SinoDefence Forum

BLUEJACKET

Had Kubilai Khan's army invaded Japan from the North via Sakhalin & Hokkaido instead of by sea only, with the help of the native Ainus the samurais would have been most probably defeated! Any ideas how that hypotetical war might have proceeded?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamakur...ngol_Invasions

http://www.republicanchina.org/yuan.html

IDonT

Why would Kublai go all the way north when all the ship building infastructure was in Korea and Japan? Going north will compound logistics problems.

The Samurai were defeated because they were out match tactically. Then the divine wind interfered.

adeptitus

There's no need to go the northern route, since Korea was much closer, and easier on the logistics.

There were many factors contributing to Mongolian's loss. Being a land-based military, they had little experience with ocean vessels, and constructed a fleet of Chinese riverboats. The Koreans were quite horrified and told them that they should use ocean-going ships with curved keel, but the Mongols simply ddin't understand or didn't care. So when the typhoon came, *poof*.

The Japanese got smart after the first invasion, and built strong fortifications along potential landing points. These fortitications allowed the numerically and technologically inferior Japanese to defend against a larger and stronger invasion force, until the typhoon came and blew the Mongol fleet away.

Also, the Mongols had to go through Korea to reach Japan, and they took way too long to conquer Korea. Their first 6 major campaigns lasted almsot 30 years (1231-1259), and the final resistance didn't end until the Sambyeolcho rebellion was put down around 1271-1273.

This means that the invasion of Japan was much-delayed, and the Japanese had plenty of warning to fortify Kyushu. Had the Mongols been able to invade earlier, the first Battle of Hakata Bay would've prolly turned into a complete Japanese rout, making the second invasion unncessary.

BLUEJACKET

The area opposite Sakhalin was under Mongol control, and they could have supplied the army easily by the Amur river & across the strait; and with the Ainus support (who were at war with the Japanese for centuries) there could be littlle need for logistics. Actually, they could come both from the North via Hokkaido and from the Korean peninsula. I'm sure that some samurai clans would have switched sides once they realized how powerful the Mongols are!

crobato

The Samurai were silly. They went forward to the middle of the battlefield to challenge the Mongol leaders for a contest of honor, announcing their proud ancestry at the same time.

The Mongols laughed and shot them with arrows.

BLUEJACKET

Had they used Sakhalin & Hokkaido as launching pads there would 've been no need for so many ships of the wrong kind!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Invasions_of_Japan

The Koreans proved troublesome allies in the invasion of Japan, and in my opinion the Ainus would have been far better choice as guides and auxiliaries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Korea

The samurais were defeated by the Chinese in Korea later, during Imjin War of 1592-1598

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes...281592-1598%29

and Japanese pirates (who were armed similarly as samurais) by the Shaolin monks armed with staffs on China's coast.
http://www.speaking.com/speakers/shao-linkungfu.html
http://www.karate.org.yu/articles/legacy_of_shaolin.htm

http://www.winglungkungfu.com/miami/shaolin.htm

http://www.shaolinarts.com/pages/history.html

So, in my opinion, if the later samurais with their refined weapons & tactics lost battles in Korea and China, their ancestors would have been defeated in Japan itself had the Mongols and their allies invaded from more than one direction.