View Poll Results: China's most glourious military in dynasties

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  • Warring states

    8 5.67%
  • Qin dynasty

    22 15.60%
  • Tang dynasty

    45 31.91%
  • Song dynasty

    4 2.84%
  • Ming dynasty

    16 11.35%
  • Qing dynasty

    7 4.96%
  • Nationalist China

    3 2.13%
  • People's republic of China

    36 25.53%
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Chinas best dynastic military?

This is a discussion on Chinas best dynastic military? within the Military History forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice I do not understand why anyone voted for Tang. The Tang did little to expand China's ...

  1. #46
    mindreader is offline New Member
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    Re: Chinas best dynastic military?

    Quote Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
    I do not understand why anyone voted for Tang. The Tang did little to expand China's borders. Furthermore, the Tang didn't vastly improve China's wealth or improve China intellectually or scientifically. The Song which followed the Tang was a much stronger dynasty, and did much to defeat barbarian tribes and expand Chinese territory before being overwhelmed by the Turks themselves.
    I am sure you are joking. Too see how far the Tang Dynasty expanded, look up the Battle of Talas. The Song Dynasty can't hold the Li family's collective jockstraps. And no, the Tang armies were far from weak. Just ask the Japanese for the "lessons" they learnt.

    Then there are other people saying that "power projection" through the Ming fleets is a sign of the greatest dynasty. That is also a ridiculous qualifier. When comparing history, one needs to look at things relative to other powers of the time. It is asinine to say the Ming Dynasty could conquor the world where the Qin couldn't. Put simply, there is a 1600 year technology gap. If one day people in giant space ships are fighting on Mars, is the Ming Dynasty less impressive then?

    Also, I can't believe how anybody in their right mind could vote the Qing Dynasty as the best, especially to do so based simply on looking at maps. There is a reason the Qing Dynasty is considered in China, almost without question, as the worst dynasty ever.

    Huang Taji was OK. Kangxi was great. It was all downhill from there. If not for the so called Ten Great Campaigns, Qianlong would be looked upon as a moron (as he should be).

    For those that says corruption got especially bad during Cixi, they've obviously never heard of He Shen, who's wealth is mentioned as a percentage of the world's total wealth. When he was finally forced to suicide and his property seized, his wealth exceeded 10 to 15 years worth of the Qing Dynasty's total income. And he is just the tip of the iceberg. If we are to include other corrupt officials, well...

    But by far the greatest setback they did to China was technologically. By the way, yes they did abandon firearms. As I've said in another thread, if not for Kangxi's obsession with cannons, the Opium War would have been even uglier than it was.

  2. #47
    Edinburgher is offline New Member
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    Re: Chinas best dynastic military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liberator View Post
    Remember. the Qing troops did not get enough food, therefore they are slow, weak, fragile on the battlefield. Most of the money from the goverment had been stolen by lots of bad goverment officials's pockets.
    Actually, i hate Qing, cos the rulers and kings of Qing are originally from other countries,(close to Russia and North China). they are very cruel *******, they ruined the China and dragged China into darkness, before Qing, China's military are advanced, technical, economic and agriculcure are ranged top 3 in the world, during Qing's ruling, China became very weak... the most shame for Qing;s rulers are they forced Chinese to change their hair style and cloth style. so Chinese in Qing 's dressing are ugly...
    Last edited by sumdud; 01-12-2007 at 08:53 PM.

  3. #48
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    sumdud is offline Senior Member
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    Re: Chinas best dynastic military?

    First, welcome to The Forum.
    I see that you are from Edinburgh. Go ahead and enjoy yourself in the Club room.

    But I hope you understand that this is a strict forum and we do not allow bashing of any kind, including the Manchus. We do have Manchu members onboard. It does not help either when the information is biased/connected with only one kind.

    I want Asia on my front porch and America as my backyard.
    Disclaimer: By America, I meant the Continent. And yes, I know Asian homes have neither a backyard nor a porch in the American sense.

  4. #49
    kunmingren's Avatar
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    Re: Chinas best dynastic military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edinburgher View Post
    Actually, i hate Qing, cos the rulers and kings of Qing are originally from other countries,(close to Russia and North China). they are very cruel *******, they ruined the China and dragged China into darkness, before Qing, China's military are advanced, technical, economic and agriculcure are ranged top 3 in the world, during Qing's ruling, China became very weak... the most shame for Qing;s rulers are they forced Chinese to change their hair style and cloth style. so Chinese in Qing 's dressing are ugly...
    i would completely disagree with your thinking, Qing werent any worse than any other dynasty, they didn't 'ruin' china, its just that the rest of the world caught up with China because there wasnt any inovation since Song Dynasty ended. If anything, the Ming dynasty was the most abysmal ruling family in Chinese history. Most notoriously decadent or sadistic or even illiterate emperors are from that dynasty.

  5. #50
    Spike is offline Banned Idiot
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    Re: Chinas best dynastic military?

    The Tang period was one of the most glorious in Chinese history; it was a marvel of culture, diplomacy, and military conquest. The early Tang emperors built strong relationships with certain nomadic tribes and cleverly exploited divisions among their enemies from without. Using their technological superiority, the Tang armies expanded into Vietnam, Manchuria, and the Tarim Basin up to the Pamirs and the Talas River (Remarkably Korea stalemated the Tang but accepted tributary status). Culturally the Tang knew no rivals, porcelain was perfected during the Tang, and printing was invented. Some of the greatest poets in Chinese history were from the Tang, ie. Du Fu and Li Bai. Chang'an boasted 2 million inhabitants from all over the world: Arabs, Jews, Persians, Koreans, Japanese, etc. Korea, Japan, and Vietnam were heavily influenced by Tang China and began to borrow heavily from Chinese culture.

    The Song Dynasty is often seen as 'weak' by Chinese because it fell to the Mongols, resulting in the poorly run and discriminatory Yuan dynasty. However, the Song managed to hold out for 40 years against the Mongols who were aided by Chinese engineers and military technicians. In fact, Genghis Khan first sent his Golden Horde west, overrunning all of Russia before they turned back in Hungary with the Great Khan's death. Despite being the closest in proximity to the Mongolian homelands the Song were probably one of the more successful holdouts to Mongol dominance, not able to exploit bad sea weather like the Japanese and Javanese, or extreme distances like the Mamluks.

  6. #51
    Ryz05 is offline Member
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    Re: Chinas best dynastic military?

    I choose the PRC because of their destructive potential (they have nukes). Also, China has never been so secure along its borders, as opposed to the early days when there were threats from the North (Mongols and Huns). Otherwise I would've chosen Qin because of the unification and the impact the period had on military ideology.

  7. #52
    Kilo636 is offline Banned Idiot
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    Re: Chinas best dynastic military?

    Quote Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice View Post
    The Yuan dynasty shouldn't count because they were Mongol invaders. The Qing dynasty should count because the Manchus are considered Chinese. Also, the Manchus were accepted by the Chinese as rulers while the Mongols were not. That is why the Yuan fell after only 80 years.

    So u are saying those mongols in Inner mongolia of China considered as invader and foreigner? They are too the citizen of PRC. We shall consider Yuan dynasty as an official dynasty of China.. Mongol too is still part of the history of China.. Mongolia was even until Qing rule.

    Yuan by my point is the most powerful and devastating army force at that time. Conquer the most vast amount of land.

  8. #53
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    Re: Chinas best dynastic military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilo636 View Post
    So u are saying those mongols in Inner mongolia of China considered as invader and foreigner? They are too the citizen of PRC. We shall consider Yuan dynasty as an official dynasty of China.. Mongol too is still part of the history of China.. Mongolia was even until Qing rule.

    Yuan by my point is the most powerful and devastating army force at that time. Conquer the most vast amount of land.
    I dont agree with Yuan dynasty being Chinese, i mean they only established for barely 80 years, and they were never party of Chinese culture. Right now in China, they are included as Chinese, this is done for political reason of trying to dissuade sepretism (though, i dont think there are very much sepretism talk in Mongolia).

    if we follow your logic, Korea was also ruled by Kublai, doesnt that say the most power period of Korean history was during the Mongol Rule? And this can be said about Russia, Iran, and Vietnam.

  9. #54
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    Re: Chinas best dynastic military?

    For me I like the Ming because of the costumes, armor, and their ingenious use of gunpowder. They managed to beat the Mongols in their own game---beat cavalry with gunpowder-- and destroyed them in their homeland. And they certainly meant business, with 3400 cannons just along the Great Wall.

    I also like the Three Kingdoms period, partly because of the literature, myth, heroes, characters, legends, and of course, the video games behind it. But this is probably the golden age of Chinese cavalry. Mass production of the stirrup shortly began before the fall of the Han, conveniently in time to be used in the Three Kingdom wars. Heavy cavalry would be developed, and they would last until the Tang, whose Turkish/Middle Eastern influences reverted cavalry back to being light.

  10. #55
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    Re: Chinas best dynastic military?

    Quote Originally Posted by rommel View Post
    well, I choose Qin because of the Reunification, and I found this admirable that the Qin beat every country one after each other
    you don not know china. qing dynastry is not chinese history.qing is built by tungus.tungus is not chinese native nations.our china have many nations .but mongolia nation or manchu nation are not chinese native nations.so it is nonsensical to take about qing dynastry.our china is broken up inqing dynastory.that history is very grieved.if you want to know .you can read a great book<south ming history>《南明史》。

    ***MOD EDIT: no advertizement of other forums, exscpesially not ones with controversial material*********
    Last edited by Gollevainen; 02-26-2007 at 08:32 AM.

  11. #56
    kunmingren's Avatar
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    Re: Chinas best dynastic military?

    Quote Originally Posted by han jade sword View Post
    you don not know china. qing dynastry is not chinese history.qing is built by tungus.tungus is not chinese native nations.our china have many nations .but mongolia nation or manchu nation are not chinese native nations.so it is nonsensical to take about qing dynastry.our china is broken up inqing dynastory.that history is very grieved.if you want to know .you can read a great book<south ming history>《南明史》。or enter this forum :www.hanminzu.com 汉网han nation web.
    rommel said qin, not qing. Qin was between 221 and 206 BC, its 1800 years before the qing dynasty which you dont think are chinese.

    and about the hanminzu.com, i paid a visit to the site, some of its content is border line racist. such as a post about the inminent danger of minority taking power from han people and some how persecute the han.

  12. #57
    A Pirate is offline New Member
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    Re: Chinas best dynastic military?

    BTW,Where's Han Dyansty?

  13. #58
    goldenpanda is offline Banned Idiot
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    Re: Chinas best dynastic military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liberator View Post
    If the STUPID QIng emperor at late Qing cared about the country, then China would be as strong as the Europeans...
    The Qing emperors in late Qing did nothing but eat, laugh, play.
    Man when will Chinese advance from naive view of our own history? We just blame everything on bad people. Does that solve any problems? All the bad people came from our population. Are we going to keep producing bad people then blame them forever?

    It's not just this or that emperor. Chinese military thinking stopped evolving at "let's unify the country keep everyone from revolts". We didn't have a systematic way to describe knowledge and then to accumulate progress. It was mentioned Qing forts were not designed to maximize fields of fire. Did we have even *the concept* so we could *think* about maximizing it? All the centuries of intellectual work, what have they given us, besides nice poems about wine and women? Chinese talk about the need to learn science, but I wonder if we really know what is science.

    When will Chinese value the need to see the world, then *try to describe it*?


    ***

    yeah, I was actually going to vote for Han. Besides inventing the imperial system, the Han were the last time that Chinese could mobilize just about every man in the country on a foreign campaign.
    Last edited by goldenpanda; 02-28-2007 at 07:51 AM.

  14. #59
    goldenpanda is offline Banned Idiot
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    Re: Chinas best dynastic military?

    Quote Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice View Post
    In my opinion, it was the Ming. Why? Because only during the Ming dynasty did China have to capabilities to project power across the world.
    Ming navy...hugely overrated. They didn't have reliable navigation. Didn't have a colonial mentality. Just went around parading to natives. Did not even survive as an institution within the Ming military system.

    Go with the Han, who created an imperial system never seen in the world, which lasted two thousands years.

  15. #60
    zachjeli is offline Banned Idiot
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    Re: Chinas best dynastic military?

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenpanda View Post
    Ming navy...hugely overrated. They didn't have reliable navigation. Didn't have a colonial mentality. Just went around parading to natives. Did not even survive as an institution within the Ming military system.

    Go with the Han, who created an imperial system never seen in the world, which lasted two thousands years.
    how come it is not the PRC, since they are going to be a superpower.

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