SinoDefence Forum

Raptoreyes · 06-16-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by pla101prc

going in from southwest, from india, he'll have to climb some of the highest mountains in the world, and travel across the tibet plateau...which means a huge chunk of his men wont make it and/or they get lost and starve to death,even if the army does survive there will be no logistics available for them. going in from afghanistan means they'll have to walk through the desert of Xinjiang and then Qinghai, which means a huge chunk of his men wont make it and/or they get lost and starve to death,even if the army does survive there will be no logistics available for them. even if they get through those they'll be fighting in Sichuan, which means they'll be fighting in mountains, alexander's phalanx and calvary will be useless...on top of that he is fighting against roughly a million men. the only good thing about this is that if he makes it through all those terrains, he is pretty close to Qin capital because back then Qin capital is in what is now Xi An. which is pretty close to those moutain areas in Sichuan. so if i knew China and i was alexander's advisor i'll likely recommend against invading China...though he'll prolly cut my head off and the western historians later on will describe me as a coward...so actually i'll not tell him everything and laugh when his army gets owned lol.

A mountain range and two desserts. No wonder Alexander tried for India first. One could not ask for terrain more favorable to the defense then about a thousand miles of trackless dessert and mountains. Well you know what they say... good fences make good neighbors. Its a wonder enough cultural transmission happened between the Hellenistic world and China to see Greek style statues with Chinese features. I guess artists and merchants can be more bold then warriors under the right conditions a map or two of a less desolate wrote through the merciless wilderness. Likely as not the cultural transmission of Greek artistic styles even briefly to China took place via India.

crobato · 06-17-2009

Alexander if he has to go through the deserts in the northwest, will have to deal with proto-Hun tribes which will eat them alive.

pla101prc · 06-17-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by crobato

Alexander if he has to go through the deserts in the northwest, will have to deal with proto-Hun tribes which will eat them alive.

yes if he has to go through the "alleyway" of the northwest, which is modern day Xinjiang he'll be running right into Xiongni territory. but assume that he does not, he'll be trying to do what hannibal did.

handifei880210 · 06-17-2009

some relic of roman troops were found in GanSu province, China. these soldiers fled to China after defeated by Parthian troops. most important, this small troop fight with Han dynasty's army, they were entangled into the Huns and Han dynasty's conflict. i'm wondering, no Alexander's soldiers fled to China when they camp in India?

getready · 06-18-2009

i remember reading a few good threads about this hypothetical confrontation a few yrs back in chinahistoryforum.com, but iirc, the discussion there was whether Alexander could theorectically invade china.

let me see if i can still locate that thread.

--------------------------------------------
i think i found it

http://chinahistoryforum.com/lofiver...p/t9108-0.html

basically according to the resident expert Borjigin Ayurbarwada (formerly warhead) whom i respect greatly as a knowledgeable poster, it would be strategically impossible for Alexander to invade china.

however since this thread is not about Alexander and his army marching towards china, for the sake of discussion, i believe, unlike in the chf thread, we can ignore the need for a secure base of operation and the logistical impossibility of his army reaching china.

Spike · 06-21-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mightypeon

Personally, I believe that the chinese numbers may be a fair bit inflated.
I do not see a difference between contemporary European chronologists claiming that "one Million Persians attacked Greece" and Chinese Historians claiming "450.000 Zhou troops were killed in one battle".
I mean, the Chinese Historians is propably less far off (because at least the manpower was available, the logistics? URGHHH, you are talking about supplying armies larger than the Grande Armee in sometimes not healthy terrain with Iron Age technology! A seemingly impossible feat imho).

I believe the PVA during the Korean war was supplied mostly by animals and porters transporting supplies in baskets on foot, in the winter (with Siberian winds). Communications were done with bugles, whistles, gongs, and runners. There was the odd radio and truck but they were vastly insufficient. Nevertheless, it's not impossible to think that Chinese states were able to support large armies on their home territories.

Mightypeon · 06-25-2009

I think that you significantly underestimate the PVAs logistic abilities if you compare them with the logistic abilities of the Qin dynasty, which propably were quite formidable too.

Secondly, lands did, on average, get richer in the last 2000 years.
Supplying 200K troops in modern day Korea would be significantly easier than supplying 200K troop in Korea 2000 years ago.

zraver · 07-10-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice

It was only later on, after the invention of the stirrup did heavy cavalry forces make their appearance.

Incorrect, the Macedonian Companions were lancers including some who used the 18' Sarrissa pike and they did it without stirrups. The shock of being hit with shock cavalry (lancers) and later ongoing Hellenic heavy cavalry is directly responsible for the development of the Parthian Cataphract.

FriedRiceNSpice · 07-11-2009

Quote:

Incorrect, the Macedonian Companions were lancers including some who used the 18' Sarrissa pike and they did it without stirrups. The shock of being hit with shock cavalry (lancers) and later ongoing Hellenic heavy cavalry is directly responsible for the development of the Parthian Cataphract.

No, Macedonian Companions did not charge into battle. The only reason they had to use such long spears is to maintain distance between them and enemy infantry in order to compensate for their inability to charge into enemy infantry formations. Charging with a 18' pike would dismount the rider: the Companions only charged to close the distance between enemy forces so that they could avoid fire from enemy skirmishers and missile troops. Furthermore the Companions were not noted for being heavily armored.

zraver · 07-11-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice

No, Macedonian Companions did not charge into battle. The only reason they had to use such long spears is to maintain distance between them and enemy infantry in order to compensate for their inability to charge into enemy infantry formations.

Source? because your claim would make no sense given what we know of the formations they used- the wedge and diamond/rhomboid. If they suddenly stopped the bulk of the formation would be out of contact while only an extremely small part of the formation could clumsily stab at the superior numbers and more mobile infantry.

Period tomb art

http://www.ancientbattles.com/Macedo...an_cavalry.jpg

and a Roman Mosiac

http://www.ancientbattles.com/Macedo...ston_large.jpg

Both clearly show the lance being used to deliver a charge.

The Alexander sarcophagus shows much the same. while it would have been suicide to charge a group of organized hoplites, the same cannot be said of light infantry and tribesmen.

Quote:

Charging with a 18' pike would dismount the rider:

Source?

Quote:

the Companions only charged to close the distance between enemy forces so that they could avoid fire from enemy skirmishers and missile troops.

The evidence does not support that claim.

Quote:

Furthermore the Companions were not noted for being heavily armored.

100% disagree, while they had to provide their own armor so the amount of protection could vary, the Macedonian companions did not use shields and instead relied on body armor. From 60 pound plus Bronze to laminate styles like the Linothorax all of which were quite capable of good protection. For example, Alexander's personal armor stopped an arrow that would have otherwise killed him from a recurve horn bow.

ravenshield936 · 07-11-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by vesicles

I don't think anyone doubts that Alexander was awesome. But the question is who was better, Qin or Alexander. Napoleon was also awesome until he met the russians.

Also, who says Qin's army didn't have any of the virtues you mentioned? You have to know that by the time Qin took the power, China had been in massive and non-stop civil war for almost 400 years. What make you think that that many years of fighting would not produce skilled and experienced commanders, soldiers and advanced tactics? For people who came up with "The arts of war" (actually the bood came out a couple hundred years before Qin united China), they got to know what they were doing. If anything, I would think Qin's army would be much more experienced, given collected wisdom and experience coming out of the entire Warring States period.

not only so, but also anyone familiar with ancient chinese history will know how organized and systematic the chinese are since the ancient times. tribes dont exist after shang dynasty

and of course, by spring and autumn and warring states, written works, teachings, are all already existent in china, teaching morals and deep thoughts and social values.

lu buwei will pay high prices for hiring advisors, and even more if they detect a spelling error in the works. lu's spring and autumn, a classic literature of ancient china, represents the early amazing of learning and education in ancient china

and of course, during spring and autumn are where many strategists and amazing talents lived. their achievements separate them from the ordinary, even in today's world due to talents. many chiense idioms came from this era too

ravenshield936 · 07-11-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by pla101prc

nope, intelligence cant be your reference because he was fighting darius III,the dude would run away from battle. maybe if it was hannibal,alexander would have been annihilated. you have to balance your field a knowledge a lil bit, the Qin army, have fought and conquered seven different states, they have not just one talented military leader, by the end of it they had something like three or four...ppl like Li Xin, Wang Jian, and a little bit earlier Bai Qi who was known for battle of Changping. so talent isnt a sufficient reason here.

and even post qin, there were so many other talents of pen and sword. xiang yu is a very famous example of a mighty warlord, while liu bang for his intelligence.
move ahead and into three kingdoms, they're full of them. the classic cao cao, zhugeliang, sun jian, etc, are examples

xiangyu's famous battles included when he won liu bang's army of 200,000 (or 600,000)with his 35,000, and when him and his cavalry of 28 broke through the ambush by over 200 without losing a single man.

xiangyu aint overlord of western chu for nothing

they dont have to be all-rounded, as in fact being a specialist in one field beats an rounded of mediocracy. but if u have to say, cao cao will be a classic example of both.

ravenshield936 · 07-11-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by pla101prc

i have no english sources sorry. here is a general overview of the three generals

Bai Qi: there are four greatest generals during the warring states, one of them is Bai Qi. this guy is mad talented and is known for defeating Zhao's 450000 strong army,killing everyone but 200 youngest soldiers.

Li Xin: descendent of one of the four greatest generals Li Xin. known for conquering the state of Han (i think). but boasted about conquering Chu with only 200000 men and failed. guess he was a bit too young back then

Wang Jian: the greatest general in the late warring state period. conquering the second (Qi) and third (Chu) strongest states of the seven warring states (Qin is the strongest)

apart from these Qin also has other very competent commanders like Zhanghan. Alexander should have competent generals with him as well but the problem is since he is always in control,none of his generals would have a chance to independently command an army. and as you can see, as soon as Alex died, there was nothing there to hold his empire together, so there is no way that Macedon can compare to Qin in terms of talents. as i have said, if we are talkin about same of everything in a computer simulated battle, then i dont know, but if we are talkin an invasion upon Qin or we are factoring numbers into this, then Qin wins with ease.

another thing would be that the han's cultural pride and spirit always push the aggressor back out. always. the mongolians, the manchus, whatever

maozedong · 07-11-2009

few years ago, I have watch a DVD <Resurrection of the Legion>,talk about real Qin army,Archaeologists have discovered the Qin terracotta warriors and horses, to study them, and ultimately to know the integrity of the military system of the Qin Dynasty, it is proved that Qin army much powerful than Alexander army.

this is a link talk about "Alexander pk Qin army military "

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I try to put it in google translate, let some people who don't understand chinese can read, google translate not that good, I already fix a lot, I hope you can understand.

Quote:

Alexander pk Qin army military

1. Command:
At that time, that is, the Chinese have the <Art of War> and
General BaiQi(白起) of the most outstanding commanders such .. Operations to be cunning. While at the same time period to several hundred years of European tactics after the rigid, although the open, but many lose the war!
2. To deal with a ----, Rome in AD 100, when Kazakhstan in Central Asia and siung niu Parthian war, but due to heavy cavalry España constant harassment dispersed, and constantly attack the Romans the weakest link, and finally the Romans lost. Rome is invalid because the spears array is the result of 10-15 feet is not conducive to turning the spears to form a ring, and thus to strike a balance, and finally, in the Parthian cavalry continued impact of the fall in front of a film a few years later, when Parthia controlled the Silk Road, China angrily sent their armed forces, the Chinese people have a superior and more sophisticated tactics and weapons (shell`` trident spear), and their shell than 15 feet of the spear in Rome more there is toughness (I guess ZhaoZiLong 趙子龍was the kind used in ZhangBangSlope 長板坡shell), as well as ancient Rome than the number of light dagger. And the Parthian army in the field after the first Parthian war was easily defeated, and then assumed to be the Chinese generals linked ichthyosis shield array bow with Yellow Hair defeated barbarians recalled the Parthian cavalry people, completely controlled the Silk Road.
Crossbow arrow --- 3 strong efforts, the military array of Lexington, Europe is also developed with the compound bow, the military array gradually introduced the stage of history, but until the 15th century, the battlefield of Europe, there were no such weapons crossbow . China's action much earlier. Crossbow is a bow from the development of long-range weapons, with shells now there are many similarities. With the addition of the machines used to launch Trichosanthes, which could easily target, and made stand. In addition to the same bow can be used as arm strength, but also can be used feet strength or mechanical power, the power of crossbows therefore greatly increased. <Resurrection of the Legion> mentioned in the Qin strong bow--
"And the arch is different from the Qin crossbow must pedal through the power of the body to tighten. Experts estimate that such Qin crossbow range of 300 meters should be able to achieve effective anti-distance of 150 meters, far from destruction of the Qin crossbow At that time, higher than any of the bow.Qin strog bow range and beyond, the limit may be between 900-1000 meters, a modern rifle is in the range of about 1500 meters. bronze sword used in the battlefield fighting for self-defense and close-up, Qin the Warring States period to period, the long-range weapons in the war to play a greater role, was one of the leading weapons. "
A Phi Zhao (趙括)the layers were to penetrate, is the embodiment of its power.
Needless to say any more, and Qin crossbow in front of the crack troops in Macedonia have not yet had time to play again the advantages of spears, the sharp arrows will be perforated! Macedonia spears, advantages in its long, if the attack came from a longer period of Qin crossbows, then hit the plane as Battleship. Even more frightening is the pre-Qin crossbow can be fired at any time a good string, you can target specifically to fight the Macedonian army soldiers carry the shaft, so that he would become a stumbling block in the array, and the front of the spear into the air. . . (6.3 meters Jun also the spear).
4. Cavalry regard. Stirrup is a great invention to change the cavalry. Alexander no stirrups that era, play a little cavalry. Most reconnaissance. He will be brave enough to charge, then launched into a human missile.
Also under the Xiongnu (匈奴人)said, we must not forget that only China has the ability defeat talent Xiongnu, Europeans face the Xiongnu (Huns, however is a tribe) were only beaten on this point has already stated that wins the East West
Westerners are very weak cavalry in battle Canae (Hannibal is the massacre of 60,000 Romans the war) has been proved that the Roman Cavalry Regiment in the weak before. Han has a very strong cavalry, it is similar to the 5th century AD the Huns defeated the Roman Cavalry Regiment
5. At that time, the height of the Europeans and the quality of the Chinese people not tall (now just the opposite). Greater the gap between the number of armed forces! At that time, science and technology in China is already the world's first, and logistics to supply one million troops. Unmatched in Europe!
6 of the First Qin Emperor Alexander than for several decades too late to say the least, his best time of 50,000 people, however, and the equipment is not standardized.

There are millions of the founding of the armed forces of the First Qin Emperor, is the standardization of weapons production, the shape of the arrow, the same angle, the length of the sword, the length of the shell also has its own standard. Unearthed in northern China and the South have been unearthed in cultural relics comparison . China Central Television Channel also broadcast over science and education. The real weapons of the European standardization of production to the Roman period. than in our country for hundreds of years later.

FriedRiceNSpice · 07-11-2009

That translation must be totally off... because last time I checked the Han did not have rifles. Must be problems with, "qiang," and spear/rifle.

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