Fascinating Fact about American History

It's debatable how much of that is true and this has nothing to do with china at all, therefore wherever this thread belongs, it's definitely not the Chinese Military History section

Originally Posted by T-U-P

It's debatable how much of that is true and this has nothing to do with china at all, therefore wherever this thread belongs, it's definitely not the Chinese Military History section

Perhaps, but by posting it here, I'm hoping to keep the issue focused on history and away from politics.

As for how much it is true, a quick google will reveal that there is a lot of evidence for the plague theory.

You mean smallpox? Isn't this common knowledge?

Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice

You mean smallpox? Isn't this common knowledge?

I guess I had always been under the impression that the North American continent was a pristine, sparsely populated wilderness before the arrival of Columbus, and that the smallpox plague happened *during* the European conquest of the Natives.

Originally Posted by solarz

6 Ridiculous Lies You Believe About the Founding of America | Cracked.com

Now normally I wouldn't use cracked.com as a source about historical knowledge, but this article is a fascinating read and references several sources.

The most fascinating thing I took away from that article is this: the European Civilization in the Americas was founded on the remains of a post-apocalyptic Native American civilization!

I've never known before that the Americas were densely populated before the arrival of the Columbus expedition, but it does explain quite a few things.

For example, the Vikings, the fiercest warriors of Europe, got their butts kicked when they tried to settle in North America. How, then, did 16th and 17th century Europeans, when firearms weren't all that more effective than archery, manage to wipe out the Natives?

Apparently, the Europeans brought over a plague that wiped out over 90% of the Native population. 90%! That's truly post-apocalyptic stuff right there!

So the Sioux, Cheyenne, Lakotans, Mohawks and Iroquois... those fierce tribes weren't the real Native civilizations of North America. Those were the surviving remnants of a civilization wiped out by an apocalyptic event!

The article raises another good point. American settlers tend to have a strangely frequent number of doomsday cults. Could this be the echoes of the actual doomsday experienced by the Natives?

Oh you got that right, it has been estimated that before Europe found the Americans, it had upwards of 100 million populations. Another commonly accepted imagine with Native American is their horse riding skills, but the thing is America didn't even had horse at all, they were all brought over by Europeans. So the tribes that we have in our mind were totally not like their ancestors of few hundreds years ago, as you said, they maybe organizations from the ruins of much larger organizations.

Another thing about the 100 million population distribution, most of the population were concentration in Mexico, the civilizations in the America plains was actually somewhat spare and disorganized, this is not to say they were primitive people they still had strong social organizations, but compare to their neighbor in the South, they were, the civilization in Mexico was just as culturally rich as their contemporary Europeans, in Mexico city it even had population as much as half million people.

Most of the Native Americans death was attributed by the smallpox, but even so when you look at the numbers the survivors would still largely outnumbered the European immigrants, if you take the fact that when 90% of your friends in the same village died, your tribe will lose it is cohesion, most survivors would be very weak, and would not know where to organize together to get back on their feet, so a lot of them died due to starvation and exposure, I remember that the British settlers would often come across villages full of skeleton and bones, and they would thanks god for clearing the land for them.

Another problem with Native Americans is that until the very end, they still have this concept that hold different tribe identity very strongly, they never seem themselves as one races to unite together to fight the invaders, they still fight among each other and they even see the Europeans themselves just as another tribes. But the Europeans of course made so such mistake, that is why you would often hear stories of Europeans helping one tribes to kill another tribe, and later they would massacre the tribes they were allied with, and continue the process over and over again.

I hate to get political, but this is where I like the Chinese civilization, I think the people from Northern China and South are more genetically different than Russian and British, but almost all the Chinese no matter where they are from, still held their identity as one people, this gives them strength.

It's a good read and would probably make an interesting movie. They just wouldn't make it in the US. Jesus Christ is/was portrayed as blue-eyed blond hair. Or look at how Chinese history starts with communism. Yeah they don't want to look at China before communism. Plenty of disinformation in history. I've heard figures that 75 million Native Americans were slaughtered since Europeans arrived. Some say 200 million African slaves died during the journey across the middle passage. I guess it depends on what you want to believe just like how they say Mao killed more people than Hitler and Stalin. Yeah they don't tell you the people they refer to died more from bad policies that resulted in starvation and not from someone actually directly killing them. But they leave that fact out just to make it that Mao was worse. By that logic we can say communism rose from Western imperialism. So wouldn't those figures they throw out there actually are their responsibility? When I was a kid I was taught that Western countries invented everything. Today some people still believe that.

Originally Posted by AssassinsMace

It's a good read and would probably make an interesting movie. They just wouldn't make it in the US. Jesus Christ is/was portrayed as blue-eyed blond hair. Or look at how Chinese history starts with communism. Yeah they don't want to look at China before communism. Plenty of disinformation in history. I've heard figures that 75 million Native Americans were slaughtered since Europeans arrived. Some say 200 million African slaves died during the journey across the middle passage. I guess it depends on what you want to believe just like how they say Mao killed more people than Hitler and Stalin. Yeah they don't tell you the people they refer to died more from bad policies that resulted in starvation and not from someone actually directly killing them. But they leave that fact out just to make it that Mao was worse. By that logic we can say communism rose from Western imperialism. So wouldn't those figures they throw out there actually are their responsibility? When I was a kid I was taught that Western countries invented everything. Today some people still believe that.

Agree with most of what you said, but what killed most of Native Americans were by smallpox rather than actual killings. However the survivor was not exactly treated by the Europeans/Americans with red carpets either.

Another thing that I find fascinating is the role of nature in this tragedy. I think this is a brutal reminder that mankind, for all its conceit, is still just a natural creature. In fact, if we accept the plague theory, then the European colonization of the Americas looks less like a human conquest, and more like a foreign "species" out-competing a native "species".

This is a pretty complex matter. I have to dig in my memory for what I am writing here because I don't want to spend time reading tonight.
We know about the demise of some earlier civilizations. The classical Maya civilization disappeared around AD 800 when it was hit by drought against which their high population could not be protected. The Pueblo culture of New Mexico disappeared about AD 1400 also because of drought. Phoenix was built on the site of a town that was deserted then. In IIRC Ohio a town has been found that had around AD 1000 as many inhabitants as London at the time. They imported leaves over a very considerable distance ( I read a few months ago in an American newspaper ) to make a black caffeinated drink. That too had disappeared by AD 1400.
The Vikings, living in a relatively cold country side, were pretty healthy and probably didn't introduce any disease. Columbus and his men came from Mediterranean towns and cities and brought plenty. It seems the children diseases are the most dangerous. When Russian fur traders started frequenting Siberia in the 16th and 17th century they brought the villagers these diseases from which the children recovered but which were deadly to many of the parents. When a long time later the next fur trader appeared the grandparents were safe, the children recovered and the parents died. The Siberian tribes only started to grow again after two centuries of decline when the Russians came often enough to infect all the children, in the 19th century. So the probability is that measles and other child diseases will have made most victims. When De Soto travelled from Florida to Mexico in the 1540's he saw in what is now the Southern US a well populated country but was told that the population had much declined over the last twenty years.
Spanyards descending the Amazon in the middle of the 16th century reported seeing large towns along the river. When the Portuguese came there a century later they saw just jungle and it was thought by some that the Spanyards might have been inspired by alcohol or whatever. An American archeologist, Anna Roosevelt, went looking some thirty or forty years ago and has since found plenty of places with black earth containing charcoal, pottery shards and other remains. The jungle had been housing many people using perhaps similar means as the Maya used in Guatemala.
In South Eastern Brazil and in Bolivia are plains with a pattern of low hills with flat tops. The hills are artificial and served for people to live on in the rainy season and catch fish while keeping enough water to grow crops in the dry. Some people are trying to recreate this way of living. These South American cultures must have been destroyed by diseases without the Spanyards or the Portuguese hearing about it.
In short Columbus did probably much more damage than we can as yet determine, but what we know already is horrific.

Originally Posted by solarz

Perhaps, but by posting it here, I'm hoping to keep the issue focused on history and away from politics.

As for how much it is true, a quick google will reveal that there is a lot of evidence for the plague theory.

Originally Posted by jackliu

I hate to get political, but this is where I like the Chinese civilization, I think the people from Northern China and South are more genetically different than Russian and British, but almost all the Chinese no matter where they are from, still held their identity as one people, this gives them strength.

Originally Posted by AssassinsMace

They just wouldn't make it in the US. Jesus Christ is/was portrayed as blue-eyed blond hair. Or look at how Chinese history starts with communism. Yeah they don't want to look at China before communism. Plenty of disinformation in history. I've heard figures that 75 million Native Americans were slaughtered since Europeans arrived. Some say 200 million African slaves died during the journey across the middle passage. I guess it depends on what you want to believe just like how they say Mao killed more people than Hitler and Stalin. Yeah they don't tell you the people they refer to died more from bad policies that resulted in starvation and not from someone actually directly killing them. But they leave that fact out just to make it that Mao was worse. By that logic we can say communism rose from Western imperialism. So wouldn't those figures they throw out there actually are their responsibility? When I was a kid I was taught that Western countries invented everything. Today some people still believe that.

Sorry solarz, looks like it was futile.

Originally Posted by icbeodragon

Sorry solarz, looks like it was futile.

Sorry icbeodragon, but I don't think solarz have a problem with those posts, however now that you are here.... this trend will get ruined in no time.

Originally Posted by solarz

Another thing that I find fascinating is the role of nature in this tragedy. I think this is a brutal reminder that mankind, for all its conceit, is still just a natural creature. In fact, if we accept the plague theory, then the European colonization of the Americas looks less like a human conquest, and more like a foreign "species" out-competing a native "species".

that's the story of mankind isn't it?

There are some interesting facts that I didn't know before, like a native American city surpassing the size of London or the fascinating history of Squanto.

I'd like to think the plague being the main driver of the depopulation of the Americas (couldn't recall if it was Smallpox though) is a relatively well known fact when it comes to High School and above.

Originally Posted by jackliu

Sorry icbeodragon, but I don't think solarz have a problem with those posts, however now that you are here.... this trend will get ruined in no time.

Maybe through other's efforts because of an intolerance for diverging views and cultures. I on the other hand will try to stick on topic as much as possible.

Though I say that its not like i'm going to be posting much, I hold respect for what solarz was trying to do and am saddened when current day viewpoints and politics colors the perception of the past.

double post

Originally Posted by icbeodragon

that's the story of mankind isn't it?

There are some interesting facts that I didn't know before, like a native American city surpassing the size of London or the fascinating history of Squanto.

I'd like to think the plague being the main driver of the depopulation of the Americas (couldn't recall if it was Smallpox though) is a relatively well known fact when it comes to High School and above.

The central American civilization's culture sophistication was by no means less complex than Europe or China at the time Spain invaded. Judging from their architecture, their astronomy, their medicine etc... they were very advanced.

That is why it is such a shame what happened to them. In fact in recent years I see the word "genocide" getting throw a lot around Sudan or even Tibet, but the fact is, the only successful genocide in human history is actually in the Americas.

You can argue that there are still indigenous population that are alive today, but not their culture, when the Spanish conquered and defeated the those people, one of his very first order is to burn their books in order to destroy their identity and their cohesion, I believe there are less than a dozen book that survived this purge. That is the reason why today we know so little of them, so much knowledge was lost. That's why you see today most of those people speak Spanish, and believe in Christianity, all products of Western civilization.