Osama Bin Laden has been killed

what is the story with the remains of the destroyed helicopter. Did China get the remains? I heard that they did.

Originally Posted by AssassinsMace

China benefits from Iraqi oil contracts because Western companies won't take the risks not because of corruption.

China had to go to places like Angola, Libya, and Iraq because there is no where else to go anymore.
Exxons and BPs and Shells of the world has pretty much sucked up anywhere there is easy oil.

Originally Posted by ToxSic

brings back to mind the old wild west films...

The more civilized days.

Thanks for your kind explanation. Very clear!

Originally Posted by i.e.

The end result is still the same.
good intentions do not mean good results.

oh btw Food for Oil was established in 95. for the purpose to alleviate the effect of sanctions on civilians.
before that you still had the massive sanctions against Iraq.
Sanctions like these are based on the logic that one can make a regime change by make its people's life so miserable ( by depravation of civil goods )that they will rise up and revolt thus topple of regime.

This logic is almost same one strategic bombing is based on: that one can make a regime change by make its people's life so miserable ( by massive aerial bombardment of civilian population ) that they will rise up and revolt thus topple of regime.

This logic is also the same one terrorists use: that one can make a political change by make its people's life so miserable ( by acts of terror against a civilian population ) that they will rise up and demand a political change.

see the parallels?

I guess some acts of deprivation against civilians are more acceptable if one can label a regime "evil" and starve and bomb instead of using individual acts of terror.
and that it is the big and powerful that does it.

If one analyzes from a purely utilitarian view, then I would say what we call "terrorism" actually has more utility. because it actually kills far less people (instead of mass starvation and death by strategic bombing, which historically has had far far more victims than terrorist acts) to achieve a political change.

But some how one is more acceptable in international civility than the other.

for the record: I am against any acts of depravation against a civilian population: either with terror, aerial bombardment, or sanctions.

there is a far more effective way to settle differences: we can make the politicans having duels with each other, instead of try to make innocent people kill other innocent people.

for example: GWB could have a pistol duel with OBL. I am sure GWB will win. that is far less costly than the two wars and however many killed.

Actually sanctions and bombings are demonstrations of hard power tactics and punishments on states which violated the norms of the international community. (-IR minor)

Originally Posted by airsuperiority

Actually sanctions and bombings are demonstrations of hard power tactics and punishments on states which violated the norms of the international community. (-IR minor)

yes, if you want to couch it in less troubling terms.

The legality may be different. But the mechanism is the similiar, i.e. causing pain and suffering on a civilian population (kill people) to affect a political change.

Terrorism, by definition, describes a mechanism which to affect political change.

So world's the most powerful millitary force finally "blew the head off " a dying kidney-patient (that was 10 years ago) after what, 10 years and $ 3 trillion bonanza for its defence firms?

The whole fantacy sounds more realistic than Flying Pigs.

rofl. Sorry but if they have given me $ 0.001 trillion, I would have handed him over personally ( tell me how you want him, dead? alive? half dead? roasted? baked? ...) for the 1st anniversary gathering of 9/11. Hey, win-win! lol.

Pakistan Hints China Wants a Peek at Secret Helicopter

I wouldn't be surprised if Chinese engineers haven't already studied it.

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Originally Posted by ccL1

Pakistan Hints China Wants a Peek at Secret Helicopter

I wouldn't be surprised if Chinese engineers haven't already studied it.

Not a surprising move, though hardly can much out of with just a tail section and small pieces of scrap.

I have a question, not sure if it's been raised before... But if the US really wanted to take the guy alive why not tase him? Or at least arm a few of the seals with tasers... There is no reason why they shouldn't have been. Even if bin laden had a suicide vest on it won't have made much of a difference as he would have as much reaction time to press the button than if say he got shot in the head, either way he won't have the body control to activate the vest. And he wasn't wearing one anyhow...

it was probably too embarassing to have him stand trial. I would have thought that the Americans could have coped with the revalation ... once again... of Osama's
previous relationship with them.

Look how they tried Saddam on a relatively small offence, rather than something like gassing the Kurds

Originally Posted by bladerunner

it was probably too embarassing to have him stand trial. I would have thought that the Americans could have coped with the revalation ... once again... of Osama's
previous relationship with them.

Look how they tried Saddam on a relatively small offence, rather than something like gassing the Kurds

You do know OBL have no intention to be taken alive, right? And in any case he'd have to die for what he had done, be it by firing squad / hangman / needle / electric chair, or Navy SEALs put a bullet in his head the ultimate result won't be too much different. His fans (including the HAMAS gov't) will still hail him as a martyr however way he brought it, while we just glad he died a non-glorifying end - no last blaze of glory, and thrown overboard in a weighted bag.

Besides, now the US have AQ's operation playbook and other things.

Originally Posted by bladerunner

it was probably too embarassing to have him stand trial.

Embarrassing? Try dangerous. Which court in America could have possibly tried him safely? And imagine the number of kidnappings and terrorist attacks that would have been spurred by this in the (vain) hope of getting him released.

The far safest way to deal with this was to shoot the guy on sight. In an ideal world he would have been tried and convicted, but we don't live in an ideal world.

..

Pakistan let China see crashed US "stealth" copter
By Rosalind Russell and Alison Williams | Reuters – 1 hr 32 mins ago...

A general view of the final hiding place of Al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden in Abbottabad …

..ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistan gave China access to the previously unknown U.S. "stealth" helicopter that crashed during the commando raid that killed Osama bin Laden in May despite explicit requests from the CIA not to, the Financial Times reported on Sunday.

The disclosure, if confirmed, is likely to further shake the U.S.-Pakistan relationship, which has been improving slightly after hitting its lowest point in decades following the killing of bin Laden.

During the raid, one of two modified Blackhawk helicopters, believed to employ unknown stealth capability, malfunctioned and crashed, forcing the commandos to abandon it.

"The U.S. now has information that Pakistan, particularly the ISI, gave access to the Chinese military to the downed helicopter in Abbottabad," the paper quoted a person "in intelligence circles" as saying on its website.

It said Pakistan, which enjoys a close relationship with China, allowed Chinese intelligence officials to take pictures of the crashed aircraft as well as take samples of its special "skin" that allowed the American raid to evade Pakistani radar.

One U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told Reuters there was reason to believe Pakistan had allowed the Chinese to inspect the aircraft. But the official could not confirm it happened with certainty.

No one from the Pakistani army was available for comment, but the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI), Pakistan's top spy agency, denied the report. The paper said Pakistan's top general, chief of army staff Ashfaq Kayani, denied that China had been given access.

The surviving tail section, photos of which were widely distributed on the Internet, was returned to the United States following a trip by U.S. Senator John Kerry in May, a spokesman for the U.S. embassy told Reuters.

Shortly after the raid, Pakistan hinted that it might give China access to the helicopter, given its fury over the raid, which it considers a grievous violation of its sovereignty.

"We had explicitly asked the Pakistanis in the immediate aftermath of the raid not to let anyone have access to the damaged remains of the helicopter," the Financial Times quoted the source as saying.

In an incident such as the helicopter crash, it is standard American procedure to destroy sophisticated technology such as encrypted communications and navigation computers.

DISPLEASURE

Pakistan is a strategic ally to the United States but the relationship has been on a downward spiral since the killing of the al Qaeda leader in the raid by U.S. forces.

Islamabad was not informed in advance and responded by cutting back on U.S. trainers in the country and placing limits on CIA activities there.

The fact that the al Qaeda chief lived for years near the Pakistani army's main academy in the northwestern garrison town of Abbottabad reinforced suspicions in Washington about Islamabad's reliability in the war against militant Islamists.

There are also growing frustrations with Pakistan over its reluctance to mount offensives against militant factions in the northwest who are fighting U.S.-led foreign forces across the border in Afghanistan.

In a show of displeasure over Pakistan's cutback in U.S. trainers, its limits on visas for U.S. personnel and other bilateral irritants, the United States has suspended about a third of its $2.7 billion annual defense aid to Pakistan.

Despite this, both sides have tried to prevent a breakdown of relations.

The head of Pakistan's powerful Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha, visited the United States last month for talks with U.S. government and intelligence officials, which both sides said went well.

Despite the billions in aid, Pakistan still considers China a more reliable ally than the United States. China is a major investor in predominantly Muslim Pakistan in areas such as telecommunications, ports and infrastructure. The countries are linked by a Chinese-built road pushed through Pakistan's northern mountains.

Trade with Pakistan is worth almost $9 billion a year for Pakistan, and China is its top arms supplier.

In the wake of attacks that left 11 people dead in the China's western region of Xinjiang in late July, Pakistan dispatched the ISI's Pasha to Beijing.

(Writing and additional reporting by Chris Allbritton in Islamabad, Mark Hosenball and Phil Stewart in Washington; Editing by Rosalind Russell and Alison Williams)

A lot of detail of how the Chinese examined the craft yet...

But the official could not confirm it happened with certainty

Maybe the RAM paint chips missing, after a crash and the SEALs blowing it up, gave it away.