training exercise HK Oct 2012-combined force

Originally Posted by airsuperiority

And to be honest, if HK really were to secede, I'd rather Hong Kong emerge as an independent state like Singapore instead of under British rule. Hong Kong's standing in the international community would equate to Singapore or Switzerland as politically neutral while part of the free 1st world.

Singapore's case was in fact "got tossed out" rather than the "leave by choice", more like a case of "teach the noisy little brother a lesson" on a very large scale...

That said, the kind of thing those idiots at HK demanding is vastly different, their participants' mentality is a blend of romanticism, naivety and a dash of skin-head...and most of them haven't reach 30s.

Originally Posted by MwRYum

C'mon, you do remember that Lincoln and JFK died by assassin's bullet, right? The US Secret Service and FBI have no luxury to take things like that lightly. Arrest that girl and grill her for 48 hours should sweat some common sense into her.

Why not look at it from China's perspective... C'mon, you do remember that little protest in Tienanmen turned into big protest that almost bring down the government? The Chinese Secret Service and Paramilitary police have no luxury to take things like that lightly. Arrest those dumass British flag tolling idiots for 48 hours should sweat some common sense into them.

You see... when it is something that disrupt the function of US government, it is legitimate response. But when the same dude that calls for damn fall of Chinese government in China.. which is a disruption of the Chinese government, it is a violation of "Human Rights" And need to be widely reported in the newspaper.

Nope, no double standard here.

Originally Posted by jackliu

Why not look at it from China's perspective... C'mon, you do remember that little protest in Tienanmen turned into big protest that almost bring down the government? The Chinese Secret Service and Paramilitary police have no luxury to take things like that lightly. Arrest those dumass British flag tolling idiots for 48 hours should sweat some common sense into them.

You see... when it is something that disrupt the function of US government, it is legitimate response. But when the same dude that calls for damn fall of Chinese government in China.. which is a disruption of the Chinese government, it is a violation of "Human Rights" And need to be widely reported in the newspaper.

Nope, no double standard here.

I get the drift...*sigh*

But here's an hardly advertised fact of China: at the time of Tienanmen incident, China in terms of crowd control have yet evolve into the "non-lethal" level, and so when comes to dispel a demonstration as huge as that one back then, the only solution known to them is one involve a lot of shooting and naturally, a lot of killing. After that, the PAP were earmarked with such role and kitted out as such...

For HK though, if and when the police can't handle the crowd, then it must be something at the level of T-virus outbreak, or some big asteroid is about a week away from impacting Earth...as such, deploying the PLA won't turn things around anyway.

Originally Posted by MwRYum

I get the drift...*sigh*

But here's an hardly advertised fact of China: at the time of Tienanmen incident, China in terms of crowd control have yet evolve into the "non-lethal" level, and so when comes to dispel a demonstration as huge as that one back then, the only solution known to them is one involve a lot of shooting and naturally, a lot of killing. After that, the PAP were earmarked with such role and kitted out as such...

For HK though, if and when the police can't handle the crowd, then it must be something at the level of T-virus outbreak, or some big asteroid is about a week away from impacting Earth...as such, deploying the PLA won't turn things around anyway.

I have no idea what you are trying to say, I am not defending the people that suffered at Tienanmen. I am saying just as US or any other nation that take the threat of bring down the government very seriously. So is China, but for some reason when the Chinese government crack down, the Western media all cry "Human right" abuses, but when they are the ones doing it themselves they see no problem with it at all.

My stand is that, there's no chance to utilize PLA to "pacify" opposition movement, because over 95% of HK people don't even know how to hold a gun properly (alongside the law enforcement, airsoft gun players might be the 5% exception, but as far as I know some of them are cops, or actually paid their way to attend PMC training courses abroad, or actually served in foreign armies before), or pass their chemistry (some morons in local discussion groups threw around ideas including conduct gas attacks, disguising themselves as mainlanders to incite hatred, but they've completely no idea of how sarin -or GB gas- works).

More importantly, those idiots who romantically dubbed themselves rebels/separatists/freedom fighters or whatever are folks who've yet past their 30s, live on their parents' but not their own means, and dirt poor...they've absolutely no idea when insurgency move from virtual to real-world, things such as organization, funding and expertise will come to play.

And above all, HK people lacks the kind of "to die for" conviction, the concept of "to pay the ultimate price for something you believe in" is never taught in education.

So why need to deploy army against a bunch of "keyboard warriors", a bunch of weaklings might have difficulty carrying a 8kg bag of rice from supermarket, or worst can't even kill a chicken with bare hands? Let the police do their job, if need be feed them through the judiciary system and the penal system, the prospect of ruining their own future will straight them out.

Originally Posted by MwRYum

I get the drift...*sigh*

But here's an hardly advertised fact of China: at the time of Tienanmen incident, China in terms of crowd control have yet evolve into the "non-lethal" level, and so when comes to dispel a demonstration as huge as that one back then, the only solution known to them is one involve a lot of shooting and naturally, a lot of killing. After that, the PAP were earmarked with such role and kitted out as such...

For HK though, if and when the police can't handle the crowd, then it must be something at the level of T-virus outbreak, or some big asteroid is about a week away from impacting Earth...as such, deploying the PLA won't turn things around anyway.

Agreed. I can speak for my people that for all the craziest things we've done, it's probably just surrounding the LegCo Chamber. For everything else, we're pretty civilized, even in the face of most protests, even if it includes >50,000 people. And the HKPF really also behave like the people as well. HKPF can be considered very high standard and restrained compared to most of the other counterparts, even by Western standards. (people would attempt to complain "police brutality" for whichever chances they get, so they want to give even less chances of people actually having a valid one...

Anyone who's lived in HK long enough would understand because of competitive nature of the society, we just love to criticize the government...and Sundays are protests days. The HK government also recognizes the international status of HK and attempt to keep it proud, so infrastructures such as the HKPF had to be kept to a very high standard. Almost sound like a brag, but the fact HKPF Senior Officers and other government officials, including the CE, would frequently mention "international image", which shows how serious they take things.

Originally Posted by MwRYum

My stand is that, there's no chance to utilize PLA to "pacify" opposition movement, because over 95% of HK people don't even know how to hold a gun properly (alongside the law enforcement, airsoft gun players might be the 5% exception, but as far as I know some of them are cops, or actually paid their way to attend PMC training courses abroad, or actually served in foreign armies before), or pass their chemistry (some morons in local discussion groups threw around ideas including conduct gas attacks, disguising themselves as mainlanders to incite hatred, but they've completely no idea of how sarin -or GB gas- works).

More importantly, those idiots who romantically dubbed themselves rebels/separatists/freedom fighters or whatever are folks who've yet past their 30s, live on their parents' but not their own means, and dirt poor...they've absolutely no idea when insurgency move from virtual to real-world, things such as organization, funding and expertise will come to play.

And above all, HK people lacks the kind of "to die for" conviction, the concept of "to pay the ultimate price for something you believe in" is never taught in education.

So why need to deploy army against a bunch of "keyboard warriors", a bunch of weaklings might have difficulty carrying a 8kg bag of rice from supermarket, or worst can't even kill a chicken with bare hands? Let the police do their job, if need be feed them through the judiciary system and the penal system, the prospect of ruining their own future will straight them out.

Well the only "to-die-for" stuffs will involve rights and stuffs, and for anything we see a massive scale of protests, that's what we care about. As for those dumbasses who wave the colonial flag....they are like, the rednecks..and they are very few in number. We're pretty pissed off with the spitting and cutting in line and all the stuffs we associate the mainlanders with doing, but most of us don't even think about separatism.

The funny thing I find though, is that nationalism had always been naturally local-brewed in HK and never had to be taught. Even the old textbooks I read had mentions of the Opium Wars and the fall of the Qing, and usually without even intentional attempts to instill nationalism. We just naturally develop the sentiments from feeling injustice of the historical pasts and through family/social upbringing. For that said, the recent overt attempt of nationalistic education is definitely nothing but a terrible backlash that the fools of the propaganda center for the CCP don't really understand.

And let's not forget HK is the freest non-democratic society(even more so than some actual democracies, and more transparent, and cleaner than most), so in HK human rights, freedom of assembly, freedom of speech are respected. It's annoying a lot of people abuse freedom of speech to say idiotic things because they don't understand the true meanings of freedom of speech, but still we need to recognize their rights, and HKPF definitely understand that. (arresting keyboard warriors will lead to another 5,000 protest on Sunday I bet you, but this time protesting abuse of power, and stepping beyond mandate and warrants and the judicial spirit)

Originally Posted by airsuperiority

Well the only "to-die-for" stuffs will involve rights and stuffs, and for anything we see a massive scale of protests, that's what we care about. As for those dumbasses who wave the colonial flag....they are like, the rednecks..and they are very few in number. We're pretty pissed off with the spitting and cutting in line and all the stuffs we associate the mainlanders with doing, but most of us don't even think about separatism.

The funny thing I find though, is that nationalism had always been naturally local-brewed in HK and never had to be taught. Even the old textbooks I read had mentions of the Opium Wars and the fall of the Qing, and usually without even intentional attempts to instill nationalism. We just naturally develop the sentiments from feeling injustice of the historical pasts and through family/social upbringing. For that said, the recent overt attempt of nationalistic education is definitely nothing but a terrible backlash that the fools of the propaganda center for the CCP don't really understand.

And let's not forget HK is the freest non-democratic society(even more so than some actual democracies, and more transparent, and cleaner than most), so in HK human rights, freedom of assembly, freedom of speech are respected. It's annoying a lot of people abuse freedom of speech to say idiotic things because they don't understand the true meanings of freedom of speech, but still we need to recognize their rights, and HKPF definitely understand that. (arresting keyboard warriors will lead to another 5,000 protest on Sunday I bet you, but this time protesting abuse of power, and stepping beyond mandate and warrants and the judicial spirit)

So of course the geniuses at the EDB did away with Chinese history as a compulsory subject... and then turned around to start national education. 'Arse-backwards' simply isn't enough to describe it. Not that I think the whole fuss isn't ludicrously overblown...

Originally Posted by Preux

So of course the geniuses at the EDB did away with Chinese history as a compulsory subject... and then turned around to start national education. 'Arse-backwards' simply isn't enough to describe it. Not that I think the whole fuss isn't ludicrously overblown...

I'm curious to see just what is in those textbooks, looking back at my school years here in USA I can safely say the stuff they teach you in middle school/high school is pretty brainwashing.

Originally Posted by jackliu

I'm curious to see just what is in those textbooks, looking back at my school years here in USA I can safely say the stuff they teach you in middle school/high school is pretty brainwashing.

Well there's plenty of that stuff on facebook. i'll try and find them for you, and then you decide. sometimes i say HK's patriotism towards our heritage and background comes a lot more rational(not accusing anyone of irrationality). we dislike what deserves criticisms, but won't deny our heritage and background and race. not identifying oneself as chinese is just another hype by the radical fools, and we are just more into dissociating ourselves from the mainland counterparts because we find many of those behaviours we condemn, as unacceptable, or not something we associate ourselves with doing. It's still negative stereotype that I often criticize my people for, because prejudice and stereotypes ain't good. Nationalistic education, aside from the reasons we're pissed, is also how it interferes with our own governance, what citizens of HK actually wants, and to install patriotism in a way we don't need, not to mention the messages of those education are concerning, really upsets us.


i found some images. depends if u wanna see them or not, i can zip it up and let you guys check it out and decide on ur own. some stuffs seem a lil overhyped, while otherwise i can also see how the materials do seem to be problematic

Originally Posted by airsuperiority

Well there's plenty of that stuff on facebook. i'll try and find them for you, and then you decide. sometimes i say HK's patriotism towards our heritage and background comes a lot more rational(not accusing anyone of irrationality). we dislike what deserves criticisms, but won't deny our heritage and background and race. not identifying oneself as chinese is just another hype by the radical fools, and we are just more into dissociating ourselves from the mainland counterparts because we find many of those behaviours we condemn, as unacceptable, or not something we associate ourselves with doing. It's still negative stereotype that I often criticize my people for, because prejudice and stereotypes ain't good. Nationalistic education, aside from the reasons we're pissed, is also how it interferes with our own governance, what citizens of HK actually wants, and to install patriotism in a way we don't need, not to mention the messages of those education are concerning, really upsets us.


i found some images. depends if u wanna see them or not, i can zip it up and let you guys check it out and decide on ur own. some stuffs seem a lil overhyped, while otherwise i can also see how the materials do seem to be problematic

I don't know if the Chinese text book are overt stuff that really stand out, or do they have material bashing other people they don't' like. But I remember how US do it with their text book. They don't really teach negative stuff to kids, however what they do is very much emphasis on patriotic education. For example in the classroom where you would have a world map hanging on the wall, and on this map. US would be at the center with all 50 states draw out, and all other nations are just borderlines.

Then in textbooks, you would get a lot of US flags backgrounds, a lot of talk about George Washington and other historical people... And of course a lot of talk about freedom. I mean if you read it, there is nothing wrong it but clearly it is meant for brainwashing you into thinking that we have the greatest nation on earth...

And if you think about it, it works. The average American today is very little concept of outside world, they are extremely self centered into thinking they are the hot stuff, while everyone else have problems. This is even being rationalized by adults with the concept of American exceptionalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I mean if you are an adult and if you believe this stuff (most people do here), I can't find a better example of being Brainwashed. Or the fact that there is still a LARGE number of adult here who still defend Iraq invasion like their life depends on it, so many people have rationalized that criticism at the US government = criticism at themselves.

I mean I have no idea what is the brainwashing process of Chinese and I'm sure they exist, but being an American and growing up more than half of my life here, I can definitely tell you, this stuff is pretty strong here.

edit. I just found another interest example, I remember in my US history class, we were talking about WW2, especially about the Doolittle Raid where US B-29 took off from carrier close to Japan homeland very early in the war to drop bombs on Japan. In the end this have very little strategic significance, but a huge moral boost.

The whole chapter was focused on every detail of the raid, how the brave pilots they took off, bombed Japan, dodging AAA fire and landed in China, it very much talk about the effect of the raid, how good it was etc... And yes, it only mention China in 1 line, that they landed in China and was safe.

Only recently while reading about this myself I found that as a result of B-29 landing, the Japanese got angry and started a campaign of terror which killed over 250,000 innocent Chinese in that area to punish the population for supporting the Americans. I mean this is a great sacrifice, but you will not find this in any US history books or will they ever talk about that in the classroom. So this exemplify how US deal with it is patriotic education, they would never talk good/bad about other nation, but they would very much talk good about themselves... A LOT.

Originally Posted by jackliu

I don't know if the Chinese text book are overt stuff that really stand out, or do they have material bashing other people they don't' like. But I remember how US do it with their text book. They don't really teach negative stuff to kids, however what they do is very much emphasis on patriotic education. For example in the classroom where you would have a world map hanging on the wall, and on this map. US would be at the center with all 50 states draw out, and all other nations are just borderlines.

Then in textbooks, you would get a lot of US flags backgrounds, a lot of talk about George Washington and other historical people... And of course a lot of talk about freedom. I mean if you read it, there is nothing wrong it but clearly it is meant for brainwashing you into thinking that we have the greatest nation on earth...

And if you think about it, it works. The average American today is very little concept of outside world, they are extremely self centered into thinking they are the hot stuff, while everyone else have problems. This is even being rationalized by adults with the concept of American exceptionalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I mean if you are an adult and if you believe this stuff (most people do here), I can't find a better example of being Brainwashed. Or the fact that there is still a LARGE number of adult here who still defend Iraq invasion like their life depends on it, so many people have rationalized that criticism at the US government = criticism at themselves.

I mean I have no idea what is the brainwashing process of Chinese and I'm sure they exist, but being an American and growing up more than half of my life here, I can definitely tell you, this stuff is pretty strong here.

edit. I just found another interest example, I remember in my US history class, we were talking about WW2, especially about the Doolittle Raid where US B-29 took off from carrier close to Japan homeland very early in the war to drop bombs on Japan. In the end this have very little strategic significance, but a huge moral boost.

The whole chapter was focused on every detail of the raid, how the brave pilots they took off, bombed Japan, dodging AAA fire and landed in China, it very much talk about the effect of the raid, how good it was etc... And yes, it only mention China in 1 line, that they landed in China and was safe.

Only recently while reading about this myself I found that as a result of B-29 landing, the Japanese got angry and started a campaign of terror which killed over 250,000 innocent Chinese in that area to punish the population for supporting the Americans. I mean this is a great sacrifice, but you will not find this in any US history books or will they ever talk about that in the classroom. So this exemplify how US deal with it is patriotic education, they would never talk good/bad about other nation, but they would very much talk good about themselves... A LOT.

Well, every nation does that. That's why it's called patriotic education...

Originally Posted by vesicles

Well, every nation does that. That's why it's called patriotic education...

I know... I'm just wonder what is the Chinese doing that get people all hot and bothered in HK, to make it sound like the Sith Empire is invading.

Originally Posted by MwRYum

So why need to deploy army against a bunch of "keyboard warriors", a bunch of weaklings might have difficulty carrying a 8kg bag of rice from supermarket, or worst can't even kill a chicken with bare hands? Let the police do their job, if need be feed them through the judiciary system and the penal system, the prospect of ruining their own future will straight them out.

Still don't you want to crack down on those trouble makers to see where, who, and what they are through interrogation? I mean a little water boarding will get them chicken little to start spilling the beans.