J-20... The New Generation Fighter

I unintentionallly confused things by using the word "ineffective" instead of "effective" in my previous post. My bad.

Originally Posted by Ambivalent

The F-15 is indeed a superb bomber. It replaced the F-111 for the USAF. The F-22 is a bomber as well, able to carry a pair of JDAM's internally and more on wing stations if stealth is not required. The bomb load of an F-15 dwarfs that of a WWII "heavy" bomber.
I would be extremely surprised if this new fighter, if it's real, is not also a bomber. The roles of fighter and bomber are hardly mutually exclusive.

By that lose definition, any military aircraft is a bomber. Surely you can roll dumb bombs out the end of a C-17? So, for classifying an aircraft, I think it is more important to look at what primary objective engineers have in mind when they designed the aircraft.

I think the canards in the Su-33 got their place because it was the simplest way of integrating them into the structure. While it may not be the most effective layout, it was the easiest option to just stick them to the lerx, wich happened to already be in plane with the wing. It's enough of additional lift producing surfaces to make carrier ops safe.
On the J-20 I believe they took a certain compromise in putting at least the actuators / mounts into the same plane as the main wing for frontal RCS reasons, while the canards are dihedral to get the vortices above the wing. The EF anhedral canards actually also make the tips almost end in plane with the main wing as well, contrary to Rafale or Gripen.
On conventional layouts, like the Raptor the complete controll surface, including mounts / actuators is hidden behind the main wing, contrary to canards, wich probably is another small issue for forntal RCS only. From the top / bottom / side it doesn't really matter though, I'd guess.

Role wise, somewhere else I came across the idea that the J-20 is another asset of China's area denial strategy. Even if it's just an interceptor, it will be able to deny fighting space for other forces, as it's presence must always be assumed.
While this is probably not the long term goal designers had in mind, I think the idea is a good starting point and a good initial capability for PLAAF. I then think later upgrades can focus more on the air superiority and then strike role.
After a few days, the J-20 looks bigger than it actually is, although it's still a rather big plane. But I think now it's a bit smaller than a Flanker, and it also looks really sleak to me. So I think it won't actually carry that much A-G ammo. Maybe a few precision weapons to attack high value targets, but nothing in quantity or AShM wise.

I moved the last two post in this thread to the link below.

J-20...The New Generation Fighter

bd popeye super moderator

Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster

Here's another clumsy swing at trying interrupt China military aviation capabilities and the J-20 by 'professional journalists', this week, from flightglobal

Boeing 747 and Airbus A380 Aircraft News from Flightglobal

And to think Flight Global's coverage of the Zhuhai airshow wasn't too bad... This article shows quite a bit of unprofessionalism tut tut.

Hi Guys,

I am back!!! Missed you guys so much!!! I'd been so busy with work in the past 5-6 months (trying to get a paper out before a competing lab does).

Any way, I am very excited about the J-20 news. It looks awesome.

Originally Posted by Roger604

I think it's clear that PLAAF structure will undergo a very dramatic shift in the next 5 years.

I don't think J-10B will make it into service. Instead, the J-20 program (5th generation multirole fighter) is moving much faster than expected. I think J-20 will enter service with FWS10A engines by 2013 (possibly even earlier in late 2012). It appears the Central Military Commission wants the J-20 ready fast for patrol of South China Sea. Anti-ship will be a very important mission for J-20.

I think we will still need J-10B. Because I think China will apply the same the Hi/Lo structure to its AF as the US and J-20 is definitely the high end of things, I think they will need J-10B as the low end backbone of the China AF. I don't think any nation can afford to make F-22/J-20 type of fighters as their backbone fighter. It's financially impossible.

Also, the 2012/2013 data is a little to ambitious. It's already 2011 and they haven't even flown the plane yet. They still need to spend some quality time to get the plane certified, etc...

Originally Posted by Roger604

That is why SAC will be making the stealthy flanker J-16. It will be like a Su-35BM with RCS reduction. So, J-11B / J-11BS series production may be very short (stopping before 2013 probably). The J-20 can actually take over most of its role but flankers are obviously cheaper.

Since I've been away for quite a while, I am a little confused of the designation of J-16. This is the first time I've heard it. I thought J-15 was the new conventional carrier-born fighter. So what is J-16 and why is China developing J-16 and J-20 at the same time?

Originally Posted by Roger604

2012 Stealthy flanker J-16 enters service, J-11B / J-11BS stop production, super-cheap version of JF-17 enters service to replace old JH7, J-7, J-8, Q-5

2013 J-20 multirole enters service, J-10 stop production

2015 J-20 gets upgrade using WS-15, next generation heavy fighter-bomber enters service (might be CAC or SAC), J-16 stops production

2017 CAC air superiority fighter enters service with WS-15

Then by 2020 PLAAF will have large numbers of 5th generation in multirole, air superiority and heavy fighter-bombers. The remaining force is JF-17 for numbers plus legacy J-10s, J-11B / J-11BS / J-16.

Again, a little too ambitious to me. You mentioned China will stop making J-10 in 2013 and stop making J-16 in 2015. That's only 3 years after it enters service, according your ambitious prediction. Why would you think China would keep stopping the production of a good plane, like J-10 and J-16? A good plane can be production for a long time.

Originally Posted by 70092

According to Andrei Pinkov, the engines installed on J-20 are definitely not from Russia, he swear this fact by saying he "know the Russian engines as clear as he know his guts".

Kanwa Daily News

Seem few people would argue that the recent photos of J-20 are fake. Now, assume that it is true. Because the photos are taken from many different angles that they are hardly be PS. But... 1. the plane seem to be too big 2. too long 3. too narrow.

Originally Posted by SteelBird

Seem few people would argue that the recent photos of J-20 are fake. Now, assume that it is true. Because the photos are taken from many different angles that they are hardly be PS. But... 1. the plane seem to be too big 2. too long 3. too narrow.

It should be around 20.5 meter long, not too long, considering Su-27 has a length of 22 meter.

And for being narrow, its because the supercrusie requirement, bascially long and narrow body/wing span are optimised against fighter at supersonic, see how F-22 also has a very narrow body.

Wide and "sparse" body will creat lots of drag for the fighters at supersonic phase, such kind of airframes, however, will give the fighter more lifting-ratio at sub-sonic phase, thus longer ferry range.

Originally Posted by SteelBird

Seem few people would argue that the recent photos of J-20 are fake. Now, assume that it is true. Because the photos are taken from many different angles that they are hardly be PS. But... 1. the plane seem to be too big 2. too long 3. too narrow.

Probably the problem of angle, but things would clear out once it takes to the sky, then the logic of its arrangement will be clear.

But my 2 cents to its size would be:
1. Engine-something as compact yet as powerful the West can have still out of reach for China
2. Weapon stores-if to utilize the current arsenal and not to wait for "J-20 tailored" versions, the weapon bays have to be of certain size...remember F-22's can't use the full arsenals, and even the AMRAAM have to develop a version that can fit inside?

Still, the change of attitude by Kanwa is rather...unexpected, they're known to be China-bashing, after all.

Originally Posted by KYli

A rough translation of previous article.
Andrei Chang on "the fourth generation fighter with Chinese characteristics"

Today, Kanwa founder Andrei Chang said that the Factory 132 in Chengdu debut a four generations aircraft in December is real. He said this time the propaganda department of China Aviation Industry Group for this aircraft did not appear to be strictly controlled.

Andrei Chang said that this is a very mature and creative design, Chengdu 132 is a successful plant with a real strength, the winner should not be criticized (Stalin).

Andrei Chang believed the emergence of four generations fighter would bring a complete end to imitation of Chinese military aircraft industrial era. China would become one of the important pole of the world's aviation industry. He also again severely criticized Shenyang Aircraft Corporation cloning Su33 and Su27UBK and believed Shenyang Aircraft Corporation has the need to learn from Chengdu. "The former approach, resulting in a very bad influence on international relations, ruin the already fragile Russian-Chinese military cooperation, and is not necessary." Andrei Chang said.

Chengdu four generations aircraft has all moving vertical tail, section of the all movable acting delta wings, edge design, provide China's fourth generation aircraft with unprecedented maneuvering, especially lateral maneuvering, low maneuvering and to compensate for its inadequate vector propulsion technology. But the delta wing would sacrifice a certain degree of stealth, in spite of this 132 plants is pragmatic, when China stealth materials technology does not reach the level of F22, in order to make some kind of compensation for the high maneuvering, such a design is reasonable. " Andrei Chang said.

Andrei Chang said that it is worth noting that the aircraft is using engine that made in China, there is no installation of vectoring nozzle, this is a recognized proof of WS10 is accepted. It is also a pioneering undertaking in the history of international aviation, as a new aircraft in the flight test phase used a new engine.

Andrei Chang said that the large-scale body design and built-in internal bay are needed, so that J20 is actually a concept of multi-role fighter. After the installation of air refueling, the ability to launch long-range cruise missiles on Guam. At the same time when the next phase installation of large thrust engine, the rear fuselage needs to be properly expanded to accommodate more fans, so this design has some valid.

But Andrei Chang said that for the matter of stealth or the cruising speed, this aircraft does not meet the four generations of US-Russian aircraft and it can not reach the standard of four-generation fighter, it is a typical four generations fighter "with Chinese characteristics". In accordance with J20's empty weight and engine with after burn, the current J20 is incapable to reach supersonic cruise capability. It has no vector propulsion technology. With this alone, this aircraft does not meet the standard of the West and Russian four generations fighter. Furthermore, phased array radar development still requires at least 7-8 years. At the trial flights J20 aircraft is not equipped vector forward nozzle.

However, Andrei Chang said that within 10-15 years after the implementation of WS15 with an 15,000 kg large turbofan engines(the key is material) and active phased array radar, J20 will meet the standard of the Russia and the U.S. to become a fully capable four generations aircraft or even better in maneuvering.

Wow this plane is pretty disappointing. No thrust vectoring, no phased array radar and no supercruise?

Originally Posted by defaultuser1

Wow this plane is pretty disappointing. No thrust vectoring, no phased array radar and no supercruise?

I hope you have read through the rest of this forum thread... anyway, there are something that is quite puzzling on what this Andrei Chang had pointed out that is questionable.

But Andrei Chang said that for the matter of stealth or the cruising speed, this aircraft does not meet the four generations of US-Russian aircraft and it can not reach the standard of four-generation fighter, it is a typical four generations fighter "with Chinese characteristics". In accordance with J20's empty weight and engine with after burn, the current J20 is incapable to reach supersonic cruise capability. It has no vector propulsion technology. With this alone, this aircraft does not meet the standard of the West and Russian four generations fighter. Furthermore, phased array radar development still requires at least 7-8 years. At the trial flights J20 aircraft is not equipped vector forward nozzle.

The aircraft is just there when the photographs are being taken. And I believe Taxi run had been conducted. Other than that, the aircraft was pretty much on ground. How in the world would this Andrei Chang know that this aircraft lack of supercruise?

Plus did this analysis had any assess into the aircraft? If not how he know what type of radar was used and what type of radar that it did not use. And for that... how would he know if the aircraft is inferior when compared to the US and Russia?

What we are seeing is a prototype... station on ground... and then a taxi run, and that was about all. And suddenly this analysis could see so much into the entire project, as if he is part of the design team... highly questionable.

China's New Stealth Fighter Is Revealed - WSJ.com

WSJ reported this earlier today and then added the 2 pics later...

The mainstream medias are reporting J20 now.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...d82c618d05.1f1

China completes stealth fighter prototype

(AFP) – 1 hour ago

BEIJING — China appears to have completed a prototype of its first known stealth fighter, reports said Wednesday, highlighting Beijing's military modernisation days ahead of a visit by the US defence secretary.

Originally Posted by cn_habs

China's New Stealth Fighter Is Revealed - WSJ.com

WSJ reported this earlier today and then added the 2 pics later...

The embeded video is obviously to help people who don't follow defence news or developments really but its quite hilarious. It's all CHINA MILITARY BUILD UP. CHINA THREATENING ASIAN STABILITY. CHINA WILL USE THIS TO THREATEN ITS NEIGHBOURS. BE AFRAID. The written article itself is fine though which makes the contrast all the more strange.