Do you think Wu Sangui is a traitor for Han Chinese?

What you are saying is a very typical traitor's saying,I think any traitors in the world have very sufficent reason to be tratior.To han people, dead is much more honorable than be a traitor.
So traitor is traitor,

for han chinese, i do
but, for all of chinese. i do not think so.

Ming dynasty is a very dark times, such as grievous corruption and emperors at the end of Ming are badly.

Originally Posted by LeeFuchen

for han chinese, i do
but, for all of chinese. i do not think so.

Ming dynasty is a very dark times, such as grievous corruption and emperors at the end of Ming are badly.

Please do not confuse an act of treason with a domestic rebellion. A domestic rebellion is considered as a treason to the old govn't, but not to the country. If Wu simply destroyed Ming dynasty on his own and established his own dynasty and became an emperor himself, yes, he would not be considered a traitor. However, he handed China to a foreign power. THAT is treason to the highest power. let's not forget Manchurians were NOT considered Chinese. The Manchuria had always been considered as foreign by Chinese before that time. Several infamous foreign invasions of China came from powers in that area throughout CHinese history (Liao and Jin). Additionally, only a few years before they marched into the Shanhai Pass, the Manchurians forced the Ming emperor to formally recognize them as the Empire of Later Jin. So no matter how you look at it, Wu handed over China to a foreign power. That, my friend, is treason.

Plus, let's also be clear of what China was at the time. Long before Ming dynasty, China has been a multi-ethic nation and had many ethic groups including Han. Even some emperors were not Han (like Li Shimin of Tang dynasty). Additionally, the emperors of Ming dynasty were muslims, which belong to Hui ethic group and NOT of Han origin. Many founders of the Ming dynasty were also muslim. So at the time of Wu Sangui, China did not belong to Han alone, but all Chinese ethic groups. So strictly speaking, Wu Sangui did not betray Han, but Hui ethic group since Ming dynasty was the personal property of the Ming emperor's and he was not a Han but a Hui. And no one should consider him a traitor simply because he destroyed Ming dynasty. Many before him and after him have destroyed old Chinese govn'ts/dynasties. None of them has been branded a traitor. Many greatest emperors in Chinese history have been founders of new dynasties, which means they all destroyed/betrayed their old govn't. Yet, most of them have been considered wisest and greatest by Chinese people. Wu Sangui has been consider a traitor because he betrayed China as a nation.

Originally Posted by vesicles

Plus, let's also be clear of what China was at the time. Long before Ming dynasty, China has been a multi-ethic nation and had many ethic groups including Han. Even some emperors were not Han (like Li Shimin of Tang dynasty). Additionally, the emperors of Ming dynasty were muslims, which belong to Hui ethic group and NOT of Han origin. Many founders of the Ming dynasty were also muslim. So at the time of Wu Sangui, China did not belong to Han alone, but all Chinese ethic groups. So strictly speaking, Wu Sangui did not betray Han, but Hui ethic group since Ming dynasty was the personal property of the Ming emperor's and he was not a Han but a Hui. And no one should consider him a traitor simply because he destroyed Ming dynasty. Many before him and after him have destroyed old Chinese govn'ts/dynasties. None of them has been branded a traitor. Many greatest emperors in Chinese history have been founders of new dynasties, which means they all destroyed/betrayed their old govn't. Yet, most of them have been considered wisest and greatest by Chinese people. Wu Sangui has been consider a traitor because he betrayed China as a nation.

Er... no. Founder of the Ming Dynasty cannot be a muslim. He is once a monk and by that, he cannot be a muslim. But he did have many muslims generals in his army and he written praises for the muslim, and had muslim mosques being built. But that doesn't translate into him and his descendents being muslim.

It's hard to say.But i trust if Wu dont open the gate and let Manchu enter mainland,the history of china will be changed.

Originally Posted by sdleio

It's hard to say.But i trust if Wu dont open the gate and let Manchu enter mainland,the history of china will be changed.

I bet to differ. Ming dynasty is already being crush before the Qing actually enter China. The reason for Wu Sangui to open the gate for the Manchu to enter was because he had something he could gain and he was not strong enough to defeat the rebel troops. So he needed the Manchu's aid.

As to the Manchurian, I believe they are strong enough to take down Wu Sangui whether or not Wu Sangui wanted to defend or fight. And so it would do good for Wu Sangui to ally himself with the stronger Manchurian.

In the beginning when the Manchurian just entered China, they are actually flying the banner of wanting to avenge the Ming...

In all event though... Wu Sangui is a traitor (there is no doubting about it.) He is a traitor to the Ming (although many would argue that Ming was already destroyed before the Qing's entry) but he is a traitor in a sense that instead of helping or leading his troop in the aid of the Ming dynasty, he allied himself with a foreign power.

Then he is a traitor to the Qing dynasty by uprising against it. And so he is a traitor down to his bone.

Originally Posted by sdleio

It's hard to say.But i trust if Wu dont open the gate and let Manchu enter mainland,the history of china will be changed.

do you hear the word? history no " if ".

Originally Posted by rhino123

Er... no. Founder of the Ming Dynasty cannot be a muslim. He is once a monk and by that, he cannot be a muslim. But he did have many muslims generals in his army and he written praises for the muslim, and had muslim mosques being built. But that doesn't translate into him and his descendents being muslim.

According to Wikipedia, Zhu Yuan Zhang (the founder of Ming) was a member of a Muslim rebel group led by Guo Zhixin. This suggests that he MAY be a muslim. However, his wife, Ma, WAS indeed a muslim (see Islam section on the Wiki page).

Hongwu Emperor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This makes at least part of the royal family muslim.

Originally Posted by rhino123

As to the Manchurian, I believe they are strong enough to take down Wu Sangui whether or not Wu Sangui wanted to defend or fight. And so it would do good for Wu Sangui to ally himself with the stronger Manchurian.

I don't think the Manchurians could enter China without Wu opening the Pass. The Shanhai Pass was extremely well-defended at the time. Manchurians had been attacking the Pass for many years without any success. That's why Wu's army was at the time considered as invincible. Before Wu decided to open the Pass, Manchurians almost gave up the idea of entering China simply because they could not get through the Shanhai Pass. The fact that Machurians was still outside of the Pass before Wu opened the gate suggests that the Pass was well defended and Manchurians could not get in. Since China and Manchuria had been at war for decades before that time, if they could sack Shanhai, they would've done it long time ago. Bear in mind that their first emperor died in the hands of Chinese army (by artillery fire). If they could, they would've avenged his death long time ago. Yet, Shanhai Pass stood in front of them and they had absolutely no way of sacking it, until Wu opened it wide, that is...

Originally Posted by vesicles

I don't think the Manchurians could enter China without Wu opening the Pass. The Shanhai Pass was extremely well-defended at the time. Manchurians had been attacking the Pass for many years without any success. That's why Wu's army was at the time considered as invincible. Before Wu decided to open the Pass, Manchurians almost gave up the idea of entering China simply because they could not get through the Shanhai Pass. The fact that Machurians was still outside of the Pass before Wu opened the gate suggests that the Pass was well defended and Manchurians could not get in. Since China and Manchuria had been at war for decades before that time, if they could sack Shanhai, they would've done it long time ago. Bear in mind that their first emperor died in the hands of Chinese army (by artillery fire). If they could, they would've avenged his death long time ago. Yet, Shanhai Pass stood in front of them and they had absolutely no way of sacking it, until Wu opened it wide, that is...

Well, you have to remember that there is more than one pass leading into China. With the fall of Ming, the Manchus could easily have found a less well defended pass to strike at. The fact that Wu opened the pass for them simply made their job easier, and with less casualties.

Originally Posted by solarz

Well, you have to remember that there is more than one pass leading into China. With the fall of Ming, the Manchus could easily have found a less well defended pass to strike at. The fact that Wu opened the pass for them simply made their job easier, and with less casualties.

Yes, but all those passes were also heavily defended.

Yes, Ming fell, but Li Zicheng could've easily taken over all the other defensive positions. I think Li was more capable than we give him credit for. Yes, he only spent 100 days in BEijing and yes he was defeated badly by the Manchurians. But he was caught off-guard. His army was highly disorganized after he entered Beijing. Don't forget that he defeated Ming who was holding Manchurians in check at virtually all defensive positions along with Northern border. He could easily do the same. IF Wu did not open the Shanhai Pass, Manchurians would have had to pick somewhere else, which they have done before with no success (that's why they aligned with the Mongolians). Li would have had enough time to clear his head and clean up his own mess and shore up the defenses elsewhere.

Furthermore, Shanhai Pass is very close to Beijing (only about a couple of hours from Beijing if taking a train). I would guess overnight for a light cavalry?? And there is virtually nothing between the Pass and Beijing city. Once Manchurians entered the Pass, Li Zhcheng had no time to prepare. that was why Li was defeated that fast. If Manchurians picked somewhere else, it would have taken much longer for them to get to Beijing and they would have to fight to get through other fortresses to get to Beijing. Let's face it, Manchurians and Chinese had been fighting for decades before that point. It would not be hard to imagine that all the routes to Beijing had been fortified heavily. Ming dynasty had always been suspicious of the Mongolians. So the entire Northern border was all well-defended. I'm sure the Manchurians and Mongolians had explored all the options during decades of fighting with China. the fact that they were still outside of the great wall suggest that none of the options was working. All the infrastructures were already there. All Li had to do was to put his men there. When they were attacking those other passes, Li would be able to detect their movement and prepare for it in Beijing. The outcome of the supposed war would be hard to predict.

Originally Posted by vesicles

Yes, but all those passes were also heavily defended.

Yes, Ming fell, but Li Zicheng could've easily taken over all the other defensive positions. I think Li was more capable than we give him credit for. Yes, he only spent 100 days in BEijing and yes he was defeated badly by the Manchurians. But he was caught off-guard. His army was highly disorganized after he entered Beijing. Don't forget that he defeated Ming who was holding Manchurians in check at virtually all defensive positions along with Northern border. He could easily do the same. IF Wu did not open the Shanhai Pass, Manchurians would have had to pick somewhere else, which they have done before with no success (that's why they aligned with the Mongolians). Li would have had enough time to clear his head and clean up his own mess and shore up the defenses elsewhere.

Furthermore, Shanhai Pass is very close to Beijing (only about a couple of hours from Beijing if taking a train). I would guess overnight for a light cavalry?? And there is virtually nothing between the Pass and Beijing city. Once Manchurians entered the Pass, Li Zhcheng had no time to prepare. that was why Li was defeated that fast. If Manchurians picked somewhere else, it would have taken much longer for them to get to Beijing and they would have to fight to get through other fortresses to get to Beijing. Let's face it, Manchurians and Chinese had been fighting for decades before that point. It would not be hard to imagine that all the routes to Beijing had been fortified heavily. Ming dynasty had always been suspicious of the Mongolians. So the entire Northern border was all well-defended. I'm sure the Manchurians and Mongolians had explored all the options during decades of fighting with China. the fact that they were still outside of the great wall suggest that none of the options was working. All the infrastructures were already there. All Li had to do was to put his men there. When they were attacking those other passes, Li would be able to detect their movement and prepare for it in Beijing. The outcome of the supposed war would be hard to predict.

Agree with yr assessment. Manchurian were not that great. The Ming Soldier lead by Wu San gui defending Shan Hai Guan were suppose to be the most capable. The Manchu had been battling for many years and could not breach thru.

Manchu army also consist a mix of mongol and han Chinese mercenaries.. With them, they could not be strong enough to stand against Ming.

Originally Posted by vesicles

Yes, but all those passes were also heavily defended.

Yes, Ming fell, but Li Zicheng could've easily taken over all the other defensive positions. I think Li was more capable than we give him credit for. Yes, he only spent 100 days in BEijing and yes he was defeated badly by the Manchurians. But he was caught off-guard. His army was highly disorganized after he entered Beijing. Don't forget that he defeated Ming who was holding Manchurians in check at virtually all defensive positions along with Northern border. He could easily do the same. IF Wu did not open the Shanhai Pass, Manchurians would have had to pick somewhere else, which they have done before with no success (that's why they aligned with the Mongolians). Li would have had enough time to clear his head and clean up his own mess and shore up the defenses elsewhere.

Furthermore, Shanhai Pass is very close to Beijing (only about a couple of hours from Beijing if taking a train). I would guess overnight for a light cavalry?? And there is virtually nothing between the Pass and Beijing city. Once Manchurians entered the Pass, Li Zhcheng had no time to prepare. that was why Li was defeated that fast. If Manchurians picked somewhere else, it would have taken much longer for them to get to Beijing and they would have to fight to get through other fortresses to get to Beijing. Let's face it, Manchurians and Chinese had been fighting for decades before that point. It would not be hard to imagine that all the routes to Beijing had been fortified heavily. Ming dynasty had always been suspicious of the Mongolians. So the entire Northern border was all well-defended. I'm sure the Manchurians and Mongolians had explored all the options during decades of fighting with China. the fact that they were still outside of the great wall suggest that none of the options was working. All the infrastructures were already there. All Li had to do was to put his men there. When they were attacking those other passes, Li would be able to detect their movement and prepare for it in Beijing. The outcome of the supposed war would be hard to predict.

You're right from a strictly tactical point of view. However, the generals defending the norther borders were all loyal to the Ming Emperor. How each of them would have reacted to Li overthrowing Ming is difficult to say.

At the very least, Wu Sangui defected to the Qing for very good reasons. Li stole his favorite concubine, which is a clear indication that Li did not regard Wu very highly. On the other hand, the Qing were promising "Kingship" to Wu and the governance of an entire province should he defect. It is difficult to say that had Wu not betrayed his post, other commanders would not have done so either. In fact, that's probably what Wu was thinking: if he didn't accept the Qing's offer, some other general might accept it, and he would become useless.

Further, there really is no comparison between Ming border troops, and those in the interior. By all account, interior troops were utterly corrupt and led by mostly incompetent commanders. That's part of why Li was so successful in his campaigns. In addition, there is every indication that Li thought his work was done once Beijing was taken. He even proceeded to order the death of his best advisor, Li Yan. THAT is not the sign of a competent general who was ready to take on foreign invaders!

Manchu army also consist a mix of mongol and han Chinese mercenaries.. With them, they could not be strong enough to stand against Ming.

Ehhh... Keep in mind that Qing destroyed the cream of the crop of Ming armies some decades back, and the Ming were reduced to only being able to defend.

Originally Posted by solarz

You're right from a strictly tactical point of view. However, the generals defending the norther borders were all loyal to the Ming Emperor. How each of them would have reacted to Li overthrowing Ming is difficult to say.

I'll have to disagree with that. If you look at the map and see where Manchuria is with respect to Beijing, you'll know that ShanHai Pass is the shortest route to Beijing. Like I said earlier, going through others places may take longer. So this is a classic example of space vs. time. Wu and Manchurians didn't give Li any time to respond when they went through Shanhai Pass and Li was caught completely off-guard. If they used another Pass and even if the generals guarding those passes defected, Li would have enough time to shore up the defense since it would take more time for them to march on Beijing even if unimpeded. A good example would be what Jiang Jieshi did in WWII. If Japanese directly attacked Nanjing without going through the entire northern China, Jiang wouldn't have time to gather forces and Chinese govn't would be destroyed completely. In the end, the Japanese had to spend 2 years fighting through Northern China and this gave Jiang enough time to gather forces in Wuhan and Changsha. And Japanese was held in those places and fought to a stalemate. That was pretty much how China survived WWII. If Manchurians went through other places, the same t hing might have happened.

Originally Posted by solarz

At the very least, Wu Sangui defected to the Qing for very good reasons. Li stole his favorite concubine, which is a clear indication that Li did not regard Wu very highly.

Chen Yuanyuan was not Wu's concubine. She was a high-class prostitute whom Wu visited frequently when he was in Beijing. I think it is simply a myth that Wu defected because of a prostitute. That is a standard excuse in Chinese history to explain why some man become evil. Oh, he was seduced by a girl... A man with Wu's stature could get any woman he wanted. He would not care about a girl no matter how beautiful she might be if she interferes with his political ambition, especially if that girl was a prostitute. We now think of a man-woman relationship in ancient times using our modern values. However, people in ancient times had a different idea on these things. It is common to hear that a man gives his favorite concubine to another man as a gift. The mother of the first emperor of China (Shi Huangdi) used to be a concubine of another man and was given as a gift to Shi Huangdi's father.

So it would not be hard to imagine that Wu would've simply give Chen away if it suited his plans. That's IF Chen was his to give away. The fact is Chen was a prostitute and was never a private property of any single man. Since she was an extremely famous high class prostitute, it was mostly likely that many powerful men had gotten her service. I am sure Wu was perfectly aware of that. If he was not upset about her seeing those other men, why would he be upset about one of Li's generals stealing her?

Originally Posted by solarz

It is difficult to say that had Wu not betrayed his post, other commanders would not have done so either. In fact, that's probably what Wu was thinking: if he didn't accept the Qing's offer, some other general might accept it, and he would become useless.

Yes, I agree. Other generals might defect as well. However like I said earlier, if Manchurians went through other places, it would take much longer to get to Beijing. This would give Li enough time to gather his forces and fight. Space vs. time...

Originally Posted by solarz

Further, there really is no comparison between Ming border troops, and those in the interior. By all account, interior troops were utterly corrupt and led by mostly incompetent commanders. That's part of why Li was so successful in his campaigns.

I think it is most likely that the border troops were much more capable than interior ones. Why? Interior troops were not exposed to serious battles. The most they've seen was some local bandits. Their fighting ability was limited, to say the least. Border units, however, had been fighting many strong and capable enemies for a long time, like the Mongolians, Manchurians and even the Russians. In fact, historically throughout the history of China, the units stationed along the Northern border had always been the most capable units since they had to fight very strong enemies, Huns, West Xia, Mongolians, Liao, Jin, Manchurians, etc. Since the fighting had been almost non-stop, these troops were all battle-hardened and extremely capable. If you notice, while many wars had been fought throughout China, most of the famous generals in Chinese history are those who were stationed on the northern border. This simply cannot be said of the interior troops who were most likely spending their time in the cities bullying harmless civilians. If you look at Chinese history, most of the peasant rebellions started in the interior and in most cases, border units were not in the fight. And in most cases, the leaders of the rebellion would court with the generals on the border to make sure they don't fight for the old govn't. And in most cases, these generals were granted lordship and autonomy in the new govn't in exchange for their promise not to fight for the old govn't. So you can see that these troops were feared by even the lawless rebels.

Originally Posted by solarz

In addition, there is every indication that Li thought his work was done once Beijing was taken. He even proceeded to order the death of his best advisor, Li Yan. THAT is not the sign of a competent general who was ready to take on foreign invaders!

This has been what most of the new emperors did when they won the war. Song's Zhao Kuanyin did it in the most civil manner by asking every single of his generals giving up their positions and troops in exchange for monetary wealth. Of course, the hidden message was "if you don't, I'll kill you." Ming's Zhu Yuanzhang did it in the most brutal fashion by inviting all his generals to a banquet and blowing up the whole palace and killing every one of them. Yet, most of these emperors were seen as highly capable.

Originally Posted by solarz

Ehhh... Keep in mind that Qing destroyed the cream of the crop of Ming armies some decades back, and the Ming were reduced to only being able to defend.

Yes, I agree with you . However, Qing also suffered heavily in the hands of Ming troops. Their first emperor was killed in combat.

Additionally, it has been a strategy used by China ever since the beginning of China that Chinese troops on the northern border mainly defend, not attacking. This is because most of the enemies China had on its northern border were nomads who can disappear into the desert/plain in no time and were nowhere to be found. IT became very costly to send expeditions to clean them out. So ever since Zhou dynasty, Chinese troops on the northern border had been mainly defending their positions, instead of attacking. This was also why the great wall was built (to defend, not attack).