I am astonished that you cited the Tibet and Olympic counter-protests as examples and yet fail to see that. That's wilful blindness at its worse. Anybody can see that China and the West has areas of conflict.

So what do you serve if a conflict boils over over Taiwan? It's not always Chinese cultural evenings and Chinatown new year parades, you know. When the conflicts are below the surface, it's easy. Try looking at times when things are tough.

I don't even see what that has to do with the issue. I wish to see World Peace, too, doesn't mean we are going to get along with the Latvians tomorrow.


Isolated examples. That's like saying since individual Japanese helped Dr. Sun, therefore Japan contributed greatly to China's revolution. The fact that you take something that happened a century ago and somehow generalised that into something that is true generally speaks volume of the validity of your argument.

Why don't you consider the nation of Singapore? An entire nation of OVerseas Chinese, do they always act for China's best interests?
The crux of the matter is that you made an extremely bold claim that overseas Chinese are out there to promote Chinese interests, I have yet to see a single piece of actual evidence backing this up. Chinese emigrants are people just like any other sort of emigrants, they emigrate for their own personal reasons, they do not go out there for the good of China as a general rule. Back up your assertions with evidence and reasoning, retract it.

solarz

So let me get this straight, you think that overseas Chinese communities have no influence on the culture of their local communities just because some Chinese don't value their culture, and that 19th century Chinese immigrants were at the bottom of the social echelon? And you claim to be arguing with facts? Maybe you should work on your logic instead.

Unless, you're claiming that not all overseas Chinese promote their culture? Well guess what? I agree! Whether or not overseas Chinese promote their culture or choose to assimilate is a personal choice. However, I am here saying that:

1) Overseas Chinese have more opportunities to promote the Chinese culture than those in China, and

2) The spread of Chinese culture and values need not be intentional. Any socio-political interaction carries with it cultural values and interests.



Way to go on a rant that has NOTHING to do with the original issue. I never raised the issue of to what degree various overseas Chinese groups identify with being Chinese as opposed to their adopted country. I am saying that overseas Chinese can and do support the interests of their homeland.

Your insistence on framing "Chinese interest" as in opposition of their adopted country's interest is just a red-herring.


The Chinese culture need not be unique to be special. If you feel that there's nothing impressive about the Chinese culture in history, that's your prerogative. However, the fact remains that China is the only one of the 4 ancient civilizations today that not only survived in its entirety, but is still prospering.



Did you ever take propositional calculus? A => B does not imply that B => A. Just because overseas Chinese donating to the Sichuan earthquake implies that they act in China's interest, doesn't mean that acting in China's interests makes you an overseas Chinese.


Okay, and that invalidates my argument.... how?


Sure, hundreds of thousands? How about you back that up with statistics, hmmm?

On second thought, I don't care. You see, unlike you, I actually know how Chinese society works. Western degrees are like a fad in China right now. Chinese go study abroad to "镀金" (get plated in gold). In other words, to spruce up their resume. And guess what? A management-related diploma is just about the most cost-effective way to do that: it looks impressive, you don't need a specific educational background, it's relatively quick to complete (often in one year or less), and nobody back home will ever realize that you just sat through a bunch of BS courses any 1st year Psych student can figure out on their own. In fact, my cousin's girlfriend just completed one such diploma herself... in 4 months. I guess she figures into your "hundreds of thousands" statistic as well, eh?


I bolded that part. Read it again. Are you honestly saying that by supporting the Beijing Olympics, and by denouncing Western Media's falsehood-laden propaganda on the Tibet riots, overseas Chinese are acting against their adopted country's interests????

Gee, and all this time I thought I was living in a democratic country, where you know, people actually respect TRUTH and FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.


If you think that the contributions of overseas Chinese during the Sino-Japanese war were "isolated examples", you need to learn your history.


Okay dude, here's what I originally wrote:

Where does that say "overseas Chinese will always act in China's interests"?

You talk about evidence? I have given you plenty of evidence to support the above statement. However, you seem to be under the impression that I claimed that overseas Chinese are a monolithic Borg-like entity acting toward the best interests of the mothership.

Well, if you chose to understand it that way, that's your failing.

Damingli85

If what you say is true, then please don't make generalizations about others too. My uncle is a chemist and he wanted ( he is a citizen now) to stay here and he did.

RedMercury

Throughout human society, a relative few are willing to sacrifice their own quality of life to improve the quality of life of others, and for that, they are exalted as heroes. But "others" who? It's expected in almost all societies to care for yourself, your spouse, children, parents, and relatives. It's encouraged by most societies to work for the well-being of other citizens of your country, but not typically expected. To be fair, not every person has the ability even if he or she has the inclination. But, those that do are distinguished. So is it fair to criticize those that do not or could not? From a philosophical point of view, it's not clear at all. But a society or group which expects this of its members and criticizes when its members fail to contribute has a comparative advantage. This evolutionary/social psychologists' argument would conclude that a society faulting people for not contributing when they can is as justified as selfishness and caring for one's genetic relatives is for individuals. My conclusion is, the person who criticizes others for emigrating is justified from the point of view of a member of a society which seeks self preservation, and a person who emigrates is justified from the point of view of the individual. So it comes down to whose interests do you value more? I don't think there is a right or wrong, only competing interests. One's stance is just a reflection of one's interests, and one's arguments often times are created after coming to the conclusion, which is perfectly normal human behavior.

solarz

That's just the thing: this is a false dichotomy. Going back to China doesn't necessarily mean you'll be contributing toward her interests more than if you stayed overseas.

For example, if I went back to China to find a job, I'd be competing against millions of others in the IT field. If I did find a job, I might be taking an employment opportunity away from a rural kid whose family spent their entire savings to put him/her through university.

Rising China

Overseas Chinese around the world do care very much about China, and do want to see a strong and prosperous China. There is always no short of outpouring support for China in every aspects to help China reach her goals. Chinese governments realize the important role played by overseas Chinese in China development; that's why Chinese governments set up a separate department a long time ago for overseas Chinese affairs to facilitate overseas Chinese contributions to the motherland.

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sidewinder01

Once again, please learn to read if that is possible for you. I said many scientists returns to China these days and many people will in the future, however, I never said that every single scientists returns to China now or in the FUTURE, your uncle is just one of Chinese Scientists who decided not to. Please do not question my statement if you ignore the details of my statement everytime, thank you. My father has a M.D he obtained here, he decided to stay so I can complete my education. However, almost all of his fellow visiting scholars who came with him in 1995 under the Chinese Health Department went back after obtaining their PH.Ds on their own, a scientists with a Ph.D from a well-known US university will earn them more respect and status in Chiina than the US as well as a bigger individual future.

bladerunner

So you are most definitely going back to China once you have completed your education?. If so then you must have a very high sense of purpose which deserves praise, unfortunately most of us have fallen prey to life in the decadent west.

sidewinder01

No, never said I would going back. I am merely saying that many people go back to China now these days because China also offer a very nice standard of living provided that you have a nice Certificate to earn it. China is very different now a days, even if you have the talent of Qian and an even higher sense of purpose, it is still very unlikely that you can accomplish anything like what Qian accomplised during his time in China. China has a very different system now; your personal relationship with the higher ups outweighs your actual merit and talent in many cases. That is also a reason why I could see many people decided to not go return to China, at least in the US you chances of becoming a professor is mostly based on your accomplishment in the lab, not your personal relationship with the director....

vesicles

I am thoroughly confused now. You sound like a completely different person this time around. Please explain why you had such a strong feeling against one of my earily posts, the one with me commenting not to judge a person by where he/she decides to live...

Troika

Do read more carefully. I am refuting your claim that people of Chinese ancestry promote Chinese culture just by interacting. Promotion has a positive connotation. I agree that they may or may not showcase Chinese culture, I disagree that they always promote it.

Nowhere did I mention that overseas Chinese have no influence, please don't put words in my mouth.

Not quite, see above for what I am claiming. And,

1) They also have more opportunities to give China a bad name. I don't see how you can assume that simply because they are there, they would necessarily be promoting anything.
2) I don't see how that is relevant to the discussion, the point of the matter is that intentional or not, they may not posit a positive image of China.

Some undoubtedly do, but if you avoid the question of how many do, then your point is meaningless. I can't believe you can make a generalisation like 'I am saying that overseas Chinese can and do support the interests of their homeland.[/quote]' and not see the importance that you have to show at least a pluraltiy of overseas Chinese so doing for your point to be valid. Your statement, ipso facto, suggests that most do.

I'll remind you that until very recently, a lot of overseas Chinese are in fact anti-PRC.

[QUOTE=solarz;109509]Your insistence on framing "Chinese interest" as in opposition of their adopted country's interest is just a red-herring.

I insisted on no such thing. If you read carefully, you'll see that I explicitly allowed for the possibility of China's and the adopted country's interests coinciding. I merely state that they may come into conflict. Your failure to address this eventuality is not my problem.

Again, I said no such thing. I say it's not unique. There is nothing special about the traits you mentioned, it is qutie common amongst human cultures.

The 4 ancient civilisation thing is a common Chinese idea. That does not make it valid. By almost any definition, Chinese culture had adapated and changed so much over the years that there is absolutely no justification on saying it has survived in its entirety as compared to India, to say nothing of the Jews or the Italians.

And in its entirety is a pretty bold claim for a people who don't even wear traditional clothings anymore, fairly unique amongst Asia's peoples. The definition of what 'Chinese' is has changed; the language has changed; the religion has definitely changed. You can probably convincingly argue cultural continuity. Survival in its entirety? Not even close.

I see that you have failed to follow my argument. Allow me to explain it once again.

You have shown that some overseas Chinese sometimes act in China's interest.

I question that claim, citing examples of others which have acted in China's interest, using your example, in the instance of the Sichuan Earthquake.

And since you want to bring mathematical logic into it... I want you to try and think this through ~B => ~A. Does that mean anybody who ever acted against China's interest is not an overseas Chinese? Is that your claim?

It has nothing to do with that particular point, that's why I said 'I accept what you say'.

It was said in response to this:

The thrust there seems to be that those with cutting edge experience has more reason to come back to China. I observe that those with cutting edge experience don't seem to.


Here you go.

Permit holders, in 2007:
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I trust my statistics is sufficiently backed up.

Bold assertion without proof. If you are claiming that most of these foreign nationals working in China are Chinese and/or they mostly have management diplomas, please provide some statistics of your own. And save the quotation marks, my statistics are proven, for somebody who supposedly know how Chinese society works, you seem singularly ignorant on a few things:

1) Great number of ex-patriates work in China
2) If a Chinese person goes overseas to get a degree and then return to work, the likelihood is that he will not figure into the statistics as a foreign national, so I am probably not refering to Chinese who go study abroad
3) Or that that fad is ending, hence the newly emerged term of '海待', see? I can quote random Chinese too!

They are supposed to, that doesn't mean they DO (look, I know how to allcaps!) and if you didn't notice the backlash against the counter-protest, you haven't been paying attention.

The reason the counter-protests happened in the first place is the perceived bias against China on the part of the adoptive/ host nations, or else there won't be a protest at all. Freedom of expression and truth has nothing to do with it.

Oh, and nice ignoring every point of substance in that post, such as:
1) Contradictions do arise between China and the adoptive nation
2) Contradiction may materialise in less-than-nice and very obvious forms such as a war over Taiwan

Let me quote to you what I was originally replying to:

[QUOTE=solarz;109509]Edit:
Ever read about the contributions of overseas Chinese toward the Resistance War against Japan? Did you know that Sun Zhongshan's (Yat-sen) brother lived in America, and that he supported Sun Zhongshan financially throughout his revolutionary activities? Still think overseas Chinese don't act in China's interests?[quote]

Nevermind you misrepresented my position in the first place. I never said overseas Chinese do not act in China's interest, I take issue with your apparent claim that they all do.

You quoted one man who acted in China's interest. It would only matter if I claim no Chinese ever do (you know, mathematical logic?). I made no such claim. It certainly would not prove that all overseas Chinese (in general), do.

How about you tell me what you mean by this:

In response to this:

In retrospect, I can see how I misinterpreted your comment. If your claim is that some overseas Chinese do indeed act in China's interest, then I have nothing further to add and is in agreement.


Cutting through this gigantic mess, let me summarise this rather unfortunate exchange:

- You contend that Chinese can promote China's interest overseas more than they can at home

Here's the quote I quoted initially:

Emphasis mine.

I took issue with this for the following reasons:
1) It seems to suggest that they can be proud of their choice since they can do more for China.
2) They are patriotic
3) They will be able to promote China's interests, culture, etc.
4) China does not need them except in cutting edge cases

I did so because:
1) As in point 1 and 5 of my reply, I strongly question that they can do more for China.
2) It's a generalisation, and it is almost certainly untrue. As I said in points 2-4 in the original reply, Chinese emigrants don't do so for patriotic reasons in general, like all emigrants; and that whatever THEIR reasons were, the effect certainly won't last beyond a generation or two
3) I'll agree that they'll increase exposure to Chinese culture, values, and interests. I strongly disagree that they'll promote them.
4) I do not believe that to be true as stated in point 5 and later replies.

We then talked at cross purposes at great length.

Summarising the position, I'll say this:
1) We'll simply have to disagree on that. You've listed at some length some overseas Chinese who acted in China's interest. I've listed at similar length many who don't. Neither of this addresses the question of doing more for China while overseas. I don't see how one can either, without having some sort of control group of what would happen if they returned to China instead.

However, you made the claim that they can do more for China. the burden is on you not only to prove that they can do something for China, but that they can do more than if they return. I don't believe you have succeeded in demonstrating that.
2) I don't believe patriotism is the primary motivation. Nothing suggests the Chinese emigrant emigrates for reasons different from teh majority of emigrants in history.
3) I question this. I have cited examles where a presence of an overseas Chinese community had indeed not promoted Chinese culture, values and history, but caused an anti-Chinese backlash. I agree that one may so promote, but you said will. If you meant may, then there is no disagreement and I misconstrued your words.
4) I have some evidence to suggest that China does indeed need them as China is facing skilled manpower crisis, as evidenced by the fact that Chinese firms are indeed importing a lot of skilled, professional and managerial labour. Let me clarify that it has nothing to do with whether China has smart people or not. In order to run a strong, innovative and dynamic society, you pretty much always need more talent than you can get just from yourself, that's why America accepted a lot of foreign talent, it's not because America lacks smart people (your milage may vary there...).

Rising China

Biennial World Chinese Entrepreneurs Convention begins in Philippines

November 20, 2009

Tackling tough economic times was top of the agenda when more than 3,000 Chinese businessmen, including 1,000 from China, gathered at the 10th World Chinese Entrepreneurs Convention, which started here Friday.

With a theme of "World Prosperity through Chinese Entrepreneurship", this year's conference, which brings together businessmen of Chinese origin from around the globe, focused on cooperation to weather the ongoing financial crisis and to explore ways for sustainable growth in the private sector.

Philippine President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo and visiting top Chinese political adviser Jia Qinglin attended the opening ceremony.

Addressing the conference, Arroyo said Chinese entrepreneurs had played an important role in cushioning the impacts of global financial crisis and helped bring the world out of recession.

The Philippines and other economies with big Chinese communities weathered the crisis with greater resilience, she said.

Jia, chairman of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC), spoke highly of the contributions overseas Chinese had made in helping China achieve economic prosperity.

"China's remarkable achievements in economic and social development would not have been possible without the outstanding contribution of tens of millions of overseas Chinese," he said.

China's development would make more contribution and bring more opportunities to the world, and provide an even broader platform to overseas Chinese, including overseas Chinese entrepreneurs, he added.

In this case, Jia expressed four wishes for the overseas Chinese entrepreneurs:

-- To integrate into the local society and contribute to economic and social development of the host countries;

-- To carry on the tradition of loving motherland and hometown and actively engage in China's modernization drive;

-- To promote exchanges across the Taiwan Straits and advance the great cause of peaceful reunification of China;

-- And, to bring into full play the overseas Chinese' role as abridge in deepening mutual understanding and friendship between the Chinese people and people around the world.

Since its creation in 1991, the World Chinese Entrepreneurs Convention has served as a leading forum for Chinese businessmen around the world.

Participants in this year's convention will exchange views on reform of the international banking and financial sectors, cooperation between government and non-governmental sectors in promoting development of Chinese businesses and prospects for Chinese businesses in manufacturing and service industries.

Jia praised the convention's significant role in promoting economic growth in countries where it was held and in enhancing the international standing of overseas Chinese communities.

Likewise, Vice Chairman of this year's convention Alfonso Uy said in a speech that the interaction and cooperation between Chinese was particularly important as impacts of the crisis were lingering in the world economy.

It "will serve as the platform to deepen exchanges, grasp the pulse of the world's trend, and put our hands together, to overcome the challenges," said Uy, who heads the Federation of Filipino-Chinese Chambers of Commerce and Industry, Inc.

Robin Chan Yau Hing, chairman of Asia Financial Holdings Ltd., said the global economy was undergoing drastic changes and cooperation would be the only path of progress for Chinese entrepreneurs.

Regarding China-Philippines relations, Jia lauded the long and profound friendship between the two countries.

Since the establishment of diplomatic ties in 1975, bilateral relations had made a lot of headway, with markedly enhanced mutual political trust, notable achievements in cooperation in various fields and more regular high-level visits, Jia said.

In April 2005, the bilateral relationship entered a new stage when the two sides agreed to establish a strategic and cooperative relationship for peace and development during a visit by President Hu Jintao, he added.

The Philippines president agreed with Jia and said she hoped the convention could further enhance the Philippines-China relationship.

Source: Xinhua