This is a discussion on Chinas best dynastic military? within the Military History forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice I do not understand why anyone voted for Tang. The Tang did little to expand China's ...
I am sure you are joking. Too see how far the Tang Dynasty expanded, look up the Battle of Talas. The Song Dynasty can't hold the Li family's collective jockstraps. And no, the Tang armies were far from weak. Just ask the Japanese for the "lessons" they learnt.Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
Then there are other people saying that "power projection" through the Ming fleets is a sign of the greatest dynasty. That is also a ridiculous qualifier. When comparing history, one needs to look at things relative to other powers of the time. It is asinine to say the Ming Dynasty could conquor the world where the Qin couldn't. Put simply, there is a 1600 year technology gap. If one day people in giant space ships are fighting on Mars, is the Ming Dynasty less impressive then?
Also, I can't believe how anybody in their right mind could vote the Qing Dynasty as the best, especially to do so based simply on looking at maps. There is a reason the Qing Dynasty is considered in China, almost without question, as the worst dynasty ever.
Huang Taji was OK. Kangxi was great. It was all downhill from there. If not for the so called Ten Great Campaigns, Qianlong would be looked upon as a moron (as he should be).
For those that says corruption got especially bad during Cixi, they've obviously never heard of He Shen, who's wealth is mentioned as a percentage of the world's total wealth. When he was finally forced to suicide and his property seized, his wealth exceeded 10 to 15 years worth of the Qing Dynasty's total income. And he is just the tip of the iceberg. If we are to include other corrupt officials, well...
But by far the greatest setback they did to China was technologically. By the way, yes they did abandon firearms. As I've said in another thread, if not for Kangxi's obsession with cannons, the Opium War would have been even uglier than it was.
Last edited by sumdud; 01-12-2007 at 08:53 PM.
First, welcome to The Forum.
I see that you are from Edinburgh. Go ahead and enjoy yourself in the Club room.
But I hope you understand that this is a strict forum and we do not allow bashing of any kind, including the Manchus. We do have Manchu members onboard. It does not help either when the information is biased/connected with only one kind.
I want Asia on my front porch and America as my backyard.
Disclaimer: By America, I meant the Continent. And yes, I know Asian homes have neither a backyard nor a porch in the American sense.
The Tang period was one of the most glorious in Chinese history; it was a marvel of culture, diplomacy, and military conquest. The early Tang emperors built strong relationships with certain nomadic tribes and cleverly exploited divisions among their enemies from without. Using their technological superiority, the Tang armies expanded into Vietnam, Manchuria, and the Tarim Basin up to the Pamirs and the Talas River (Remarkably Korea stalemated the Tang but accepted tributary status). Culturally the Tang knew no rivals, porcelain was perfected during the Tang, and printing was invented. Some of the greatest poets in Chinese history were from the Tang, ie. Du Fu and Li Bai. Chang'an boasted 2 million inhabitants from all over the world: Arabs, Jews, Persians, Koreans, Japanese, etc. Korea, Japan, and Vietnam were heavily influenced by Tang China and began to borrow heavily from Chinese culture.
The Song Dynasty is often seen as 'weak' by Chinese because it fell to the Mongols, resulting in the poorly run and discriminatory Yuan dynasty. However, the Song managed to hold out for 40 years against the Mongols who were aided by Chinese engineers and military technicians. In fact, Genghis Khan first sent his Golden Horde west, overrunning all of Russia before they turned back in Hungary with the Great Khan's death. Despite being the closest in proximity to the Mongolian homelands the Song were probably one of the more successful holdouts to Mongol dominance, not able to exploit bad sea weather like the Japanese and Javanese, or extreme distances like the Mamluks.
I choose the PRC because of their destructive potential (they have nukes). Also, China has never been so secure along its borders, as opposed to the early days when there were threats from the North (Mongols and Huns). Otherwise I would've chosen Qin because of the unification and the impact the period had on military ideology.
So u are saying those mongols in Inner mongolia of China considered as invader and foreigner? They are too the citizen of PRC. We shall consider Yuan dynasty as an official dynasty of China.. Mongol too is still part of the history of China.. Mongolia was even until Qing rule.
Yuan by my point is the most powerful and devastating army force at that time. Conquer the most vast amount of land.
if we follow your logic, Korea was also ruled by Kublai, doesnt that say the most power period of Korean history was during the Mongol Rule? And this can be said about Russia, Iran, and Vietnam.
For me I like the Ming because of the costumes, armor, and their ingenious use of gunpowder. They managed to beat the Mongols in their own game---beat cavalry with gunpowder-- and destroyed them in their homeland. And they certainly meant business, with 3400 cannons just along the Great Wall.
I also like the Three Kingdoms period, partly because of the literature, myth, heroes, characters, legends, and of course, the video games behind it. But this is probably the golden age of Chinese cavalry. Mass production of the stirrup shortly began before the fall of the Han, conveniently in time to be used in the Three Kingdom wars. Heavy cavalry would be developed, and they would last until the Tang, whose Turkish/Middle Eastern influences reverted cavalry back to being light.
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Last edited by Gollevainen; 02-26-2007 at 08:32 AM.
and about the hanminzu.com, i paid a visit to the site, some of its content is border line racist. such as a post about the inminent danger of minority taking power from han people and some how persecute the han.
BTW,Where's Han Dyansty?
It's not just this or that emperor. Chinese military thinking stopped evolving at "let's unify the country keep everyone from revolts". We didn't have a systematic way to describe knowledge and then to accumulate progress. It was mentioned Qing forts were not designed to maximize fields of fire. Did we have even *the concept* so we could *think* about maximizing it? All the centuries of intellectual work, what have they given us, besides nice poems about wine and women? Chinese talk about the need to learn science, but I wonder if we really know what is science.
When will Chinese value the need to see the world, then *try to describe it*?
yeah, I was actually going to vote for Han. Besides inventing the imperial system, the Han were the last time that Chinese could mobilize just about every man in the country on a foreign campaign.
Last edited by goldenpanda; 02-28-2007 at 07:51 AM.
Go with the Han, who created an imperial system never seen in the world, which lasted two thousands years.