J-20... The New Generation Fighter

Hui Tong admit that the second J20 prototype uses not only a chinese engine, but an improved version of FWS10. Fantastic news!! If they can test a new plane with an indigenous engine now, in 5-7 years (when the plane will be in mass production), probably they won't need 117S at all because they will mass produce a domestic engine. Maybe we can finally start to have faith in chinese aerospace industry. Let's consider were china was ten years ago and where is now, if this momentum in mainteined you can guess where it will be a decade from now!

PS People's daily comment (heading) on US-China relationship and China military development , title says all click here

I have a question on the plane wing: I've read that the wing surface is small, and the plane is very long, to facilitate supercruise. In theory these two aspect of J20 wouldn't reduce the stability of the plane at low speed? One of the strength of F22 in dogfight seems that is a plane that goes on stall rarely, maybe this is why J20 engineer opted for canards, to compensate this disavantage? Thx

Man the new J20 must be very huge...look at those people under her wing, looked so tiny...It's much larger than the J10 too.

Originally Posted by bladerunner

Being AWOL last year you probably missed the announcement of such a 4/5th gen program by a PLAAF General. He went on to think they could start to be inducted in 2018. So if we use the American F22 program as a guideline, logic dictates that this 4/5th gen plane would have to be making an appearance pretty soon. That is if it wasnt just "hot air" on the part of the General.

It would be unwise to use the F-22 program as a guideline -- the political, economic and requirements are way different for PLAAF and PRC. But even if we did use the F-22 as a guide, it doesn't mean J-20 necessarily has to make an "appearance" -- most likely its already had its first flight a few months ago.

The General did say it would enter service between 2017-2019. Do you also remember that CCTV later retracted the statement and that the 4th/5th generation fighter was really just an "upgraded J-10"? It obviously means that some in the PLAAF weren't very happy with the General's open-ness.

Why would a high ranking commander just let out hot air on state news on such an important project, with so many details...

Originally Posted by windracer

Man the new J20 must be very huge...look at those people under her wing, looked so tiny...It's much larger than the J10 too.

No it is not much larger than the J-10, as a matter of fact the aircraft is not even that large according to the estimated length.

Originally Posted by dexy-sexy

If it would be a programmed feature for landing than it wouldn't prevent it, and it would be easy for fbw to control pitch moment trough regulation of elevator deflection.

If there is actually such a feature, but it doesn't seem like the case. Recall the picture of the J-20 turning with the left rudder fully deflected. If there is a ground control law, the computer would have realized the aircraft is not flying and it would not needed to deflect the rudders at all. Also, watch videos of J-10 taxing and you will see the canards deflect to compensate for change in pitch-rate as the landing gears go over uneven surface. Again, if there is a ground feature programmed in, the computer would know that the aircraft is taxing and there would be no need to deflect the canards. Therefore, I highly suspect that the control law being used on the ground is the flight control law for the lowest speed.

Do not assume that flight computers have the same situation awareness as the pilot does. Think of these computers as calculators. Flight control laws are nothing more than implementation of mathematical equations that relate flight controls deflection to pilot's inputs. If you can't formulate the equations, you can't make the flight control laws.

Originally Posted by Quickie

It's still possible to maintain control of pitch by additionally using the canard or maybe thrust vectoring. How feasible would this be is the question.

Robustness comes first. Adding "useless" features complicates the software and reduce robustness, and is extremely frowned upon.

Originally Posted by bladerunner

@Assasins Mace

Thats right thats what members in this forum do when discussing some "hush hush" military hardware. It can be fun , so lighten up.

BtW Many forum members/ and international commentators are simply speculating because of the out of character handling of the publicity involving the progress of the J-20 by the officials. What they want to make of it, is purely up to them.

You could also look at it in another way. They are simply covering their a......, by not announcing it.
I believe that most members who had a interest in this plane genuinely believed in a impending test flight, infact I don't recall any dissenting opinion let alone yours, as they say its always easier to be smarter after the fact.

You mean the same people that people who like you discount as fanboys or the people who said that China would never develop a 5th gen fighter? Either way you discredit yourself using them. Anyone can come up with a conclusion first and then just only pick and choose what speculation that leads to that conclusion. The ones who should lighten up are the pride police getting their undies in a bunch at seeing all the euphoria over the J-20. I love reading about one poster over at another forum who said the euphoria was a sign of Chinese aggression. Or another wanted the US to not pay back China on US treasuries. For what? Did China start a war? No, just because China built a 5th gen fighter that everyone peeing in their skirts says is an inferior outdated design. If it's inferior and won't work, what's all the anger for? If all this euphoria is going to definitely turn to disappointment, it's only embarrassing for those in euphoria. Yet there seems to be anger from those that are skeptical. What's it all about is again the thought police are on patrol because no one can be happy without their permission. Who's the one that needs to lighten up?

Originally Posted by AssassinsMace

You mean the same people that people who like you discount as fanboys or the people who said that China would never develop a 5th gen fighter? Either way you discredit yourself using them. Anyone can come up with a conclusion first and then just only pick and choose what speculation that leads to that conclusion. The ones who should lighten up are the pride police getting their undies in a bunch at seeing all the euphoria over the J-20. I love reading about one poster over at another forum who said the euphoria was a sign of Chinese aggression. Or another wanted the US to not pay back China on US treasuries. For what? Did China start a war? No, just because China built a 5th gen fighter that everyone peeing in their skirts says is an inferior outdated design. If it's inferior and won't work, what's all the anger for? If all this euphoria is going to definitely turn to disappointment, it's only embarrassing for those in euphoria. Yet there seems to be anger from those that are skeptical. What's it all about is again the thought police are on patrol because no one can be happy without their permission. Who's the one that needs to lighten up?

The attitude of those people is funny. It is like someone who consistently did badly on his exam finally got a one hundred and everyone else ranting how the kid must've cheated to get 100. I think jealousy and fear are two of the primary motivations of those people. They are so accustomed to China being backwards that such news of China's progress makes them uneasy, even when China is giving those idiots a helping hand financially. It appears that time will be the only cure for those people.

I found this story on english.sina.com.sorry if it's a repost.

Rumored stealth jet undergoes tests: report

The rumored prototype of China's "J-20 stealth fighter jet" has created a stir over the nation's defensive advancements, but analysts suggest that any such program would simply reflect the country's industrial military progress.

Pictures of the alleged fourth-generation jet fighter, equivalent to a fifth-generation craft under Western classifications, have been circulating on the Internet since mid-December.

The US-based Aviation Week magazine reported Monday that the prototype was undergoing high-speed tests late last week at the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute's airfield in Sichuan Province.

Citing a picture taken by unknown sources, the report said that the J-20 resembles the shape of the US Air Force's F-22 Raptor and "would facilitate loading larger weapons" than the US jet due to a higher ground clearance.

However, the report said engine development was still a problem, adding that it is still too early to tell whether the J-20 is a true prototype or intended to simply demonstrate technology.

The Moscow-based RIA Novosti News Agency reported earlier that the J-20 could use the indigenous Shenyang WS-10 engine, which is inferior to Russian-made engines.

Chinese authorities have not commented on the latest speculations, but He Weirong, deputy commander of the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), told China Central Television a year ago that the country was "making progress in developing a fourth-generation fighter jet."

Shortly after his statement, the PLAAF clarified that the aircraft He referred to was actually an upgrade of the third-generation J-10 that possesses some fourth-generation features such as stealth and super-cruise ca-pabilities.

"If the development of the J-20 is true, it will be another reflection of China's fast industrial advancement, which has already been highlighted by high-speed railways and space exploration," Song Xiaojun, a Beijing-based military expert, told the Global Times. "Besides the global, military impact, the rumored J-20 also bears political significance because it represents China's growing power."

He disagreed with some media reports that China is becoming aggressive militarily.

"The country's increasing military strength matches its economic growth," Song added.

"Fifth generation" is a term used by US officials to described the most advanced fighter jets that incorporate technologies such as all aspects of stealth, even when armed, as well as possess a low probability of radar intercept and highly integrated computer systems.

Under this classification, the US is the only country in the world that has combat-ready, fifth-generation aircraft, namely the F-22 and the F-35 Lightning II models.

Russia's fifth-generation fighter jet, the T-50, made its debut in January 2010 but has not been equipped by the air force.

In December, Moscow and New Delhi reached a raft of defense and nuclear deals potentially worth billions of dollars, including joint design and development of fifth-generation fighter aircraft based on the T-50.

It took 15 years for the US military to develop the F-22, which costs around $150 million per unit. However, its production was terminated after President Barack Obama signed the country's 2010 de-fense bill that included huge spending cuts.

In promoting the defense bill, US Defense Secretary Robert Gates said in 2009 that China "is projected to have no fifth-generation aircraft by 2020" and only a "handful" by 2025, Reuters reported.

Li Daguang, a military expert at the PLA National Defense University, told the Global Times that Gates' prediction was overly optimistic.

"The recent rumor about the J-20 is pure speculation," he said. "The F-22 is an offensive weapon that fits Washington's global strategy. China's defense development is self-defensive in nature and does not require a fighter jet of that caliber.

"Furthermore, if China does want a fourth-generation fighter jet, it needs to build a large number of them in order to affect the regional military balance. The US has capped its number of F-22s at 187. How many should China build?"

Li also noted that China's aviation technology is still far away from competing with Western countries, especially the US.

"Some Western media are more optimistic than Gates, and than the Chinese people," he said. "They've hyped the issue because they want to."

Originally Posted by Krabat1976

Hui Tong admit that the second J20 prototype uses not only a chinese engine, but an improved version of FWS10.

That is HUGE news. And a confirmation of speculation here on this thread. FWS10A is ready. We see it first not on the J-10 but on the J-20.

J-20 was never going to use 117S. That was silly reporting by Janes. Maya confirmed it will use FWS10A before WS-15 is ready.

Originally Posted by AssassinsMace

When they stop thinking the media is the oracle of the truth...

Here is a refreshing media viewpoint:

Comment: World-class military not exclusive luxury

The rumored Chinese stealth jet, or "aircraft-carrier killer," has been making headlines in the US. China-US relations, that seemed to warm around the New Year, now face a new wall.

There are numerous walls between the two powers. Some would try to help the two sides negotiate a path between the walls, while others attempt to bring the two to a dead end.

It is both natural and unnatural for the US to be concerned about China developing new weapons. Most powers wish that their superiority will last forever. China is growing up fast, and the US military edge over China is unavoidably shrinking.

Whether the reported new weapons are true or not, in the long run, China will own first-class weapons that are capable of competing with the US war machine. But owning these weapons does not necessarily mean China will attack the US.

The outcry among US media reflects the permeating surprise over China's military progress. This gap of expectation and reality is dangerous for Sino-US relations, and is worth the attention of both Beijing and Washington.

Some are even trying to estimate at what pace China's development, especially military progress, would be seen as tolerable for American society. Should China surpass this theoretical threshold, the danger could then be more easily ascertained.

Apparently, the US is not ready to treat China as a major power. They cannot accept the fact that China will sooner or later possess a first-class military. They are too used to the old power structure, in which China and other developing countries have long been treated unfairly.

Some American decision-makers swear by the role of aircraft carriers in the western Pacific, as if a few of these vessels could prevent the slumbering giant from waking.

China now faces a dilemma. Raising its voices in certain international affairs, it risks being labeled as tough or overly assertive. But China can no longer forego its own basic rights.

It will be a painful procedure. There will be many discussions about China's growing military power, that may even spiral into protest and criticism.

China does not need to be surprised by these events.

Similar to our adaptation to increasing frictions with Western countries, the older powers will also acclimatize to China's rise.

Comment: World-class military not exclusive luxury - People's Daily Online

Very very bold. Compares the West's rude awakening that they are not the center of the world anymore with China's rude awakening in the First Opium War.

Originally Posted by KYli

Courtesy of hhg of CDF

WOW, just WOW

It is a BIG bird. I estimate its size at a min of 22 meters.

Originally Posted by Roger604

That is HUGE news. And a confirmation of speculation here on this thread. FWS10A is ready. We see it first not on the J-10 but on the J-20.

J-20 was never going to use 117S. That was silly reporting by Janes. Maya confirmed it will use FWS10A before WS-15 is ready.

It is impressive if the engine is an improved WS-10A, but I imagine many challenges remain.
I'm going to be slightly sceptical for the moment, just to be safe. I've learnt never to take anything for granted in Chinese engine development...


Also, one of the 2001 prototypes could very well be using 117S and the other is using the improved Taihang.