Max Brooks: World War Z

Man I absolutely LOVE that book. And the "prequel" the Zombie survival guide. FYI there's a movie coming out in 2012 or something, featuring brad pitt, according to max brooks himself.

As to the treatment of China, it was kinda stereotypical, but frankly max didn't speak very well of the west either. In his scenario, public lack of trust in the American government severly hinders the government's attempt to contain the plague early on, in the book said to be because the government had fooled the public so many times (clearly a hint towards Iraq and the war on terror). American corporations unscrupulously use the fear to make huge amounts of money for themselves while making the situation much worse.

China changing government in western books is sometimes anti-China drivel, but in this book, so many countries completely change their nature and government, that i can be forgiven. As you mention yourself. I think China actually got a fair treatment. In the book China is the largest and most dynamic economy in the world. Even that is a concession for many western writers.

As to the PLA, I think that it would be one of the armies most suited to dealing with the zombie plague as presented in the book, if they knew what they were up against and had proper strategies for dealing with them. Max highlights how the super-technological armies of the west are completely ineffective against the zombies, and in the end has to opt for a pure infantry army armed with carbines.

PS: I didn't bother hiding any information. If you want to discuss the book, you have to mention stuff

Originally Posted by solarz

Just for fun, let's share some thoughts on how the PLA would *actually* perform in case of a full blown zombie apocalypse.

That's actually an interesting question, and a similar idea occured to me when I watched a trailer for the upcoming alien invasion film Battle LA, where the US marines are depicted as having massive amounts of helicopters and the individual soldiers are depicted as the sterreotypical full spectrum warrior.
Obviously the PLA have barely any helicopters at all, and the main power lies in the ground forces and manpower.
Vs Zombies the PLA might be alright, with large numbers of armored vehicles like tanks and IFVs to shred away the undead. Human wave tactics are obviously ridiculous and I think how well any military force will perform depends on how many bullets and guns they have.
Vs Aliens the PLA will be screwed from superior airpower, if the ETs don't choose to blow us from orbit that is.

Lol I'm interested in what direction this thread will take.

Originally Posted by Maggern

As to the treatment of China, it was kinda stereotypical, but frankly max didn't speak very well of the west either. In his scenario, public lack of trust in the American government severly hinders the government's attempt to contain the plague early on, in the book said to be because the government had fooled the public so many times (clearly a hint towards Iraq and the war on terror). American corporations unscrupulously use the fear to make huge amounts of money for themselves while making the situation much worse.

It's still pretty stereotypical. Corporations are evil, but the American soldiers are brave and true, and the current president is a Great Man.

China changing government in western books is sometimes anti-China drivel, but in this book, so many countries completely change their nature and government, that i can be forgiven. As you mention yourself. I think China actually got a fair treatment. In the book China is the largest and most dynamic economy in the world. Even that is a concession for many western writers.

When did I mention any such thing? What I really couldn't stand was depicting the extent to which China was willing to go to cover up the plague, as if the CCP was some kind of secrecy-obsessed control freak, and the complete disregard for any strategic and tactical sense on the part of the Chinese leadership.

Anyone who actually knows Chinese society would realize that China is actually a pretty decentralized government system. The Chinese government doesn't keep half as many secrets as the US government.

The PLA also has a very strong historical record of adapting to changing methods of warfare, so the idea that it would simply throw human waves at zombies is simply ludicrous.

As to the PLA, I think that it would be one of the armies most suited to dealing with the zombie plague as presented in the book, if they knew what they were up against and had proper strategies for dealing with them. Max highlights how the super-technological armies of the west are completely ineffective against the zombies, and in the end has to opt for a pure infantry army armed with carbines.

PS: I didn't bother hiding any information. If you want to discuss the book, you have to mention stuff

Well, the PLA also has to deal with the fact that China is one of the most densely populated nation on earth. The civilian to military ratio in China is actually pretty low, I believe.

Originally Posted by solarz

Well, the PLA also has to deal with the fact that China is one of the most densely populated nation on earth. The civilian to military ratio in China is actually pretty low, I believe.

The dense population will probably work for the zombies, but I think most Chinese students go through some level of military training for uni, right? Either way it won't be hard for them to be trained en masse in how to use a Type 81 or 95 before sending them against the zombie horde. Food and ammo will be the limits.

Originally Posted by solarz

It's still pretty stereotypical. Corporations are evil, but the American soldiers are brave and true, and the current president is a Great Man.

Come on. In the first half of the book, the government is untrustworthy, ineffective and corrupt. The US Army tries to take a stance, everyone's full of testosterone and American chest-beating phrases, but then the whole thing soon collapses into desperation and panic, and the communication network of the military breaks down.

When did I mention any such thing? What I really couldn't stand was depicting the extent to which China was willing to go to cover up the plague, as if the CCP was some kind of secrecy-obsessed control freak, and the complete disregard for any strategic and tactical sense on the part of the Chinese leadership.

Well it's always possible to make wrong choices. And putting all resources in on crushing a plague that is about to wipe out your population before it spreads internationally seems like a logical choice. Of course Max takes it a few steps further. But hell, how do we know how any government would react if the whole country was about to be wiped out? Come on, we don't live in this world, we don't know what we'd do. And again Max doesn't speak well of any current government in the book.

The PLA also has a very strong historical record of adapting to changing methods of warfare, so the idea that it would simply throw human waves at zombies is simply ludicrous.

Well again, the most effective tactic in the book was simply arming a whole bunch of guys with simple rifles and have them pick off the zombies one by one. However, as you mention the sheer number of people in China simply made it impossible to outgun the zombies, and also because the strategy of sacrificing 99% of the country to have your back clear (as they eventually do in the book) wasn't employed yet, as it would surely only be chosen at the very last chance. Also, events transpired quickly. This wasn't just some foreign army with foreign tactics, it was a new species with new thought patterns, new tactics, and a completely different set of life. It would take time to figure out how to best battle this plague, all the while trying to organize oneself in the massive panic that would erupt locally in the civilian populace and the military itself.

Originally Posted by Maggern

Come on. In the first half of the book, the government is untrustworthy, ineffective and corrupt. The US Army tries to take a stance, everyone's full of testosterone and American chest-beating phrases, but then the whole thing soon collapses into desperation and panic, and the communication network of the military breaks down.



Well it's always possible to make wrong choices. And putting all resources in on crushing a plague that is about to wipe out your population before it spreads internationally seems like a logical choice. Of course Max takes it a few steps further. But hell, how do we know how any government would react if the whole country was about to be wiped out? Come on, we don't live in this world, we don't know what we'd do. And again Max doesn't speak well of any current government in the book.



Well again, the most effective tactic in the book was simply arming a whole bunch of guys with simple rifles and have them pick off the zombies one by one. However, as you mention the sheer number of people in China simply made it impossible to outgun the zombies, and also because the strategy of sacrificing 99% of the country to have your back clear (as they eventually do in the book) wasn't employed yet, as it would surely only be chosen at the very last chance. Also, events transpired quickly. This wasn't just some foreign army with foreign tactics, it was a new species with new thought patterns, new tactics, and a completely different set of life. It would take time to figure out how to best battle this plague, all the while trying to organize oneself in the massive panic that would erupt locally in the civilian populace and the military itself.

Thing is though that even the military personnel in the various sci-fi forums I've been to have been harshly criticizing the methods presented in the book, since it wouldn't really take that much to defeat a zombie threat.

Originally Posted by Maggern

Come on. In the first half of the book, the government is untrustworthy, ineffective and corrupt. The US Army tries to take a stance, everyone's full of testosterone and American chest-beating phrases, but then the whole thing soon collapses into desperation and panic, and the communication network of the military breaks down.

Well it's always possible to make wrong choices. And putting all resources in on crushing a plague that is about to wipe out your population before it spreads internationally seems like a logical choice. Of course Max takes it a few steps further. But hell, how do we know how any government would react if the whole country was about to be wiped out? Come on, we don't live in this world, we don't know what we'd do. And again Max doesn't speak well of any current government in the book.

Notice that I didn't say the book was biased, I said it was stereotyped. There's a difference.

What bothers me is that Brooks doesn't appear to have much knowledge about the cultures he writes about. Come on, katana-wielding Japanese warriors? How much more stereotypical can you get? Why doesn't China or Korea get any elite warriors? The american Alpha Teams: another stereotype.

In fact, the stereotypes begin from the first few pages of the book. Superstitious peasants and death temple curses? Does Brooks not know about the Cultural Revolution? Or the fact that so-called "death temples" are a dime-a-dozen in China? Why does he think Chinese farmers, who has been through Japanese occupation and Cultural Revolution, would act like some African native? (Do even African natives act that way?)

And apparently Brooks doesn't even know about the hukou system, otherwise he wouldn't claim that New Dachang didn't officially exist. It's not like those farmers were migrants!

Well again, the most effective tactic in the book was simply arming a whole bunch of guys with simple rifles and have them pick off the zombies one by one. However, as you mention the sheer number of people in China simply made it impossible to outgun the zombies, and also because the strategy of sacrificing 99% of the country to have your back clear (as they eventually do in the book) wasn't employed yet, as it would surely only be chosen at the very last chance. Also, events transpired quickly. This wasn't just some foreign army with foreign tactics, it was a new species with new thought patterns, new tactics, and a completely different set of life. It would take time to figure out how to best battle this plague, all the while trying to organize oneself in the massive panic that would erupt locally in the civilian populace and the military itself.

It's not exactly hard to analyze zombie thought patterns... The author obviously believes that the PLA combat doctrine is to simply drown their enemies in number, as revealed by the comment of "for the first time, China was in danger of being outnumbered".

The dense population will probably work for the zombies, but I think most Chinese students go through some level of military training for uni, right? Either way it won't be hard for them to be trained en masse in how to use a Type 81 or 95 before sending them against the zombie horde. Food and ammo will be the limits.

I think food will be the real limit. When ammo runs low, the PLA will start using hand-to-hand weapons. However, the real problem will be feeding all those survivors.

Civilians will be called into the fighting, much like they were during the anti-Japan war, but their roles will be mainly in logistics.

In the book, the US retreats to the west of the Rockies, to take advantage of the natural barrier. China actually has an excellent man-made barrier: the Great Wall. Since the major population centers are almost all south of the Great Wall, I see a retreat to the relatively less populated north.

Since there are also many mountains in China, I see groups of soldiers and civilians establishing isolated resistance pockets on top of mountains. Since many of those mountains have temples built into the most difficult to access parts, they would even have relatively good shelter.

Even in major population centers like Shanghai, there are advantages. The many high-rises provide excellent locations to defend against zombie hordes, especially since a lot of those residential buildings are equipped with sturdy anti-theft doors. In Beijing, the Forbidden Palace can also serve as an excellent defensive point.

Read you PM..jeez..

There's so many zombie/undead stuff out there now but if I recall correctly this is actually being made into a movie.

Originally Posted by bd popeye

Read you PM..jeez..

huh, i didn't even notice i had a pm. I blame the new layout.

Thanks!

Well, I just finished the book, and the ending was rather disappointing. The Battle of Hop was interesting, but that's the only part of the later chapters that stood out. It basically went from regrouping to mopping the continent up. Once the military changed tactics, it was a completely one-sided slaughter, or at least it felt that way.

Brooks' poor research and plays to stereotypes show up again. He suggests that the French were willing to sacrifice 15000 lives unnecessarily because they were tired of surrendering. He also suggests that Americans were more successful survivors because of their "individualist nature". Geeze...

Originally Posted by solarz

Well, I just finished the book, and the ending was rather disappointing. The Battle of Hop was interesting, but that's the only part of the later chapters that stood out. It basically went from regrouping to mopping the continent up. Once the military changed tactics, it was a completely one-sided slaughter, or at least it felt that way.

Brooks' poor research and plays to stereotypes show up again. He suggests that the French were willing to sacrifice 15000 lives unnecessarily because they were tired of surrendering. He also suggests that Americans were more successful survivors because of their "individualist nature". Geeze...

A mop-up does sound like the logical outcome (aside from total extermination of the human race), as the zombies don't evolve or change tactics, they can't adapt.

Well, you have your feelings from the book and I have mine. Max said himself that he spent years to do enough research to write the book, and frankly I think he stretches so many countries, systems and parts of life that no one man could write completely realistic on every area. He's just a writer after all. Optimally he would have lived in the countries he mentioned and learned their ways through study over the course of several years, as well as being a professional general, a medical scientist, a biologist, an economist and historian, but of course this is impossible for one man (unless he had plenty of time and was filthy rich).

About the stereotypes, remember the book is meant to be satirical.

In real life... one tank = win LOL.... seriously...

America would have a decided advantage with their gun culture. I wonder how many guys there are out there with their lmini armoury as seen seen in the film "Tremors"