Altan Khan and the Ming Dynasty

Had the Ming built a solid and long term relationship with the Dayanid
dynasty of Altan, the Manchus would never have been able to prevail and conquer China. First and foremost the formidable Mongol cavalry
would serve and protect the Ming dynasty.

He wasn't the complete ruler of the Mongols. Another Mongol leader actually raided China during the same time and was repulsed. He was Jasaghtu Khan, who was repulsed by Qi Jiquang, already a hero for cleaning up the wokou Japanese pirates.

The Mongols allied themselves willingly to Nurhachi? Not. Like the Koreans, Nurhachi defeated the Mongols in a series of bloody battles, before integrating both into his armies. Later the Qing Dynasty sent armies into the Mongol and Turkish proper, decimating both peoples into the marginal state they are today. For that, Mongol and Turks deeply hated the Manchus. After the Manchus fell in 1911, Mongol and Turkish minorities were out to slit the necks of anyone who remotely looked like a Manchu (bald wearing a pony tail), and Manchu hairstyles quickly disappeared if you don't want your throat slit.

Hi Crobato
Sorry to say, but several things are wrong here:
1. Jasagtu Khan preceded Altan
2. Nurgaci never fought the Mongols. As a matter of fact, one of his wives
was the daughter of the Keerqin (Horqin in mongolian) chief. The Keerqin
was the principal tribe near Jilin and Liaoning, (present day Tongliao, in Inner Mongolia). The Keerqin were one of the biggest and most powerful tribes of the Mongols. With the Keerqin alliance, the Kharacin(Yungshyiebu or Uriangkha),
the Tumaat, Sonid, Chahar, and Ordos followed. Altan, by the way was a
Tumaat. Nurgaci cunningly also used an adaptation of the Mongol script
to be the medium of oral and written communication among the Manchus.
After Altan's death, the Mongol tribes of Inner and Outer Mongolia were hopelessy divided, the Outer Mongolian Khalkha ( Halh in mongolian) was at war with the western Oirad tribe. The Inner Mongolian tribes were also
at war with each other. Nurhaci also got hold of the seal of the last Mongol
Yuan emperor, Toghon Timur. He also opened his borders to the Mongols
and made the Mongols part of the Manchu family. With a power vaccum
the Mongols looked up to Nurgaci as the new steppe hero and flocked to
his banners. Without Mongol support, he would never been able to
defeat the Ming army sent against him later, he would also never been
able to conquer southern Liaoning and capture Shenyang.
r's
Clive

That's not true. Huang Taiji is the one who got the seal of the Yuan Emperor and he got that because Ejai Khan surrendered to him after being militarily defeated. By then, the Mongols were a spent force. Ejai Khan's father, Ligden, was the last of the truly powerful Khans, and many Mongols betrayed him by allying themselves with the Manchu in the war against the Chakhar Touman.

1. Regarding who got the seal, this is up for grabs, some books quoted
Hongtaiji, some Nurgaci. Need more research here.
2. There was no war or battle between the Manchus and Mongols, the Mongols were looking for a new leader after Altan Khan's death, and since
the Ming just left things the way there were and didn't take the initiative,
Nurgaci stepped into the picture and did the ff:
a. opened all borders of Manchuria to mongol traders
b. integrated manchus and mongols, he himself took Keerqin, Chahar,
and Khalkha wives. Henced the Manchus and Mongols became bound by
blood.
c. Gave the Mongols a position parallel with the Manchus in their ruling
class above all others.
d. Had a clear cut vision of conquering the Ming
Everyone wants the best deal, this is universal to all races, Nurgaci,
like Chinggis before him, offered the best deal, the Ming offered lesser
deal, so everyone will go for the best deal.
I enjoy this conversation with you, as we speak, I learn a lot. I am not
a historian per se, but history is one of my hobbies, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
thanks and brgds
Clive

1. Regarding who got the seal, this is up for grabs, some books quoted
Hongtaiji, some Nurgaci. Need more research here.

It was Hong Taiji.

2. There was no war or battle between the Manchus and Mongols, the Mongols were looking for a new leader after Altan Khan's death, and since
the Ming just left things the way there were and didn't take the initiative,
Nurgaci stepped into the picture and did the ff:

Sorry but that is not true. Manchu tried to obliterate Charkhar Touman, which was the main dominant Touman during that time and whose leader still holds the Yuan Emperor seal. The other Mongols allied themselves with Hong Taiji because of their disunity and self interest.

Historically, Chingghiz Khan annihilated the Jin Dynasty, founded by the Jurchens, which is what the Manchus were before they renamed themselves Manchu by Hong Taiji.

a. opened all borders of Manchuria to mongol traders
b. integrated manchus and mongols, he himself took Keerqin, Chahar,
and Khalkha wives. Henced the Manchus and Mongols became bound by
blood.

And for what reason did the Qing launched many punitive expeditions to Mongolia, and why did Mongolians join rebellions against the Qing?

Manchu didn't exactly treat Mongolians well, along with Tibetans, and prosecuted Tibetan Buddism, which the Mongolians also practice.

Furthermore, both Manchu and Mongol had their hands full further west, against Islamic Turkish tribes like the Uighyur and Han Moslem groups like the Hui.

Ming fell because their one excellent general that had consistently defeated both Nurhachi and Hong Taiji got executed by incompetent emperor and backstabbing eunuchs. At the same time, the Ming were also facing a peasant revolt, and a major Ming army turned traitor and allied themselves with the Manchu to defeat this revolt.

http://www.gurupedia.com/q/qi/qing_dynasty.htm

After years of civil unrest, the Ming capital Beijing was sacked by a coalition of rebel forces led by Li Zicheng. The Ming dynasty officially came to an end when the last Ming emperor committed suicide by hanging himself on a tree on the hill overlooking the Forbidden City. After taking Beijing in April 1644, Li Zicheng led an army of 60,000 strong to confront Wu Sangui, the general commanding the Ming's 100,000 strong garrison stationed at Shanhaiguan (山海关). Shanhaiguan is the pivotal northeastern pass of the Great Wall of China located fify miles northeast of Beijing and for years its defenses were what kept the Manchus at bay and out of China. Wu caught between two enemies decided to cast his lots with the Manchus and made an alliance with Dorgon, regent to the then six-year old Shunzhi, son of Hong Taiji who had passed away the year before.

Together the two armies met Li Zicheng's rebel forces in battle on May 27, 1644. Even though the rebel forces were routed, Wu's army was so weakened by the day's fighting that he had no choice but to join the Manchus forces as they captured Beijing on June 6 and began their conquest of the whole of China. The process took another seventeen years of battling Ming loyalists, pretenders and rebels. The last Ming pretender Prince Gui sort refuge in Burma but was turned over to a Qing expeditionary force headed by Wu Sangui who had him brought back to Yunnan province and executed in early 1662.

Hi Crobato
Thanks for your input, regarding the lack of conflict between Nurgaci
and the mongols, pls read Dr. Crosley's book on the Manchu.
prof Grousset of Empire of the Steppes also did not mention any conflict.
Anyway, let us continue discussing, I am getting an excellent history class
from you.
r's
Clive

Maybe you should check not Nurhachi, but the Qing Dynasty itself, and what it did with the Mongols, Remember the territories the Qing took to expand to the greatest extent didn't belong to the Russians, but to the Mongols during that period.

What is not very well documented is the wars the Mongols, being Tibetan Buddists, and that of Altaic Turkish tribes, like the Uighyur, which has gone Islamic. The Uighyurs were once of the tribes Chingghiz Khan incorporated and united with his horde when he began his conquest. Buddism and Islam don't seem to get very well together.

Hi Crobato
The only conflict were with the ff , way after Nurgaci:
1. Ligdan Khan of Chahar
2. Amursana of the Khalkhas
3. Galdan of the Oirads
r's
Clive