New Type98/99 MBT thread

[Broccoli]

Here is the clip In was talking about.
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[Totoro]

Is there a way to assess how many type99 tanks have been produced so far? Its been a decade now since various models of type99 have been produced, we could be looking at hundreds/ close to a thousand tanks. What about type 96? have those been produced in high numbers as well during the last 10-15 years? Do we have any numbers for those, so far?

[MwRYum]

Is there a way to assess how many type99 tanks have been produced so far? Its been a decade now since various models of type99 have been produced, we could be looking at hundreds/ close to a thousand tanks. What about type 96? have those been produced in high numbers as well during the last 10-15 years? Do we have any numbers for those, so far?

They called things like that "state's secret" in China, if you read something about that on Chinese BBS it's 99% wild guess and rumor.

But if you insist on guessing...the safe figure would be a 3-digit one for ZTZ-96 series and 2-but-closer-3-digit one for Type 99 series...but even in such numbers, obsolete scraps like the Type 59 are still serving...

[Totoro]

I am asking because i see varios people (kcandrew, franco-russe, etc) talking about a batallion of this, batallion of that as if the info on hardware numbers can somehow be assessed. They were talking about IFVs and artillery vehicles, but still, perhaps that is also applicable for tanks.

three digits for 96? thats from 100 to 999 pieces? that is rather vague. also, high 2 digits for 99 seems a bit low, as even the western sources way back in 2005 worked with 200-300 hundred tanks.

i am not that much interested in total numbers as i am in yearly production volumes. unless i misunderstood here and the 2 or 3 digit values were actually yearly production rates. in which case that seems A LOT. perhaps unrealistically so.

tank batallion should be around 40-50 tanks, no? is it safe to assume that at least one batallion worth of 96 and one of 99 were produced in the last 10 years?

[Insignius]

Up now, the ZTZ99 (derivates are G and A) is deployed in the number of 660 after the restructuring of PLA armoured divisions into brigades. The ZTZ99A2 or ZTZ99B (no confimation about the correct designation) is at least deployed in one battalion (so 41 copies) in the 112th Heavy Mechanized Infantry Division, 38th GA of Beijing MR.
So, it should be around ~700 ZTZ99 of all versions (G,A,B/A2 etc).

For ZTZ96A there are around 722, while the basic ZTZ96 is around 1054, making some 1776 ZTZ96/A.

hope this helps.

[Totoro]

Up now, the ZTZ99 (derivates are G and A) is deployed in the number of 660 after the restructuring of PLA armoured divisions into brigades. The ZTZ99A2 or ZTZ99B (no confimation about the correct designation) is at least deployed in one battalion (so 41 copies) in the 112th Heavy Mechanized Infantry Division, 38th GA of Beijing MR.
So, it should be around ~700 ZTZ99 of all versions (G,A,B/A2 etc).

For ZTZ96A there are around 722, while the basic ZTZ96 is around 1054, making some 1776 ZTZ96/A.

hope this helps.

thank you. so annual production of type 99 would be some 70-80 examples (2 battalions worth?) per year, while for type 96, which has been in production for some 15 years so far, we are looking at closer to 120 tanks per year (3 batallions?).

I do have to ask - what sources do we have for any of those figures? Is it conjecture based on available photographs or is it at least in part some official statement from producer or PLA concerning "new batallion being modernized", yearly production goals etc etc... ?

[Insignius]

I do have to ask - what sources do we have for any of those figures? Is it conjecture based on available photographs or is it at least in part some official statement from producer or PLA concerning "new batallion being modernized", yearly production goals etc etc... ?

Sources are... everything. Seriously.

Ask experts like franco-russe and kcandrew about it, and they will tell you the same things. PLA Orbat discussions are topics that go on for several years and include detective work encompassing everything from official statements, netizen reports, random photos of AFV's being seen on trailers at some rail-station, PLA insider-comments and of course guesswork. After that, identifying tactical numbers/turret numbers and digging in PLA personalities and lists about disbanded/reformed legacy units are yet another entirely new can of worms that must be opened. If everything works out, we have a semi-complete Orbat of a regiment... until brigadization happens and everything is thrown off course again.

As for production numbers... Even though you didnt imply this; I still have to mention that I wouldnt be so sure about the further escalation of main battle tank production.
The ZTZ99B will most probably be produced at the same pace as now, replacing the ZTZ99A production lines, and the ZTZ96A will also still be manufactured, but one has to keep in mind that the PLA is currently turning some formerly heavy mechanized/tracked units into light mechanized units or amphibious mechanized units equipped with ZBL09 8x8 IFVs and its 105mm assault-gun and 122mm howitzer derivates, or ZTD05 amphibious tank and ZBD05 amphibious IFVs respectively in due order, so that these units will just hand over their main battle tanks to other units. A good example is how the 335th regiment of the 112th HMID gave away all their tracked vehicles (they were ZSD89 APC's and ZTZ99A tanks) to another unit, while receiving ZBL09 IFV's and derivates in return, turning them into a chinese Stryker-brigade of some sorts. The tanks they have handed over were received by a unit in Shenyang MR, which now replaced their ZTZ59s with these new tanks without ever increasing the production number of this type in general.

So, PLA modernization shouldnt just be seen with only the main battle tanks in mind, but also with the overall mechanization of the armed forces.

[kroko]

The ZTZ99B will most probably be produced at the same pace as now, replacing the ZTZ99A production lines

ZTZ99B ? its the first time i have read about it. What is it?

[jobjed]

ZTZ99B ? its the first time i have read about it. What is it?

It's the other unofficial designation of the Type-99A2. No one is sure what's it's called so some refer to it as the A2 while others the B.

[PanAsian]

Sources are... everything. Seriously.

Ask experts like franco-russe and kcandrew about it, and they will tell you the same things. PLA Orbat discussions are topics that go on for several years and include detective work encompassing everything from official statements, netizen reports, random photos of AFV's being seen on trailers at some rail-station, PLA insider-comments and of course guesswork. After that, identifying tactical numbers/turret numbers and digging in PLA personalities and lists about disbanded/reformed legacy units are yet another entirely new can of worms that must be opened. If everything works out, we have a semi-complete Orbat of a regiment... until brigadization happens and everything is thrown off course again.

As for production numbers... Even though you didnt imply this; I still have to mention that I wouldnt be so sure about the further escalation of main battle tank production.
The ZTZ99B will most probably be produced at the same pace as now, replacing the ZTZ99A production lines, and the ZTZ96A will also still be manufactured, but one has to keep in mind that the PLA is currently turning some formerly heavy mechanized/tracked units into light mechanized units or amphibious mechanized units equipped with ZBL09 8x8 IFVs and its 105mm assault-gun and 122mm howitzer derivates, or ZTD05 amphibious tank and ZBD05 amphibious IFVs respectively in due order, so that these units will just hand over their main battle tanks to other units. A good example is how the 335th regiment of the 112th HMID gave away all their tracked vehicles (they were ZSD89 APC's and ZTZ99A tanks) to another unit, while receiving ZBL09 IFV's and derivates in return, turning them into a chinese Stryker-brigade of some sorts. The tanks they have handed over were received by a unit in Shenyang MR, which now replaced their ZTZ59s with these new tanks without ever increasing the production number of this type in general.

So, PLA modernization shouldnt just be seen with only the main battle tanks in mind, but also with the overall mechanization of the armed forces.

Of course this begs the question, even if it may belong on another thread, what are China's inventory and production rates for its latest generation of IFVs/APCs? And is this more of an upgrade/replacement effort or more of an expansion of its mechanized forces?

[Insignius]

Production numbers are guesswork, so I'll just quote the deployed numbers as of today.

Quick and dirty:

- ZBL09 8x8 IFV armed with 30mm turret + HJ73 ATGM:

Deployed in 2 regiments (112. Div 335. Regt and 162. Div. 485. Regt) = 186 total

- ZBD04 tracked IFV armed with 30mm + 100mm coaxial (BMP3 pattern):

Deployed in at least 11 units (from a single battalion to whole brigade) = around 500 total

- ZBD08 IFV (significantly up-armoured/modified variant of the ZBD04 with same weapons)

Deployed in at least two battalions (in the 334th regiment 112th Div, along with the new ZTZ99B/A2, making it the heaviest and strongest regiment in the entire PLA) = 62 in total

- ZBD05 Amphibious IFV armed with 30mm turret + HJ73 ATGM:

Deployed in two amphibious mech inf divisions and partly in the two PLAMC brigades = 280 total

nd is this more of an upgrade/replacement effort or more of an expansion of its mechanized forces?

I think it is both.

For once, the PLA is only roughly 50% mechanized (compared to the Soviet army being 100% mechanized already in the mid 80's) and second there are still lots of obsolete gear in the PLA that needs replacement.
I do not foresee completely new mechanized units being created, but former motorized units will be converted and already mechanized units will be modernized.

All in all, we can say that there is actually an expansion of mechanization in the PLA which would mean that this is an expansion of the available mechanized forces in general.

[no_name]

PLA is a bit like Chinese cityscape and economic distribution. You have a number of tier one cities that can compare with any cities around the world, but you also have large number of poorer towns and villages.

[Vini_Vidi_Vici]

Hahaha, China's military organisation structure is very lose. There are a lot of countless paramilitary forces that are hard to categorize. The main reason that China is behind in development is mostly due to lack of funding in the early stages. Then when USSR collapsed and China starting to have plentiful of money, China lost the threat and motivation to drastically modernize its military. Although China is drastically modernizing its military, it is rather small scale and mostly targeted towards those elite branches. The rest are just lower tier troops, there just serving as cheap alternatives.

In the area of MBTs, China is too big and formidable for people to have a conflict with, especially in the open planes. Only possible hostile land opponent is Vietnam. The rest are either friendly or neutral neighbors. Only possible competitors/potentially hostile opponents are all from the sea, such as Taiwan, Japan, USN 7th Fleet, and the ASEAN countries. MBTs are useless in those cases, where warships and airplanes are the only weapons viable.

I still believe that tanks are important in modern warfare. It's a necessity to constantly research and upgrade in this sector, but it is becoming less important for China. The programs should be kept alive but at a small scale, like Japan. This way the available technology is always avant-garde, but at the same time, not much money is wasted into something that is barely used.

[escobar]

china displays ads and tank underd evelopment

Sure, NORINCO, China’s lead military manufacturer didn’t have the real thing, but they did display a model of the Sky Dragon air defense system and Main Battle Tank 3000 in development.

The medium range surface-to-air missile system can detect up to 144 targets provided target guidance for 12 missiles simultaneously. The radar has a range of 130 km with a missile target engagement range from 30m to 20km in altitude.

The system is broken up into three elements: a fire distribution vehicle, an IBIS 130 3D target designation radar as well as up to six launching units each outfitted with four suface-to-air-missiles.

The missile is a single-stage solid propellant. It has a single-shot kill probability against a fighter aircraft of 80 percent, said Wang Cheng, the West Asia Department assistant general manager for NORINCO.

China’s North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) also displayed their Main Battle Tank 3000 the company hopes to deliver to the Chinese Army in two years, Cheng said. It’s one of the few, if not the only, company to be developing a main battle tank. The tank can reach speeds up to 42 miles per hour with a cruising range of 500 km. It has a fording depth of four to five meters and a trench of 2.7 meters. The maximum gradient is 60 percent.

Engineers mounted a 125mm smoothbore gun onto the MBT 3000. The main gun can fire APFSDS, HEAT and HE shells and gun launched missiles with a maximum missile range reaching 5,000 meters. MBT 3000 also features a 12.7 mm anti-aircraft machine gun and a 7.62mm coaxial machine gun. Tankers can also fire from 8 76mm smoke grenade launchers and 4 76mm shrapnel grenade launchers.

It carries 38 rounds of main ammunition with a loading speed of eight rounds per minute with 22 rounds on the loader. An un-cooled thermal imagery is installed for the driver while a second generation cooled thermal imager is provided for gunner and the tank commander.

The engine is a water-cooled turbocharged electronic-controlled diesel engine with 1300 horsepower.The tank is fully digitized with inertial navigation and GPS. Engineers also built a new fire extinguishing and explosion suppression system.

[no_name]

It looks like the VT-1A tank publicized not long ago.