Do you think Wu Sangui is a traitor for Han Chinese?

Originally Posted by solarz

Vesicles, just a few points I'd like to address:

1- By all accounts that I've read, Chen Yuanyuan was Wu Sangui's concubine when Li Zicheng took her. This is a wikipedia link: Chen Yuanyuan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If you read the wikipedia info, it says CYY was a courtesan, which isn't the same thing as a prostitute. Courtesans were more akin to performers than to sex-workers, though they probably did sleep with those who were willing to pay a high price.

Also, the "legend" of why Wu defected isn't really there to "exculpate" him. I think that for this tale to have been circulated, it must have been common knowledge that Wu valued CYY very highly.

Yes, Chen was a courtesan, which was at the time considered as high-class prostitute. In ancient China, women were not allowed to "show their faces in public". In other words, they can't interact with other men. Any profession involving showing their faces in public and interacting with men was considered as prostitution. This was why all performers in Peking opera are male, even those who have to portray female characters.

Also as Wikipedia points out, she's been concubine with quite a few men. And ancient China valued a woman's 'purity and loyalty" with one man greatly. So it would be hard to imagine how highly Wu actually valued Chen since she's not "pure" and wasn't very loyal either.

Originally Posted by solarz

2- I agree with your "space vs time" assessment, but I'm saying that even if Li Zicheng had enough time, it's unlikely that he would've been able to mount a successful defense against the Qing. The fact that he started purging his generals already shows he wasn't expecting a Qing invasion.

Again, most of the founding emperors did the same thing. He might not expect a Qing invasion, but that does not mean he couldn't respond to it fast enough. Most of the military attacks have been mounted in the fashion of a surprise attacks. That's why the element of surprise is so important in battle. Germany attacked the Soviets in a surprise attack. And Stalin even refused to believe the German invasion during the first phase of the war and purged many of his generals defending the border thinking that they might be rebelling against him. This would fit nicely in your description of "some leader not expecting a foreign invasion". It even fits the "purging general" part of the scenario. Yet, the Soviets not only survived the invasion, but fought back and invaded their attacker. This is because the Societs was big enough to absorb the first blow and was able to regroup. China, in this sense, is very similar to the Soviets. China is big enough to absorb the blow IF its govn't survived this first blow. The tragic of Li Zicheng was that Beijing was so close to the border and Manchurians were able to get to Beijing and mount a surprise attack on the capital city overnight. Li didn't have any time to do anything. And this was all because of Wu's decision to open the Pass.

Originally Posted by vesicles

Germany attacked the Soviets in a surprise attack. And Stalin even refused to believe the German invasion during the first phase of the war and purged many of his generals defending the border thinking that they might be rebelling against him. This would fit nicely in your description of "some leader not expecting a foreign invasion". It even fits the "purging general" part of the scenario. Yet, the Soviets not only survived the invasion, but fought back and invaded their attacker. This is because the Societs was big enough to absorb the first blow and was able to regroup. China, in this sense, is very similar to the Soviets. China is big enough to absorb the blow IF its govn't survived this first blow. The tragic of Li Zicheng was that Beijing was so close to the border and Manchurians were able to get to Beijing and mount a surprise attack on the capital city overnight. Li didn't have any time to do anything.

I think you're overestimating the control that Li Zicheng had over China. He was not like Stalin, who had the full resources of USSR at his disposal. Li's regime was newly minted, and he only had the loyalty of his rebellion army, and not the full military might of the Ming.

It's also inaccurate to say that Li was the government of China at the time. He really governed nothing before his defeat to the Qing. Many of the remaining Ming generals, if not all of them, despised Li for what he did, and would never have acknowledged his leadership. The fact is, had Li been given more time, he would very likely have spent it FIGHTING the remaining Ming generals than mounting a defense against Qing!

Also, remember that although Li took Beijing, the remainder of China was still loyal to the Ming, and fought against the invading Qing. In fact, ferocious battles took place in Yang Zhou and Jia Xing, but the Ming armies were still defeated.

In fact, if you're talking about Ming losing the war due to losing its government, that was not done by the Qing, but by Li!

Originally Posted by solarz

I think you're overestimating the control that Li Zicheng had over China. He was not like Stalin, who had the full resources of USSR at his disposal. Li's regime was newly minted, and he only had the loyalty of his rebellion army, and not the full military might of the Ming.

That's definitely true. However, Li had about a million troops under his command. Li could also allied with the old Ming troops, like what CCP and KMT did in WWII when faced with an invasion. You never know. Yes, there were still a lot of Ming troops around when Li took over Beijing. However, without Qing invading China, these troops might simply lay down their arms and surrender. The Ming govn't had been destroyed and its emperor dead. Many generals would simply see no point in defending a lost cause. In fact, many have done so before that. However, a foreign invasion by Qing would definitely be treated differently. People see less of a problem surrendering to a new CHINESE govn't. As has been shown many times in Chinese history, many officials from the old dynasty would simply take the same position in the new govn't and no one would think there's anything wrong with that. However, surrendering to a foreign invasion would be too hard to swallow for most people. That's why the fighting was so ferocious between old Ming troops and Qing in Yang Zhou. If Li was still around, these same Ming troops might rally around him in order to fight the invasion. So Li might have gotten a lot more control than he actually had at the time.

In fact, part of why Qing won the war was because China at the time was without a leader. No one was leading the fight against the invasion. Everyone was isolated and fighting their own battle. IF Li survived, he could easily become a rallying point and a national leader.

Originally Posted by solarz

In fact, if you're talking about Ming losing the war due to losing its government, that was not done by the Qing, but by Li!

I don't think I ever mentioned that it was Qing that destroyed Ming. Qing invaded China. That was the point I'm trying to make.

Also, I am not saying Li would definitely win a war against Manchurians. All I'm saying is that Li would have had a lot more options IF Wu did not open the Shanhai Pass. No one knows. China would've had a chance with a widely recognized leader and more time to prepare for war. Yet, with the defeat of Li, China had none. This was all because of Wu.

Again, I am not saying Li could defeat Qing's invasion. I simply find it hard to swallow your belief that no matter what, Qing's victory in China was a done deal. It seems that you claimed that it's only a matter of time that Qing would conquer China. This might as well happen even if Li survived and Wu remained loyal to China, but China had a lot more to offer than we give her credit for. History has shown time and time again that what has been perceived as invincible turns out not to be. Many great armies that have been predicted to win it all have been defeated by seemingly weak enemies. So even IF Qing's army was as strong as they claimed to be at the time, it would be difficult to predict the outcome of the war if any of the conditions was changed. And what I'm talking about is a change in a major factor: survival of a potential national leader.

Originally Posted by vesicles

That's definitely true. However, Li had about a million troops under his command. Li could also allied with the old Ming troops, like what CCP and KMT did in WWII when faced with an invasion. You never know. Yes, there were still a lot of Ming troops around when Li took over Beijing. However, without Qing invading China, these troops might simply lay down their arms and surrender. The Ming govn't had been destroyed and its emperor dead. Many generals would simply see no point in defending a lost cause. In fact, many have done so before that. However, a foreign invasion by Qing would definitely be treated differently. People see less of a problem surrendering to a new CHINESE govn't. As has been shown many times in Chinese history, many officials from the old dynasty would simply take the same position in the new govn't and no one would think there's anything wrong with that. However, surrendering to a foreign invasion would be too hard to swallow for most people. That's why the fighting was so ferocious between old Ming troops and Qing in Yang Zhou. If Li was still around, these same Ming troops might rally around him in order to fight the invasion. So Li might have gotten a lot more control than he actually had at the time.

In fact, part of why Qing won the war was because China at the time was without a leader. No one was leading the fight against the invasion. Everyone was isolated and fighting their own battle. IF Li survived, he could easily become a rallying point and a national leader.



I don't think I ever mentioned that it was Qing that destroyed Ming. Qing invaded China. That was the point I'm trying to make.

Also, I am not saying Li would definitely win a war against Manchurians. All I'm saying is that Li would have had a lot more options IF Wu did not open the Shanhai Pass. No one knows. China would've had a chance with a widely recognized leader and more time to prepare for war. Yet, with the defeat of Li, China had none. This was all because of Wu.

Again, I am not saying Li could defeat Qing's invasion. I simply find it hard to swallow your belief that no matter what, Qing's victory in China was a done deal. It seems that you claimed that it's only a matter of time that Qing would conquer China. This might as well happen even if Li survived and Wu remained loyal to China, but China had a lot more to offer than we give her credit for. History has shown time and time again that what has been perceived as invincible turns out not to be. Many great armies that have been predicted to win it all have been defeated by seemingly weak enemies. So even IF Qing's army was as strong as they claimed to be at the time, it would be difficult to predict the outcome of the war if any of the conditions was changed. And what I'm talking about is a change in a major factor: survival of a potential national leader.

Agreed with many of your points. However, there is one assumption that we have not made. All the old Ming Generals that are left over after Li Zhicheng took over Beijing are in control of their own troops.

There are a few things that they could do,

1) Lay down arms (as you have suggested).
2) Fight Li Zhicheng for various reasons - such as avenging the old dynasty, fight to control China so that they themselves can be king.

The second was more apparent for Wu Sangui. He knew that he couldn't defeat Li Zhicheng alone, he needed the Qing Army's help. Thus he opened the gate and let in the Manchurian... and in actual fact, he was made king in control of a vast area - Yunnan...

Originally Posted by rhino123

Agreed with many of your points. However, there is one assumption that we have not made. All the old Ming Generals that are left over after Li Zhicheng took over Beijing are in control of their own troops.

There are a few things that they could do,

1) Lay down arms (as you have suggested).
2) Fight Li Zhicheng for various reasons - such as avenging the old dynasty, fight to control China so that they themselves can be king.

The second was more apparent for Wu Sangui. He knew that he couldn't defeat Li Zhicheng alone, he needed the Qing Army's help. Thus he opened the gate and let in the Manchurian... and in actual fact, he was made king in control of a vast area - Yunnan...

I think that's the key in our little "what if" scenario. Personally, I believe most of the old Ming Generals would have refused to work with Li Zicheng.

Remember that although History places the fall of Ming at the death of Chongzheng, the people living at those times did not believe so! Members of the imperial family did escape, and various old Ming factions raised their own "Emperor". In fact, Wu Sangui hunted and killed one of those "Emperors" in Myanmar.

I bring this up to say that the old Ming Generals would not have thought that the Ming dynasty was gone, and thus would not have followed Li.

Originally Posted by solarz

I think that's the key in our little "what if" scenario. Personally, I believe most of the old Ming Generals would have refused to work with Li Zicheng.

Remember that although History places the fall of Ming at the death of Chongzheng, the people living at those times did not believe so! Members of the imperial family did escape, and various old Ming factions raised their own "Emperor". In fact, Wu Sangui hunted and killed one of those "Emperors" in Myanmar.

I bring this up to say that the old Ming Generals would not have thought that the Ming dynasty was gone, and thus would not have followed Li.

Yes. And I believe some of them would even thought of rebelling against Li Zhicheng, since all these generals had their own army, and took the throne.

Originally Posted by rhino123

Agreed with many of your points. However, there is one assumption that we have not made. All the old Ming Generals that are left over after Li Zhicheng took over Beijing are in control of their own troops.

There are a few things that they could do,

1) Lay down arms (as you have suggested).
2) Fight Li Zhicheng for various reasons - such as avenging the old dynasty, fight to control China so that they themselves can be king.

The second was more apparent for Wu Sangui. He knew that he couldn't defeat Li Zhicheng alone, he needed the Qing Army's help. Thus he opened the gate and let in the Manchurian... and in actual fact, he was made king in control of a vast area - Yunnan...

These are all valid points. I don't doubt any one of them. I think my point is that if Wu kept his defense intact, China would have had more options. With these potential options, the victory of Qing would not be that destined.

I actually think that the situation at the end of Min dynasty would be comparable to the time before WWII in China. In the 1930's, there were many factions and local warlords in China and the country was seriously divided. In fact, China had been in a nation-wide civil war for 70-80 years when Japan invaded China in 1937 (from Opium war, Taiping, invasion of eight nations, end of Qing, northern expedition, etc). So in terms of the conditions in China, I don't think it would be too much to say that it's pretty similar to what was like at the end of Ming. In 1930's, although KMT's Jiang was officially considered as the leader of China, majority of China was definitely not under his command. Many warlords were battling it out to gain power. This of course include CCP. Many of these factions, including CCP and KMT, were still battling each other during the fight against the Japanese. So the chaotic situation was not unlike the end of Ming.

And I am almost 100% sure that the gap between Japan's military strength and that of China's in 1930's was a lot bigger than the gap between Manchuria and China at the end of Ming dynaty. Yet, the strategy of space vs time worked in WWII. It shows that in a nation as big as China, so long as any form of govn't stays intact, it has a chance against a foreign invasion. So it would not be surprising at all that the same strategy would also work at the end of Ming dynasty.

We can talk about all the possibilities for or against China's potential chance to survive Qing's invasion. We cannot deny that China would have a lot more options if Wu stayed loyal to China. Any of those options may help China stay independent and push Manchurians out.

Oh, one more point. It has been suggested that Manchurians could easily enter China from somewhere else if Wu did not open the Pass. Well, Manchurians had been courting Wu for a long time, even promising him the chance to become the new emperor of China at one point of time. The fact that they didn't bother bribing other Ming generals in other locations suggest that Shanhai Pass is actually strategically important and other entrances may not be as useful. So either it was legistically impossible to get into China via other entrances or they would have had to go through many more obstacles if the chose other Passes. So that definitely suggests the strategic importance of the Shanhai Pass. And by giving up such important strategic location, Wu definitelt bears the most of the blame for the fall of China.

Also, I believe that saying "Manchurians could've done it via other ways" sounds a lot like shifting responsibility. It's like someone is caught shop-lifting. The thief might say "well, the security of that store is so low, someone will steal those clothes sooner or later even if I don't steal it..." that does not change the fact that he/she is a thief. Excuses, excuses, excuses...

So stop giving him excuses. Call him for what he is, a traitor.

Originally Posted by vesicles

These are all valid points. I don't doubt any one of them. I think my point is that if Wu kept his defense intact, China would have had more options. With these potential options, the victory of Qing would not be that destined.

I actually think that the situation at the end of Min dynasty would be comparable to the time before WWII in China. In the 1930's, there were many factions and local warlords in China and the country was seriously divided. In fact, China had been in a nation-wide civil war for 70-80 years when Japan invaded China in 1937 (from Opium war, Taiping, invasion of eight nations, end of Qing, northern expedition, etc). So in terms of the conditions in China, I don't think it would be too much to say that it's pretty similar to what was like at the end of Ming. In 1930's, although KMT's Jiang was officially considered as the leader of China, majority of China was definitely not under his command. Many warlords were battling it out to gain power. This of course include CCP. Many of these factions, including CCP and KMT, were still battling each other during the fight against the Japanese. So the chaotic situation was not unlike the end of Ming.

And I am almost 100% sure that the gap between Japan's military strength and that of China's in 1930's was a lot bigger than the gap between Manchuria and China at the end of Ming dynaty. Yet, the strategy of space vs time worked in WWII. It shows that in a nation as big as China, so long as any form of govn't stays intact, it has a chance against a foreign invasion. So it would not be surprising at all that the same strategy would also work at the end of Ming dynasty.

We can talk about all the possibilities for or against China's potential chance to survive Qing's invasion. We cannot deny that China would have a lot more options if Wu stayed loyal to China. Any of those options may help China stay independent and push Manchurians out.

Oh, one more point. It has been suggested that Manchurians could easily enter China from somewhere else if Wu did not open the Pass. Well, Manchurians had been courting Wu for a long time, even promising him the chance to become the new emperor of China at one point of time. The fact that they didn't bother bribing other Ming generals in other locations suggest that Shanhai Pass is actually strategically important and other entrances may not be as useful. So either it was legistically impossible to get into China via other entrances or they would have had to go through many more obstacles if the chose other Passes. So that definitely suggests the strategic importance of the Shanhai Pass. And by giving up such important strategic location, Wu definitelt bears the most of the blame for the fall of China.

Also, I believe that saying "Manchurians could've done it via other ways" sounds a lot like shifting responsibility. It's like someone is caught shop-lifting. The thief might say "well, the security of that store is so low, someone will steal those clothes sooner or later even if I don't steal it..." that does not change the fact that he/she is a thief. Excuses, excuses, excuses...

So stop giving him excuses. Call him for what he is, a traitor.

Yes, agreed with you. Wu Sangui is no doubt a traitor, a traitor down to his very bones from the two dynasty that he had betrayed (first is the Ming, then the Qing). There are no excuses or reasons that could excuse him from being labeled as a traitor.

Seems like Wu sangui is not the first Ming general to submit to Manchus..

Before that, many capable Ming general were serving under Manchu's army. As I say, Manchus without these addition Han army and general. They will not have defeated the Ming dynasty.

Hong Chengchou - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Revolt of the Three Feudatories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What is the reason why so many Ming Generals and soldier decide to join Manchu?

Originally Posted by Lion

What is the reason why so many Ming Generals and soldier decide to join Manchu?

There are quite a few reasons for it... the most obvious ones are that the Ming Dynasty emperor do not trust the generals too much and for every expedition, the emperor would sent the enunch to follow the generals. These enunch know nothing about warfare and was always pulling down the entire army, but these enunchs have more power than the generals themselves.

Another reasons was that the Qing promises more wealth and power to these generals if they submit themselves to the Qing. The Ming at that time are corrupted and on the verge of collapsing, so there really is no loyalty from many of the generals.

Originally Posted by rhino123

There are quite a few reasons for it... the most obvious ones are that the Ming Dynasty emperor do not trust the generals too much and for every expedition, the emperor would sent the enunch to follow the generals. These enunch know nothing about warfare and was always pulling down the entire army, but these enunchs have more power than the generals themselves.

Another reasons was that the Qing promises more wealth and power to these generals if they submit themselves to the Qing. The Ming at that time are corrupted and on the verge of collapsing, so there really is no loyalty from many of the generals.

Probably these general believe bring a Qing dynasty will bring better well being and life to ordinary Ming subjects? I heard near the ending of Ming dynasty. Ming government was extreme corrupted and cruel to ordinary Chinese people. Li zhicheng was one good example who was drove to rebel against Ming government. It probably explained why Li rebel gain popularity so fast and grow so strong. But Li zhicheng was heard more like a bandit group after they topple the Ming. I heard they ransack the Beijing for 3 days, robbing anything and killing at any will.

The general probably think using Qing to rid of all these corrupted Ming and rebel like Li zicheng was the best solution first.

I personally think personal wealth and power offer by Qing might not be enough to bring these general to their side. Its easy for us to criticise these general now. But how can we understand the hardship and chaotic moment during the dying moment of Ming Dynasty which brought to ordinary people?

Originally Posted by vesicles

Also, I believe that saying "Manchurians could've done it via other ways" sounds a lot like shifting responsibility. It's like someone is caught shop-lifting. The thief might say "well, the security of that store is so low, someone will steal those clothes sooner or later even if I don't steal it..." that does not change the fact that he/she is a thief. Excuses, excuses, excuses...

So stop giving him excuses. Call him for what he is, a traitor.

It's not excuses. I agree that Wu Sangui is a traitor, regardless of what *could* have happened. Treason is defined by one's intentions, and not by the consequences of one's actions.

It is refreshing to read this thread, and surprise to see SO MANY people somewhat familiar to China's history. Might I ask that among all the posts in this thread, anyone who is NOT an ethnic Chinese? That would be really surprise (and pround to heard).

My opinion, that MODERN Chinese CITIZENS, got a little "caught-flat-feeted" to China's historic prospect:

For modern Chinese society, it is a MUST, to tighten up the harmonic relationship between the majority race and the minority races of which Manchu among them; And what CCP has done in the history, is justifiable to the concept of "Being good for the Chinese people" (watchout the EXACTLY words!)

It is sensitive to some issue(like this thread), and even overseas Chinese ethnic people SHALL definitely being influnced in certain degree.

Think this: You can not give some kind of unresting suggestion to MODERN Manchu ethic Chinese citizens, that your ancestors were once considered non-Chinese (non-中华民族, which is odd to either citizenship or ethic diffination); it is BETTER NOT to memtion these non-Chinese people has invaded China sovereignty and later SUBMIT to Chinese culture, only because they can not kill off all the Chinese. And now they are (have to) being considerd as "among Chinese" 中华民族一员.


So when Wu sangui BETRAIED the Chinese ethnic and Chinese sovereignty to the later "among Chinese" (yet another race and sovereignty) kind of people - Even people without his political agenda, can be very confused.

Me, at other hand, considering this: If Japan successfully "take over" China during WWII, despite what ever NEW govt would say about it later, that Japan and Japenese, are definately non-Chinese. You guys can think similiar like if Japan takes over USA or Canada, or whatever "one takes over another" - Surrender to the one who "take over", especially HELPS KILLING the original people. That's undeniablly BETRAY in any measure. And the idea to sugar up any of that kind of betray, is an direct insult to A WHOLE SOVEREIGNTY RACE. and by that measure, an direct insult to NORMAL(SANE) HUMAN MORAL.

I have no single doubt, Manchu at that time, is a life-or-death enemy of China (watchout the EXACT words!), and Wu sangui's action have no single excuss. He is a traitor as long as human moral stands.