SinoDefence Forum

bd popeye · 08-16-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by kliu0

The MND confirmed that the US is sending CH-53E Super Stallions via Amphibious Transport Dock and that they will arrive tomorrow. So far only a USAF C-130 has arrived to deliver supplies at around 2pm in Taiwan time, at a ROCAF base in Tainan.

US aid has begun to arrive in the ROC.

Quote:

A USMC C-130 aircraft lands at an air force base in Tainan, in southern Taiwan on August 16, 2009 arriving from a US airbase in Okinawa, Japan loaded with relief aid. The US flew aircraft to Taiwan as China offered to send helicopters to help rescue more than 1,300 people still stranded a week after Typhoon Morakot struck the island. The US flights marked the first US military deployment in Taiwan since 1979, when US troops based on the island left after Washington shifted its diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing. AFP PHOTO / Sam YEH (Photo credit should read SAM YEH/AFP/Getty Images)

Quote:

US aid is loaded onto a truck from the back of a C-130 US Marine aircraft at the air force base in Tainan, in southern Taiwan on August 16, 2009 arriving from a US airbase in Okinawa, Japan.AFP PHOTO

kliu0 · 08-16-2009

Thanks for the pics! This is something truly symbolic.

Oh, it was marine C-130. I thought it was USAF. Oh well. Learn something new everyday.

News from CNN is that the USS Denver will be the ship supporting the relief effort. It carries the CH-53Es, and could provide more aid as they have water purification capabilities.

Link: Taiwan President Takes Blame For Typhoon Response

bd popeye · 08-16-2009

Quote:

News from CNN is that the USS Denver will be the ship supporting the relief effort. It carries the CH-53Es, and could provide more aid as they have water purification capabilities.

All USN ships have desalinization plants along with the ability to purify water. I think the Denver is carrying 4 CH-53s and I'm sure will add some extra medical personnel.

kliu0 · 08-17-2009

Thanks for the info. It makes me and the Taiwanese people (as reported by the media) feel more confident that Taiwan is going to get through this, as the US is coming to help in the relief effort.

The USS Denver is carrying 2 CH-53Es, and 2 SH-60s. Another C-130 arrived this time carrying medical supplies and chlorine tablets arrived at 12pm Taiwan time at Tainan's ROCAF base.

If you guys are interested, I update at least once a day on my blog with alot of information about the typhoon news. It's at Kai ??? - ????.

But yeah, as I said I update often, with information that you can't find in English.

NOTE: Just ignore 1 post titled: "Further updates on Typhoon Morakot" as it contains large amounts of inappropriate language. Sorry, in advance. Every other post is fine, it was just that one.

Troika · 08-17-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by bd popeye

Welcome to our forum TheProfitt! Be sure to read the forum rules!

FORUM RULES: Things to Remember Before Posting, important, please read!

As to your question. I don't think China has been asked or is planning on sending any help. That sort of action could trigger some sort of adverse action within China's borders.

Uh, like what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kliu0

Not only the political reasons. Look at the military reasons, from a military point of view, it should not even be considered. Symbolically, if China sends in PLA helicopters it would send a ripple throughout Taiwan's armed forces, even if its peaceful. National security issues, with regard to Taiwan terrain, location of military bases and equipment (especially hidden ones) would have a higher chance of being discovered. While of course China already sees alot from satellites, but the naked eye is always better.

Well, the Chinese Mi-26s ARE civilian models and civilian-operated...

But that is relatively immaterial, they are too late to do anything NOW, except perhaps the not-insignificant task of diverting the landslide dams by moving the heavy equipment.

You are right in that there was never any way they'd let the Chinese boys who'd do the most good (PLA engineers and other specialists) go within 50 miles of the island. There might have been some sort of way around it like having them come in as tourists, but it wasn't going to happen soon enough, which is within the first 3 days, to make a difference. By the time any such creative solutions get implemented it'd be all over except the rebuilding.

Anyway, there was only so much airspace available over the disaster areas. command and co-ordination is going to be a tough trick for the RoC's 100+ helicopters and however many civilian ones they can draft and commandeer alone. Add in the awful weather, and it is not clear to me adding more helicopters with possible language and definitely command and control barriers is going to be a super-smart thing. Super-heavy lifters frankly add no capability not already possessed by the RoCA Chinooks until the heavy equipment is required.

The trouble doesn't lie as much in not asking for foreign helicopters sooner or refusing Chinese ones as much as incompetent deployment and use of what the RoCA already have.

I also can't say I altogether approve the military and political reasoning that places such considerations (I accept them as a matter of pragmatism, but acceptance is not approval) over human life, but we'll leave that for later.

Anyway, rant over. I can't do no more but to send my good wishes and some donation to the victims of this typhoon.

bd popeye · 08-17-2009

Quote:

Uh, like what?

Political upevil and demonstrations. And we don't discuss politics in our forum.

Troika · 08-17-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by bd popeye

Political upevil and demonstrations. And we don't discuss politics in our forum.

You brought it up... Frankly, though I don't think that's at all likely to happen.

vesicles · 08-17-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by kliu0

Reports that the soldiers stopped for 40 mins in order to welcome the defense minister and to take group pictures. Theres a picture included in the article.

I hope I misunderstood this. Does anybody have a problem with this? I mean stopping to welcome the defense minister AND TAKE PHOTOS? I thought there were people to save

40 min is an enternity for somebody desperately waiting to be saved.

bd popeye · 08-17-2009

Quote:

A US Navy MH-53 Sea Dragon helicopter lands at the Tainan air force base in southern Taiwan on August 17, 2009 for Typhoon relief efforts. A US military C-130 transport aircraft carrying relief supplies landed on August 16, marking the first US military activity in Taiwan since 1979, when Washington shifted its diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing. AFP PHOTO / Sam YEH (Photo credit should read SAM YEH/AFP/Getty Images)

Quote:

Soldiers smell the ground while looking for the bodies of flood victims in the mudslide-affected village of Sinkai, following Typhoon Morakot in Kaohsiung County, southern Taiwan August 17, 2009.

Quote:

The media (L) gather around a mother and her child as they are driven away after arriving by helicopter to the typhoon rescue centre in Chiashien, in Kaohsiung county, southern Taiwan, on August 17, 2009. Soldiers searched typhoon-devastated areas for survivors and bodies on August 17 as more than 1,600 people waited to be airlifted to safety nine days after Typhoon Morakot struck Taiwan killing at least 126. AFP PHOTO / Peter PARKS (Photo credit should read PETER PARKS/AFP/Getty Images)

Quote:

Buddhist Nuns prepare for a funeral of a typhoon victim in the town of Chiashien in Kaohsiung county, southern Taiwan, on August 17, 2009. Nine days after Typhoon Morakot struck Taiwan the official death toll rose to 126, but President Ma Ying-jeou has warned that the number could climb to more than 500, with hundreds feared buried beneath the rubble in the southern village of Hsiaolin. AFP PHOTO/Peter PARKS (Photo credit should read PETER PARKS/AFP/Getty Images)

Quote:

Pathologists take a rest outside a makeshift morgue in the town of Chiashien in Kaohsiung county, southern Taiwan, on August 17, 2009.

Quote:

Volunteers sort donated clothes for typhoon victims at the typhoon rescue centre in Chiashien, in southern Taiwan's Kaohsiung county on August 17, 2009. More than 140,000 troops battled to reach survivors stranded a week after Typhoon Morakot struck as the US and China(?) offered helicopters to help in the rescue effort. AFP PHOTO/Peter PARKS (Photo credit should read PETER PARKS/AFP/Getty Images)

Quote:

The wife of the Mayor of Kaohsiung, Shau Hsiao-Lin (C) talks to the media as she visits people waiting for news of their relatives at the typhoon rescue centre in Chiashien, in southern Taiwan's Kaohsiung county on August 17, 2009

Quote:

Words of encouragement for victims of typhoon Morakot are displayed on Taiwan's landmark 101 building in Taipei August 17, 2009. The characters read, "Go Taiwan".

Quote:

Hong Kong singers and actors take part in the "Artists 88 Fund Raising Campaign" in Hong Kong August 17, 2009, to raise funds for Typhoon Morakot victims in Taiwan. From left is Jacky Cheung, Alan Tam, Andy Lau and Sammi Cheng.

Quote:

This image released by the Taiwan Military News Agency shows an aerial view of major landside damage in the mountains Alishan, in south central Taiwan, Monday, Aug. 17, 2009

Quote:

A rescuer chants prayers for flood victims in front of the only house left in the flooded-affected village of Hsiao Lin, in Kaohsiung County, southern Taiwan August 16, 2009.

Quote:

Family members of the deceased come to the major landslide village of Shiao Lin and call their late family's spirit to rest in peace following Typhoon Morakot hit the area Sunday, Aug. 16, 2009, in Kaohsiung County, southern Taiwan.

kliu0 · 08-17-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by vesicles

I hope I misunderstood this. Does anybody have a problem with this? I mean stopping to welcome the defense minister AND TAKE PHOTOS? I thought there were people to save

40 min is an enternity for somebody desperately waiting to be saved.

Nope. It's as clear as uh....can't find a simile for it. But yeah, terrible terrible. The media blasted them, so did the survivors and relatives of the victims, saying that those vital 40 mins could've been used to build another temporary bridge or potentially find some more people.

Frankly, I believe it was completely inappropriate for that to happen, it is not a "show" it is a matter of life-death situation for survivors.

In other news. When Bush offered the big 2001 arms package to Taiwan, guess what it included and everyone forgot about = MH-53E helicopters, yep...the exact same ones the USS Denver is sending to aid Taiwan. 7 years of legislative yuan fighting and they bought nearly everything except the MH-53E helicopters. Bush offered 12, of course it's purpose wasn't just heavy lifting, it was a minesweeper too. But the point is that Taiwan had the chance, and "politics" factored into the high death toll. All I can say is: Let the blame game begin.

But, on a much nicer note. Is it too late to buy the MH-53Es? Given that it was approved for sale in 2001, would the approval still be valid now?

bd popeye · 08-18-2009

US Navy Sea Dragons & Sea Hawks in action on Taiwan...

Quote:

In these photos released by the Taiwan Military News Agency, a US CH-53 helicopter lifts a front hoe at the Tainan air force base in southern Taiwan, to support typhoon rescue operations, Tuesday, Aug. 18, 2009. Taiwan's vice foreign minister resigned Tuesday to take responsibility for his agency's initial rejection of aid from other governments following Typhoon Morakot, which claimed about 500 lives and caused an estimated $1.5 billion in damage.

Quote:

U.S. military personnel set up communication equipment in front of a MH-53E Sea Dragon helicopter at Tainan air force base in southern Taiwan August 18, 2009. U.S. sends military personnel and helicopters which will be used to help inspect landslide-affected areas and transport excavators to the mountains that had landslides in Kaohsiung County following typhoon Morakot.

Quote:

A U.S. Navy MH-60 Sea Hawk helicopter (front) lands as a U.S. Navy MH-53E Sea Dragon helicopter is seen in the background at Tainan air force base in southern Taiwan August 18, 2009.

Aero_Wing_32 · 08-19-2009

puzzling, like the simple cancellation of the national day celebration... I don t understand Mr MA. The Nation would be united in such difficult circumstances.
Will he also cancel the (pretty difficult) purchase of the F-16s C/D?

Mr T · 08-19-2009

He's(Ma) panicking in a desperate attempt to regain control of the media narrative that has turned against him after his slip-shod response to the disaster. There is no logical reason other than "I need to do something!"

kliu0 · 08-20-2009

Not only has he lost the people...(well we know he lost alot of people from before already), he has lost the military too. The hard fought UH-60 procurement plan by the Army has now been half scrapped.

The thing is, what can Taiwan buy with the money not used to purchase 15 UH-60s??? The reason the MH-53Es weren't purchased was because it was too expensive. For the amount of money that you can buy 15 UH-60s, you obviously can't get any better than a UH-60, the only choice is to go lower....or upgrade. The decision was stupid, when you look at the fact that army helicopters are going to be called in for any natural disaster anyway. No point in reallocating resources.

Frankly, no one understands him. As the first lady said, hes not a "people" person. He could cancel anything, hes desperately trying to save himself not the people. 12 days after the typhoon, then he visits the village of Hsiao lin.

And the "oh, nature is our enemy" thing is completely irrelevant. Clearly he doesn't know what the different branches of the government are, what is the NASC for? The various centres for disaster control are empty government bodies? Changing the whole role of the armed forces to "fight nature" is stupid, if they expand the role of the armed forces it would be great, but to prioritize it is just ****.

Violet Oboe · 08-20-2009

Ma is perfectly simple to understand: he is struggling for his political survival just like any politician in a comparably critical situation would do.

As measured by the lenghts (or better depths!

) his predecessor went for desperately clinging on to power Ma certainly has not crossed any ´red lines´ Taiwanese people unfortunately () have got already used to.

At least the economy is rebounding quite strongly as Ma has timely removed obsolete hurdles in trade and investment with the Mainland overcoming the US induced global financial crisis more rapidly than many Western observers expected

.

SinoDefence Forum

Typhoon Morakot News/Photos aid and donation information

Typhoon Morakot News/Photos aid and donation information

DefenceTalk Military Pictures

vBulletin Tweet Poster