SinoDefence Forum

antimatter

but China was weak at industrialization, Qing's GDP was from trading of Tea, Porcelain, and Silk.

In 1840 China was the richest in the world, but in 1940, China became the poorest. Its wealth got robbed.

High GDP doesn't mean anything if your industrialization is low.

Like today, CHina 's GDP mainly from real estate, clothings, shoes, Yes, it has created alot of wealth but It will become a magnate for imperialists to rob its wealth.

GDP content is way more important than the size.

Today CHina's GDP of modern high rises, Shoes, Toys, Bras, underwears = Yesterday Qing's GDP of grand palaces, Tea, porcelain, and Silk.

Very similar, another fat wealth waiting to be robbed..

rhino123

I do not know where you got your infor on what was the GDP for today's China. But I can tell you that the GDP of China is mainly on export of consumer products, not only clothings, shoes and stuff like that, but also consumer electronics, high tech electronics, etc.

The main thing about income nowaday don't just lies in trading only. There are other services out there that could help deter what you call as robbing. Things like infra-structure, tax incentives, taxing of industries, etc, etc. Don't just narrow your point of view to what was easily see, but look at the whole thing as a system. In the past, Qing dynasty do not have that.

Plus, who tell you that China's industrial base is still weak? They could produce their own aircrafts, ships, cars and even spaceships, which many nations still could not. China is not like what she used to be.

antimatter

Yesterday's blatant robbing is replaced by today's subtle money trap such as not allowed to buy Unical, Maytag, 3COM, but keep those money into the treasurey to finance for others.

China has some high tech stuffs but alot of internal components and equipments are from foreigners. It mostly doing final assembly of high tech stuffs.

Hendrik_2000

I don't know where you got your information but China is easily number 1 in Telecommuncation technology even beating Ericson in their own backyard, Recently Sweden Telecommunication awarded large contract to Huawei. China has the largest Shipbuilding in the world . The largest Automobile Industry in the world, The largest steel producer in the world. China design their own supercomputer and soon will be using domestic microprocessor.I guess You just in denial mode and preferred to stuck your head in the sand. All are building block for strong defense industry

China was weak in the past because they refuse to modernized their army and reform the bankrupt Qing Dynasty. Every civilization will reach it zenith sooner or latter.Pax Romano is gone so is Pax Britannica . No country will be on top forever even Pax Americana show its weakness now

History show that strong economy will inevitably lead to strong defence

FriedRiceNSpice

The main reason Qing GDP was so high was because of it's large population. The vast majority of its GDP came from subsistence farming, not trade or porcelain or tea. Yes, it did have great wealth too in absolute terms relative to the European powers at the time, but most of the national economy was based on agriculture. Qing regime also lacked the will to resist the foreigners as long as their own wealth and lives were secure. This issue was compounded by the fact that the Chinese peasant did not see the necessity in resisting the Europeans, as their lives would remain unaffected either way. They had no reason to risk their lives for the Manchu emperors. They were already poor, overtaxed, and landless to begin with, a circumstance that would not change whether the Manchus or the Westerners ran the show. Only the Han Chinese local governments and Chinese merchants truly saw Western imperialism as a threat. Then central government didn't begin to actively resist foreign encroachment until late in the century, when Europe and the United States had fully industrialized.

solarz

In 1840, China's eyes were closed to the world. The opium war violently opened its eyes. Today, China is keeping up in virtually every aspect of modern society: technology, economy, military. While in 1840, China was on a downward path from a Golden Age, today China is on an upward path toward a new Golden Age that has never been seen since the Tang dynasty.

bladerunner

I dont think so, I lost my original source but I supose Wiki will have to do as it quotes 2008 production figures.

World shipbuilding industry in the 21st century

Shipbuilding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The global shipbuilding industry is currently dominated by South Korea, which is by far the world's largest shipbuilding nation. In spite of high labour costs, South Korea produced more ships in 2008 than the entire rest of the world's combined output. Its preeminence in the industry is largely due to South Korea's highly advanced shipbuilding technology, the strong work ethic of the labor force and the high productivity and efficiency of South Korean shipyards.

For example, the world's largest shipyard in Ulsan, operated by Hyundai Heavy Industries, slips a newly-built, $80 million dollar vessel into the water every four working days.[8] South Korea's "big three" shipbuilders, Hyundai Heavy Industries, Samsung Heavy Industries, and Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering, dominate global shipbuilding, with STX Shipbuilding, Hyundai Samho Heavy Industries, Hanjin Heavy Industries, and Sungdong Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering also ranking among the top ten shipbuilders in the world.[9] In 2007, STX Shipbuilding further strengthened South Korea's dominant position in the industry by acquiring Aker Yards, the largest shipbuilding group in Europe. (The former Aker Yards was renamed STX Europe in 2008.)

China is a fast emerging shipbuilder that is poised to overtake South Korea in the distant future, although its current production is limited mainly to low-cost, basic vessels. Japan lost its leading position in the industry to South Korea in 2004,[8] and its market share has since fallen sharply. The entire European countries' total market share has fallen to only a tenth of South Korea's, and the outputs of the United States and other countries have become negligible.
World shipbuilding production by countries (2008)[10]
Rank Country 10,000 GT %
1 South Korea South Korea 1,240 50.6%
2 People's Republic of China China 840 34.4%
3 European Union Europe 140 5.7%
4 Japan Japan 90 3.7%
5 Rest of world 140 5.6%
- Global output total 2,450 100.0%

solarz

There were popular anti-western movements: the Boxer's Rebellion, for example. However, such rebellions were largely disorganized and lacked any focus, so they were easily put down by professional armies.

As for the Qing government, a series of disasters drained away what little fighting ability it had. First, the Taiping Rebellion, then the loss of the entire Northern Fleet (北洋水师） to the Japanese. Cixi's determination to cling to absolute power stifled any hope of reform and progress, leading to the birth of new revolutionaries who were no longer content with just judicial reform, but wanted to overthrow the imperial system once and for all...

For those who understand Chinese, I really recommend the TV series “走向共和”.

Hendrik_2000

Please Wiki is not the most reliable or latest source on anything Anybody can write Wiki I guess you need to do more research before posting it here it is embarrasing
Even in the category of High tech ship China is gnawing at Korea lead. Last year China won 5 contract for LNG carrier and already comission 1 LNG carrier. Recently she finished Super large Tanker and super large Cargo ship

China set to become world's largest shipbuilding country16:52, November 10, 2009
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According to Chosun Ilbo, South Korea's shipbuilding industry is suffering from insufficient orders due to the serious financial crisis, and China will replace South Korea as the world's largest shipbuilding country.

China's shipbuilding has overtaken South Korea's in terms of order volume already received and new orders. According to statistical results released by Clarkson, the research institute that analyze the global shipbuilding and maritime transport sector, as of early this month, China's shipbuilding orders reached 54.96 million Compensated Gross Ton (CGT), 34.7% of the world market share, while the South Korean shipbuilding industry holds orders of 53.63 million CGT and only 33.8% of the world's market share. China's market share is 0.9 percentage points higher than South Korea's.

From January to October, China's new orders amounted to 2.71 million CGT, and the market share reaches as high as 52.3%, while new orders in South Korea totals only 1.64 million CGT with 31.8% global market share. This means that China has exceeded South Korea in orders received and new orders and becomes the world's largest shipbuilding country. It is understood that South Korea's shipbuilding industry surpassed Japan in 2000. In the following 10 years, South Korea has been the world's largest ship builder

Industry insiders in South Korea believe that while South Korean shipbuilding orders are shrinking, at the same time, China has won orders for low-cost shipbuilding. Main products of South Korea's shipbuilding are very large oil tankers, liquefied natural gas (LNG) ships and other high value-added ships. Korea Evaluation Institute of Industrial Technology (KEIT) has warned that localization rate of South Korea's core technology of high value-added ships is low. If South Korea does not improve this rapidly, it will be difficult to remain competitive..

China Now The Biggest Shipbuilder On The Planet
November 24, 2009 · Posted in News

untitled

China has now surpassed South Korea as the world’s largest shipbuilder. China has 34.7 percent of the world market. Since 2000, South Korea has had the largest share of the world shipbuilding market after taking the lead from Japan.

China has invested significant resources into expanding its merchant shipbuilding industry, as a way to improve its warship building capability. Three years ago, China produced about a quarter of the world’s merchant ships, while South Korea was in first place, producing about a third. It was then believed that China would take first place in the next 5-10 years.

The big thing holding China back in the warship building area was the shortage of skilled personnel. By encouraging merchant shipbuilding, the government creates experienced ship builders for the more complex task of building warships. In most cases, merchant ships are larger than warships, and much less complex. For example, a common type of merchant ship is the VLCC (Very Large Crude Carrier) of 300,000 deadweight tons (DWT). This is the largest size tanker than can use the Straits of Malacca to carry oil from the Persian Gulf to East Asia. These ships haul two million barrels (about 290,000 tons) of oil per trip. These ships are larger than the biggest American aircraft carriers (like the Nimitz class, that are 110,000 tons displacement, and nearly 1,100 feet long.)

The major difference between merchant vessels and warships is what equipment they have. Merchant ships are quite basic and plain. A 300,000 DWT VLCC is about the same size as a Nimitz class carrier, but costs much less to build ($130 million for the VLCC, versus over $4 billion for the carrier). Actually, it costs more to run a carrier for one year, than the VLCC costs to build. Part of that has to do with crew size, with the carrier having a hundred sailors for everyone needed to run the VLCC.

By building all those merchant vessels, China has acquired the ability to build the basic warship hull. Where it has big problems is in creating the complex electronics, mechanical systems and weapons needed to make a warship work. China is making progress there as well, but not nearly as much as it has in the ship building area.

China grabbed the lead in market share for commercial shipping partly because it became more difficult for South Korean builders to expand. There were more restrictions on land use in South Korea, in addition to higher labour costs. South Korean builders, seeing that they could not match the expansion of Chinese ship yards, expended more effort on building more complex, and expensive, ships. Japan was following a similar path when it lost the lead to South Korea a decade ago. China also gained more market share by offering generous loan terms to foreign buyers of Chinese ships, and cheap loans for their own shipbuilders.
http://blog.marport.com/2009/11/24/c...on-the-planet/

antimatter

There's denying a big chunk of CHina's GDP growth is based on real estate growth. The bubble economy.

Similar to QIng's palace building and construction.


Video - China's empty city - 10 Nov 09 - Wall Street

rhino123

Sorry, I am not sure what you wanted to show here. Are u not happy with China's tighten control on general population in buying of Unical, Maytag and 3COM or what?

If it is the control, then I fail to see what is the problem here. Are you trying to say that China should waste her money buying those stuffs?


A few thing here...

1) Can you tell me what high tech stuff of other country are 100% manufactured by that said country? This is business my friend, why is your thinking still stopped at some centuries back whereby you would want to build everything yourself.

2) Do you seriously think that China could not manufactured the said components? I mean, come on...

And please do some research and stop thinking that whatever other people (such as Korea or Japan) has, means it is good for China.

rhino123

Please state which country didn't had a chunk of it coming from real estate? From what I can see, real estate is not a bubble, finacial sector is the bubble, many do not have any real backing in it.

Thinks like manufacturing (china has it), real estate (china has it), R&D (china has it), export sector (china has it), import sector (China has it and it is growing too), etc. All these are solid foundation stuff... not bubbles... not to mention huge supporting domestic market, so that if any one sector (especially the export market) is not doing well, they can be turned back to their own domestic market.

The main thing here is getting the people up and increasing their buying power, which I think the Chinese are focusing for sometime now... and generally the cities near the coastline are all getting wealthy enough.

Hendrik_2000

I saw those video but what the reporter missed to say,Those Apartment are all bought by investor and in China you need 40% downpayment to buy a house unlike in US where one can buy with zero downpayment . Some people even buy it on cash!. China has very small debt from outside the country So no bubble

China urbanization rate is very low something like 30 to 40% The need for housing is real.I remember during the 80 when China built the highway system the western press mockingly called it highway to nowhere because they are empty and yet within the span of decade China has the largest automobile market in the world . Their strategy is smart built it and they will come . Now they replicate the recipe for success by building super fast train and urban transit system. Chinese economy will be even more efficient in the future . Because now the older track can be used to transport good and ore

antimatter

real estate growth is OK when a country is developed and industrialized.
But CHina still on the phase of industrialization which is what they should concentrate on.

Using real estate as primary wealth making is not very sound for a still developing country.

antimatter

More under the hood components such as domestic made engines, control systems, IC components, harddrives would be needed.