Forced Abortion in China

My biggest problem with this sort of story is that when they are presented in the Western media, they are presented in such a monochrome and two dimensional manner. There is very little background to the actual story and even less cultural background, against which the basic assumptions, expectations and understandings of the principal participants are explained to the global public.

I think people could do a lot worse than to read Peter Lee's article on the event. I find Peter Lee one of the few truly objective and relatively impartial writers on the PRC.

Asia Times Online :: China's addiction to birth-planning
China's addiction to birth planning

He not only describes the background to the story, but also how it fits into the social fabric of Chinese Society and the Social Policy Infrastructure of China's Family Planning Policy.

In short, he concluded that the story was an unfortunate misalignment of a young couple trying to "game" the family planning system, at a time when the local office for same, was under pressure from above over long term under performance and general slackness.

As for the angry reaction from some other residents of the couples town?
Just as in any other country, If you try and game the system and lose and then make a loud noise and seem to be rewarded for it, those that have played and paid by the rules will be mightily upset with you.

I agree with the above, the way the story is put out on Western media outlets is unclear and clearly biased toward China. Just after this abortion story on American news outlets, is followed by a story of how Chinese families eat the placenta of newborns as it is a ancient tradition. This is obviously not true and I would consider it offensive to Chinese people.
Furthermore, sh!t happens in every country. Social problems are common in bigger countries with large populations.

Thanks sampanviking, your reply is one of the reasons I like this forum.

Originally Posted by SampanViking

My biggest problem with this sort of story is that when they are presented in the Western media, they are presented in such a monochrome and two dimensional manner. There is very little background to the actual story and even less cultural background, against which the basic assumptions, expectations and understandings of the principal participants are explained to the global public.

I think people could do a lot worse than to read Peter Lee's article on the event. I find Peter Lee one of the few truly objective and relatively impartial writers on the PRC.

Asia Times Online :: China's addiction to birth-planning
China's addiction to birth planning

He not only describes the background to the story, but also how it fits into the social fabric of Chinese Society and the Social Policy Infrastructure of China's Family Planning Policy.

In short, he concluded that the story was an unfortunate misalignment of a young couple trying to "game" the family planning system, at a time when the local office for same, was under pressure from above over long term under performance and general slackness.

As for the angry reaction from some other residents of the couples town?
Just as in any other country, If you try and game the system and lose and then make a loud noise and seem to be rewarded for it, those that have played and paid by the rules will be mightily upset with you.

If an article comes from the West, I take it in with a whole bottle of salt while I look for a Chinese-written equivalent that's at least written from Hong Kong. Not that I'm saying that if it's from HK then it's flawless, but it's lesser of the evils compared to stories written in Taiwan(anti-China), the West(anti-China), and China(pro-China. Neither of the 3 are acceptable, and HK won't be too much better neither..but at least not as extreme as the former 3.
As for the article I pulled out, I didn't even bother to read it - I just slapped something on to go along with this thread so at least there's a story to originate from. I originally read of this incident from the Ming Pao, which is already a better paper compared to many others. (Sing Tao is ok, but Apple is garbage). In this case, I apologize, although my point was actually referring to a story that had been quite a storm already as of lately.

As for your comments regarding those reactions, I agree with you. They're like the Chinese equivalent of red-necks, and they piss me off because it's these people who are part of the effort in stalling China from being better. Although these people may still be nice people if you meet them, yet these people are ones who are unfit for civil service where integrity, objectivity, and fairness is at stake

Perhaps one needs to ask: How many millions population China has produced less since they adopted the one-child policy?

I personally think it is about time to allow for two children per family. Might as well as allow it officially when there are so many people ready to bypass the system any ways.

This comes to the topic of population control. It's not the responsibility of any single nation, in fact, it's the responsibility of the whole world. I read a book that the earth can afford to raise at a maximum of 10 billions people, now we've got 6 billions and is growing fast. China and India and so on, those have the largest population should take the most responsibility to have their population control. A few day ago, there was a report on the web that the Indonesian government has decided that Tuesday will be rice diet day because the nation has lack land to produce enough rice to feed their people.

Sam pretty much spoke my thoughts.
These couple cannot even afford a small fine, how are they going to provide adequately for the children?

If any western countries wishes to take in people who want to have more kids than they can afford and be a burden to society, China can satisfy the demand, all they have to do is ask.

The problem is that poor families/countries tend to have more children but rich families/countries tend to have less children, it is inversely correlated with amount of education. So basically, unchecked population growth leads to a larger poor population and a dramatic increase in population in poorer countries. Countries like Bangladesh and smaller African countries have doubled and even tripped their population in 10 years yet Japan is expect to have a huge drop in population by 10 years.
IMO, I think population control is right to an extent.

Originally Posted by muddie

The problem is that poor families/countries tend to have more children but rich families/countries tend to have less children, it is inversely correlated with amount of education. So basically, unchecked population growth leads to a larger poor population and a dramatic increase in population in poorer countries. Countries like Bangladesh and smaller African countries have doubled and even tripped their population in 10 years yet Japan is expect to have a huge drop in population by 10 years.
IMO, I think population control is right to an extent.

what about per capita energy use? compare the per capita energy use of countries like Canada, Qatar, etc. and compare them to countries even like Portugal, which is a developed country, the differences are staggering. Then compare Portugal to African countries, the difference is even bigger.

I wouldnt think 100,000 yuan=$NZ20.000=$US16000 a small fine.On a comprable level someone in America would be paying $100000 fine.
The story in our newspaper says it doesnt just stop there, as the child ibecomes very much a second class citizen and denied the privileges of free state provided schooling etc.

While I dont have any problem with a state endorsed voluntary abortion in the earl stages, 7-8 months into ones pregnancy really does become murder.

That's very interesting information.

2 children per woman seem reasonable in order to have a population with only a slight decline in theory. In practice if a system is gamed with a one child policy, it will be gamed with a 2 children policy, leading to effectively 3 instead 2 children.
Why do the poorer population parts breed and the richer ones are not capable of sustaining their numbers?

Wealth is not a goal if humanity does not survive. A human population that is not capable of sustaining their numbers is ill one way or another (the industrialized West qualifies as ill). A population that breeds into a Malthusian catastrophy is also ill, because they lack the ability to enact growth control based on conclusions about the future.
Population development control is a mechanism of a healthy society with sustainment and growth adapted to the commonly available means. A problem is the longterm static state of technological development that enables to foster this mindset in a society that feels to have a good predictability of their future.
Chinese one child policy seems to be rather enforced and does contain some leeway for a flexible two child reality. The outcome is a higher investment capability per child for success and a corresponding higher earning capability.

Many human societies have developed a good breeding concept, the deviations are usually signs of upcoming deep changes and corresponding insecurity about investment choices among males and females. The current wealthy class is most affected by perceived insecurity. Often they are clinging unto the wealth that is seen as highly threatened by having a rather normal divorce with offspring due to current interpretations of laws. For well-educated women the choice is furthermore between their dreams of being someone respected instead of a simple housewife. The housewife role is seen as a pastime of leisure, requiring no real qualification, and leaving them at the whimps of a man they turn into their patriarch by losing their economic independence and much of their negotiation capability within the relationship. The seemingly only solution worldwide for a society is to limit offspring to the poorer class that has less qualms about adverse effects on their wealth.