SinoDefence Forum

RedMercury

PAP is for riot control, counter-terrorism, and internal security. I.e. dealing with Chinese people. After 6/4, the PLA no longer will be deployed for internal security. During war (foreign invasion), the PAP would serve as support for PLA. BTW, this is all in the orbat pages in SD, sheesh.

isthvan

While I agree that some of the old stuff is way better then new from my personal experience in army I must say that there is no way that I would prefer different type of ammo bags/purses, belts etc. to universal tactical vest.

Reason is simple - your equipment flies around you when you run, weight distribution is terrible, you cant easily reach for the stuff you need(especially ammo) and to say that wearing that shit is uncomfortable is understatement.

On other hand on universal tactical vest we had you have pockets for your ammo, first gear kit, compass and any other equipment you need. Weight is distributed evenly,everything is easily reachable and you don't have anything disturbing your movements.

We have worn helmets regularly and I must admit that compared to old M-1 helmet I had to wear for first few weeks new bK600 kelvar helmet was much more comfortable thanks to smaller weight and it fitted great.

On other hand I hated body armor. That shit still weights to much, body overheats and it is clumsy as hell. Our drill sergeant preferred method of punishment was 6km run whit full equipment and body armor on. Great for losing weight...

And while I agree that less you carry the better there are few things that you joust cant do without(ammo, first aid etc.) and all that will perfectly fit in tactical vest...

Ps. I bet that all that purses and bugs cost more then one tactical vest so I really can't see any reason why PLA/PAP don't use vests...

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chicket9

So now that we acknowledged they are PAP in the 2nd and 3rd pics...


Boy are they quite well armed for border guard duty/internal affairs...I mean, HMG, LMGs, AKs...and I'm not surprised that they are using this old stuff...afterall the PAP receives hand downs from equipment no longer used by the PLA, but that is good enough...they seem better equipped than any army unit that ever existed in the ranks of the KMT and CCP during the Sino-Japanese War, and if these fellas are fighting in their home lands and had a few tricks taught to them by SOF officers for guerilla or underground purposes, these guys have the definite advantage of having more guns than the Vietcong.


While sure we can talk about what PLA doesnt have, and that their new boots are quite bad etc...I mean, compared to the 1930s-40s...
KMT and CCP troops didn't even have adequate food, let alone shoes to wear (they had to make shoes out of straw for some of them), not every man had a rifle, they wore backpacks of most primative types, no helmets, only probably enough ammo for two or three clips for their bolt actions, few machine guns...this was a problem too during the Korean War...

At least now, look at the PLA. Shoes, well fed (i mean, sitting in a barracks dining is a luxury compared to serving under any Chinese army until the latter half the 20th Century), probably at least minimal yet enough pay to encourage boys to enlist, they have HMGs even down to the level of PAP, and their mobility has been increased without heavy clumsy backpacks, and at least they have shoes...I guess the boots just need taking time to improve and get used to, as these boys probably have worn their rubber sneakers too long.

As for 5 rounds a year? WHAT THE? Oh please! If that was true, even I'd expect the average Taliban man to go through several clips just for firing his gun towards the sky when he celebrates. I mean, I guess whoever said that is AN IDIOT, NOT IN THE ARMY, and if that guy is correct, then I guess someone just misread a story of a soldier fighting in the Sino Japanese War and thought it was bout a PLA soldier TODAY (afterall, bolt action rifles only took 5 rounds, and back then KMT/CCP ammo was really really scarce).

umggc

A college student in a one month training (mandatory for all) will fire more than that. Relying on sources of such quality will only give you what you are looking for.

adeptitus

I'm not convinced that those are PAP units. As for being "well armed", I see mostly small arms common to any light infantry unit.

The PLA is the world's 3rd largest military force by total numbers (~7 million), it should be of no surprise that some of its units are still using older rifles, and organized as light infantry instead of motorized or mechanized.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...f_total_troops

Current estimates for PLA:
Active troops: 2,255,000
Reserve troops: 800,000
Paramilitary: 3,969,000
====================
Total: 7,024,000


To replace all older rifles in use, you'd have produce the new 5.8mm rifles by the millions. It took some 40 years for US and other licensed factories to manufacture ~8 million M-16 rifles. For China to equip its troops with the Type 95 rifle, existing production lines need to be re-tooled, that's not something you can do overnight.

eecsmaster

they are actually confirmed PAP units in the 06 exercise.

drunkenmonkey88

wait, ive seen pics of the PAP, and they look as well equipped as any police unit in any highly industrialized country. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? You know the black US marine style helmets, black kevlar body armor, dark blue uniform and Type 95 rifles? Are we talking about the same PAP here? I was under the impression that PAP units were very well equipped and modernized.

So all those images of PLA units with body armor, US marine helmets, Type 95 rifles, etc. are all only elite units? Wherever PLA is mentioned whether in the news or internet, those well equipped and highly modernized units are all they show, giving me an impression that the PLA is a modern effective army. So is this all propoganda and they are just making the world believe that a few elite units represent the bulk of their 2 million man army?

I am not a military expert and am new to this forum so plz correct me if i stated any errors.

swimmerXC

Just PAP elite anti-terrorist unit and PLA Spec Op forces, the rest just got type-95 if their lucky

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Gollevainen

Modern combat enverioment still requires the NBC kit to be constantly around you (or att least that what they told us ) You could fool the trainers by leaving almoust everything else in the barrracs, but not the NBC kit. And that required in our belt/vest combination two large bags in the back part. The kit consisted the gas-mask and raincoat that took lot space (and frozen it was mammoth taks to fit it into the bag that wasent even desing for it. ) of the three rear bags, the remaining one consisted the field cooking set or a medal box that could be used as small cattle or the cup you took your food with.
Did you carry similar stuff in the Croatian army? and in what manner?

and as for boots, I have always wondered why doesent other armyes use rubber boots as field foodwear, instead of the common combat boots. In our army a situatuation where someone had wet feet was as usuall as one getting eaten by bear...the rubber boots migth not look so cool or sexy in postures...but thats not the purpose of military wear

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isthvan

Yes we had NBC kit that consisted of gas mask and raincoat. Gas mask is worn in separate bag in similar fashion to pistol holster (tied for your leg so it doesn’t move) and we wore raincoat in pocket on the back of our tactical vest. For cooking we used canteen caps that we carried attached on tactical vest (since we had MRE (CSO) that wasn’t problem).
Naturally this is only basic kit and not full field kit. Rest of the kit was usually carried in/attached to backpack…

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green beret

Ok one of my friend is a military freak, even though he has never served in the military before. He has a collection of military gears from different countries, that includes the PLA combat gears.

I wanted to know how the PLA soldiers felt in the combat with those gears, so 2 days ago I went on a paint ball game with him while wearing those gears (aka separate and I also included the first aid kit and food). I must tell you, it was a freaking pain in the butt. The gears got in the way in almost everything; I almost always get hit on the face by one of my fake grenades when I took cover; I could never truly lay down on the ground, because the damn purse always get in the way; and one time I almost twisted my ankle while running, because I was off balanced by the damn purse.

all in all their gears suck!

Oh I forgot to reply to a comment made by someone earlier, he said "maybe the PLA soldiers gears are like that because they can ditch some of the equipments when they need to".

Thats bull crap. the gears soldiers take into combat from my personal experience are usual the the stuff you have to survive in combat. We usually only take with us the gun, the ammos for the gun, first aid kit, field rations and a camelback or canteen.

Now tell me, why the hell would I want to abandon these important stuff suck like my food and first aid kit?

As for the boots debate.

Man, your rubber boots are nothing compare to the ones the U.S. Army uses. It depends on what type of boots you are looks at. If You are talking about the kind the Color guards uses, yeah they are useless in combat. But there are way better boots than those, for example the Altma combat boots, I can run wearing those as well as I run wearing normal sneakers, and it is light weight (only around 3 lbs), and most of all, it is also water proof. I would prefer this way way way over some rubber boots.

Gollevainen

well in paintball cames I believe the main idea is to feel as comfortble as one can in order to get good kicks...in army, that isent the point. I can assure, you as one doing it way too much, if you feel yourselve comfortable or non-obscured by your vest&kit during battlefield manouvring, you havent done it rigth. I dont know how it is done in US army, but I doupt that they should have any unorthodox means for it. To survive under enemy fire and still advance and repeat to fire, you dont run whit your breast up, firing from hp and shouting something uplifting...
You ditch, make the legendary side-wards crawl, fire, jump again, took few steps erected, dotche again and crawl in the derbis to gain good arc of fire...
No gear can feel comfortable. We did it sometimes whit only our snarbel vest on (ones whitout any pockets or bags) and it still felt like hell...

Combat gear that soldier will take on would ofcourse contain the food, the number one priority, so your 'lunch box' is offcourse on... then the NBC kit...it doesent help you much when the NBC allert is given and your gas mask and raincoat is several hundred meters away in the tent or your truck...also, the raincoat is nessecity as nothing can be as opposite to chearfull and motivated as wet soldier. And in these conditions one migth prefer that the mantel or sweatter is also aboard when on the positions...you may not have the change to fetch it when you need it.

And all that takes space...and you cannot have it anyway ergonomically fitted so I dont see PLAN kit anyway bad, nor do i take your description of it as anyway odd...thats the feeling that all soldiers feel when doing TST...

here's a pic of finnish combat vest from front (the brigth olive bag is not related to it but seperate medic kit)...in rear contains three large bags for food box, gas mask and rain coat...


And as for boots...I didn't wet my feets single occasion during my army time, and nor did I hear anyone else, if you dont count our two NCOs that got the brain idea to use the combat boots (americn style string boots) in the woods...I dont know what sort of rubberboots there are in US, but heres pic of civilian example of our boots

...during winter, you had two number too large boots and you stuck this felt stuffing in it...felt pretty much like concrete boots, but didn't hear anyone complaining about cold feet

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rommel

I agree with Golly, no infantry gear is really confortable... like our latest tactical vest, it's better than our old web-style webbing, but still...


It's a good one, i mean, 4 magazine pouch for C7/C8, 1 pouch for a 2 liter canteen, 1 pouch for a C9 200-rounds magazine, 4 pouch for combat ration, 1 for a map, attach for the gas mask carrier, 2 pouch for first aid kit and pouchs for grenade and other items... Even it's relatively confortable and it's easy to access, i still don't like 1 thing in it, they placed the damn bayonnet carrier in the sternum...

Infantry carrying gears are not intend for confort, they are made for combat, to be able to bring combat needed stuff in a easy to carry support for the average grunt in a cost effect way... don't forget, war is a something where u can have confort where, so green beret, don't tell me that any combat gears is comfortable, because military (espicially, us, the normal grunt) are tending to find the flaw rather that what's good in our stuff...

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ahho

just wondering are those boots only for wet weather or is it multipurpose???
I always have a question about what is the difference between this boot and the ones that the canadian or the americans use where it looks like normal working boots and not that water proof

Turanian

Not PLA stuff but I answer still, sorry for

In FDF different types of boots are used based on external conditions. Rubber boots are used in wilderness, that is thick forests and swamps, to keep your feet dry. Another type of rubber boots are used in winter as there are lots of snow. Rubber boots are not used while marching.

Leather boots are used in urban areas and while marching.