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Philippines Vs Taiwan... Troubled Waters

This is a discussion on Philippines Vs Taiwan... Troubled Waters within the Members' Club Room forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by t_co This is a golden opportunity for the PLAN to do some 'freedom of navigation' patrols in ...

  1. #46
    joshuatree is offline Senior Member
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    Re: Philippines Vs Taiwan... Troubled Waters

    Quote Originally Posted by t_co View Post
    This is a golden opportunity for the PLAN to do some 'freedom of navigation' patrols in the area. If I were the Nanjing MR commander I'd sortie a few H-6s loaded with anti-shipping missiles and J-11Bs into the area for good measure. Would make a great photo op if they staged it with the ROCN as well.
    I think that's overkill and would backfire. Is this an opportunity for China to better relations with Taiwan? Yes, but not at the military level. Proposing such measures would put Taiwan in a bind domestically as well as foreign; you can bet the US will be having some backroom chats with Taiwan about it. Keep it strictly on the civilian side, maybe more joint CG exercises. I think donating a pair of 1000 ton cutters would be the most without crossing the line. Considering how those 1000 ton cutters are being churned out at the shipyards, another pair isn't hard to produce.

  2. #47
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    Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

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    Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    That's always been their standard MO, accuse the opposition with slander. Just a day or two ago, when the Philippines had yet to confirm they pulled the trigger, we had people saying it's some conspiracy job by China.


    Anyways....this just got a little hotter.

    Death on the High Seas: Ma issues ultimatum over fishermans death
    Okay, now I'm somewhat impressed. This is an uncharacteristically tough stance from Taiwan.

    On another note:



    WTF? Is that guy doing a flying jump kick against another guy holding a gun????
    Last edited by solarz; 05-11-2013 at 10:24 PM.
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  4. #49
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    Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

    Quote Originally Posted by AssassinsMace View Post
    I'm wondering why they would open fire at all. Does the Philippines have a history of firing on unarmed vessels? Any other country... it's not like it would serve a purpose especially since every country in the region is against China. But if they thought it was from China, ironically, they could get something. They can't make up a story with any other country except for China because the West would so easily believe it. They probably thought they can play victim by orchestrating a fake incident and accuse China of aggression in order to get free stuff from the US but they ended up firing on the wrong ship.
    t*7~ FD K*GߴHUJIsDUɹql

    含冤7年 政府不聞不問 滿春億船員:心寒
    2013-05-11 02:26 中國時報【黃力勉╱台東報導】
    琉球籍漁船「廣大興28號」船員遭菲律賓海岸防衛隊開槍射殺,台東新港籍漁船「滿春億號」,七年前也遭到菲 律賓水警槍擊造成船長及大副一死一重傷。事隔七年,家屬對於政府不聞不問頻嘆無奈,死者含冤未白也不願再多 提。
    七年前滿春億號遭到槍擊,還一度傳出是海盜所為,沒想到經查證竟是菲律賓水警開槍,造成滿春億船長陳安老死 亡、大副陳明德重傷,當年菲律賓水警開槍托辭與廣大興28號如出一轍,都說是因為水警船隻遭到 衝撞才開槍。
    陳明德家人談到七年前往事,不禁眼眶泛紅但不願多談。在接受採訪時,陳明德的妻子陳洪淑美潸然淚下,強調政 府的不作為、不聞不問,讓他們很心寒,多說也無益,乾脆就讓痛苦記憶深埋心中。
    陳洪淑美說,先生中槍之後,經過三次開刀、置換人工髖關節,才保住一命。不過因為傷到神經,至今仍常會抽筋 ,晚上都睡不好覺,為了生計要忍著抽筋疼痛出海捕魚,至今仍不敢到離台東太遠的外海作業。
    陳洪淑美不斷嘆氣說「沒法度」、「無奈」。當年在立委雷倩陪同到立院開記者會,希望可以獲得應有正義,但經 過這麼多年,早就希望變失望,失望變絕望,只能不要回想、不要談,讓這段記憶不要再被掀起。
    台東地檢署檢察官針對滿春億號遭槍擊還曾遠赴菲律賓調查,對開搶水警完成訊問及測謊,還勘驗槍隻、帶回相關 筆錄及證物。地檢署認為水警執法過當,將他們依殺人罪嫌起訴。
    不過兩名水警從未到台受審,全案也因為無法審理,因此也對兩名水警發出通緝,但因為兩國無邦交,地檢署無法 到菲律賓行使公權力,讓全案至今仍懸而未決。


    Translation with help of Google translate


    Seven Years Wronged Justice, Authority Indifferent, 滿春億 Crew: Utter Disappointment
    2013-05-11 02:26 China Times reports (Note: a major newspaper in ROC)
    Huang Li Mian in Taitung, Taiwan


    Ryukyu registered boats, 「廣大興28號」(Note: the name of the fishing boat in the 2013 shooting incident) crew was shot by the Philippine Coast Guard. Similarly, Taitung Newport registered fishing boat 「滿春億號」 was shot by the Philippine Marine Police seven years ago causing the death of the captain and serious injury of the first mate. After a lapse of seven years, the family members felt helpless against the the government indifferent. The deceased was wronged and justice not fulfilled and they felt it is hopeless to mention it again.

    Seven years ago, the 「滿春億號」 had been shot and was once thought to be pirates and later confirmed to be the Philippines Marine Police opened fire, resulting in the death of 「滿春億號」 Captain 陳安老 and first mate 陳明德 seriously injured. The excuse used by the Philippine Marine police is exactly the same with the 「廣大興28號」 of 2013, accusation of attempted ramming.

    陳明德 family talked about seven years to the matter, can not help but do not want to talk about eyes fill with tears. In an interview 陳明德 wife, 陳洪淑美 shed a tear, stressed that the government is indifferent, so that they are disappointed, to say the futility of it, simply let painful memories buried deep hearts.

    Said 陳洪淑美 of her husband, after three surgery, replacement hip joints, to save his life. However, because of the injury to the nerve, still often cramps, night cannot sleep well, have to endure cramping pain to make a living on fishing expeditions, still afraid to sail too far off the coast from Taitung.

    陳洪淑美 continue to sigh can not say "degree", "helpless". Yuan Legislator Joanna Lei, accompanied by a press conference to the Legislative Yuan, should hope to get justice, but after so many years, long hoped to become disappointed, disappointment into despair, do not recall, do not talk, so the hurtful memory would not be set off.

    Taitung District Prosecutor's Office responsible for the 「滿春億號」 shooting incident, had also traveled to the Philippines to investigate, off to grab the completion of the Marine Police interrogation and polygraph also examine guns, back to the relevant transcripts and exhibits. Prosecutor's Office concluded that Marine law enforcement use excessive force, they will be prosecuted in accordance with the charge of man slaughter.

    However, the two accused marine official was never tried in Taiwan, because they can not execute an arrest warrant, because the two countries have no diplomatic relations, the Prosecutor's Office cannot exercise state judicial power in the Philippines, so that the whole case is still pending.

  5. #50
    Jeff Head's Avatar
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    Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

    Yes, I see they have admitted it now. Then they will certainly end up settling it with Taiwan and the family will probably get some kind of monetary award.

    The story is hogwash. That the Coast Guard had to fire on a fishing trawler to keep it from "ramming" it sounds ludicrous. 1st, the Coast Guard cutter could have simply moved and was probably faster. 2nd, I'd like to know the displacements of the two vessels.

    Foolish. Clearly, someone lost it out there and an individual was killed as a result.

    So they saw two unidentified ships and left. This means they were afraid and knew full well, IMHO, that they had done wrong.
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  6. #51
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    Re: Philippines Vs Taiwan... Troubled Waters

    China, Taiwan protest fatal shooting of fisherman by Philippines - latimes.com

    Looks like the Chinese have already stepped up to take advantage of this diplomatic coup.

  7. #52
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    Re: Philippines Vs Taiwan... Troubled Waters

    It's pretty despicable how the Philippine side tries to inject China into an incident between Taiwan and the Philippines as if somehow it makes killing a Taiwanese fisherman out to be less. Yeah China is taking advantage. No different from the Philippines taking advantage of disputes between Japan and China.
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  8. #53
    joshuatree is offline Senior Member
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    Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Head View Post
    Yes, I see they have admitted it now. Then they will certainly end up settling it with Taiwan and the family will probably get some kind of monetary award.

    The story is hogwash. That the Coast Guard had to fire on a fishing trawler to keep it from "ramming" it sounds ludicrous. 1st, the Coast Guard cutter could have simply moved and was probably faster. 2nd, I'd like to know the displacements of the two vessels.

    Foolish. Clearly, someone lost it out there and an individual was killed as a result.

    So they saw two unidentified ships and left. This means they were afraid and knew full well, IMHO, that they had done wrong.

    The fishing boat is about 15 tonnes per this article.

    Death on the High Seas: Over 50 bullet holes found on Taiwan boat

    A total of 52 bullet holes were found on the Kuang Ta Hsing No. 28, Liu Chia-kai (劉嘉凱) from the Pingtung District Prosecutors Office, said after examining the 15-tonne vessel that is registered in Liouciou Township (琉球), Pingtung County.
    And from the Filipino media, BFAR MCS-3001 is a 30 meter vessel or about 100 feet. Don't know if anyone can deduce displacement from that. But so far, it's looking like the PCG vessel was in no harm at all.

    I find the story from the Filipino side not adding up and highly suspicious. It's been at least two days later and there's no footage of the PCG vessel back in dock for assessment. No proof of any damage from a supposed ramming attempt. In previous engagements, the Filipinos have video footage. One YouTube clip they posted boasts how they supposedly "out maneuver" CMS ships. In the boarding attempt that started the standoff at Scarborough, they had photos. So clearly they possess camcorder and camera equipment. This time, nada. Also no indication of any communication between PCG vessel and home base. Therefore, no proof of their story whatsoever.

    The Filipino media identified the incident as 43nm east of Balintang Island but the WSJ article mentions east of Batanes. Different locations, I'm wondering if there's any doctoring now because closer to Batanes means even less argument that it was in undisputed waters. Not only is the claim of being in Filipino territory questionable, but there has been zero evidence offered that the fishing boat was conducting illegal fishing at all. Fishing boats still need to transit to their spots so is it a crime to transit now? What if the vessel was on its way to or from the Western Pacific? I doubt they mistook that boat for a Chinese flagged ship. They encounter those in the SCS all the time and you don't see them firing at all. No, they knew this is a Taiwanese vessel and having done this in 2006 with no repercussions, they felt they could do it again. I'm glad President Ma is taking a strong stance with a 72 hour ultimatum. Either way on whether the Philippines accepts or rejects is a lose-lose proposition for them.
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  9. #54
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    Re: Philippines Vs Taiwan... Troubled Waters

    Quote Originally Posted by AssassinsMace View Post
    It's pretty despicable how the Philippine side tries to inject China into an incident between Taiwan and the Philippines as if somehow it makes killing a Taiwanese fisherman out to be less. Yeah China is taking advantage. No different from the Philippines taking advantage of disputes between Japan and China.
    What did you expect? The Philippines have been making up the same kind of nonsense arguments every time they start something with China. The only difference this time is that since the victim isn't Chinese, the western media doesn't automatically take whatever the Philippines says as the unvarnished truth, and the slightest bit of critical thinking and asking some blindingly obvious questions leaves massive gaping holes in the Philippine's story.

    Instead of coming up with a better lie or coming clean, the Philippines is trying to drag China into the dispute, as if by some magic, their nonsense BS story about shooting up an unarmed Taiwanese fishing boat in 'self defence' will suddenly make perfect sense if they can somehow make it that they shot up an unarmed Chinese fishing boat instead. And the truly sad and pathetic thing is, it would probably work if they can somehow make the Taiwanese boat Chinese, or if they shot up a Chinese boat to start with, as I suspect was what they actually intended all along. The Taiwanese fishing boat was just unlucky because they Filipino coast guard crew apparently couldn't tell Taiwan from China.
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    Re: Philippines Vs Taiwan... Troubled Waters

    Quote Originally Posted by t_co View Post
    This is a golden opportunity for the PLAN to do some 'freedom of navigation' patrols in the area. If I were the Nanjing MR commander I'd sortie a few H-6s loaded with anti-shipping missiles and J-11Bs into the area for good measure. Would make a great photo op if they staged it with the ROCN as well.
    Luckily you are not the commander. Thanks God

  11. #56
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    Re: Philippines Vs Taiwan... Troubled Waters

    Could open the doors to a PLAN Anti-Piracy Police Action in the South China Seas.
    Likewise joint protection to both PRC and ROC flagged fisherman from both PLAN and Taiwanese Navies.
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    Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Head View Post
    Yes, I see they have admitted it now. Then they will certainly end up settling it with Taiwan and the family will probably get some kind of monetary award.

    The story is hogwash. That the Coast Guard had to fire on a fishing trawler to keep it from "ramming" it sounds ludicrous. 1st, the Coast Guard cutter could have simply moved and was probably faster. 2nd, I'd like to know the displacements of the two vessels.

    Foolish. Clearly, someone lost it out there and an individual was killed as a result.

    So they saw two unidentified ships and left. This means they were afraid and knew full well, IMHO, that they had done wrong.
    jeff you can't use US coast guard logic and procedures and apply it to the Philippines coast guard. this is the Philippines we're talking about. the most incompetent and underachieving nation in asia. is there ANYTHING that this nation does that is not an embarressement? have you forgotten that most outrageous hostage rescue event of hong kong tourists a few years back by the pinoy police swat team? they are utterly useless.
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    Re: Philippines Vs Taiwan... Troubled Waters

    This was inevitable, the Chinese government should push this as much as possible, the US along with Japan, Vietnam and the Philippines have been trying to paint China as the bad guy throughout all this, now the momentum is turning against them and the reality of the situation is starting to settle in.

    Supporting the pivot doesn't just mean containing China, it means explicit support for Japan, Vietnam and Philippines. China should use this to remind people that a balance of power between so many nations with so many differing interests can lead to quagmire of disputes, ones which the Chinese should fully support and balloon to the point where it will nullify America's efforts.

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    Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.bean View Post
    jeff you can't use US coast guard logic and procedures and apply it to the Philippines coast guard. this is the Philippines we're talking about. the most incompetent and underachieving nation in asia. is there ANYTHING that this nation does that is not an embarressement? have you forgotten that most outrageous hostage rescue event of hong kong tourists a few years back by the pinoy police swat team? they are utterly useless.
    I'll tell you something else that's an embarrassment, deliberately flouting the forum's rule of no country bashing is an embarrassment.
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    Re: Philippines Vs Taiwan... Troubled Waters

    I am afraid that this is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to nastiness in the disputed waters. There are rumors from Taiwanese BBS that the Filipino navy sometimes recruit former pirates, which may account for the lack of professionalism during this incidient.
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