An innovation idea for Army.

Here's an idea for a much more practical innovation that will have implications the world over.

NORINCO or the Russians should make a longer-range precision-guided version of RPG-7 (and similar model) ammunition.

Rather than relying on the skill of the individual gunner over open sights, with the use of a guided round 1st round, 1st shot kills could almost be assured.

Imagine the implications of this development:

Small groups of soldiers the world over equipped with RPG's would be able to hit rapidly-moving tanks, armored vehicles and even low-flying aircraft within the lethal range consistenly - making it far more difficult and costly for the 'imperial' powers to wage unjust wars against them!

Casualties for them would probably go up by at least a factor of 10! - until they learned to keep their distance.

Driving around at high speed within hostile zones would be suicidal.

It would effectively end 'hearts-and-minds' operations within enemy-controlled territories.

They would be unable to send mercenary soldiers into these areas - Blackwater's operations would end.

Theft and exploitation of a regions natural resources would be almost impossible to undertake without prohibitive losses.

This is one innovation that is crying out for fulfillment.

Originally Posted by duskylim

Here's an idea for a much more practical innovation that will have implications the world over.

NORINCO or the Russians should make a longer-range precision-guided version of RPG-7 (and similar model) ammunition.

Rather than relying on the skill of the individual gunner over open sights, with the use of a guided round 1st round, 1st shot kills could almost be assured.

Imagine the implications of this development:

Small groups of soldiers the world over equipped with RPG's would be able to hit rapidly-moving tanks, armored vehicles and even low-flying aircraft within the lethal range consistenly - making it far more difficult and costly for the 'imperial' powers to wage unjust wars against them!

Casualties for them would probably go up by at least a factor of 10! - until they learned to keep their distance.

Driving around at high speed within hostile zones would be suicidal.

It would effectively end 'hearts-and-minds' operations within enemy-controlled territories.

They would be unable to send mercenary soldiers into these areas - Blackwater's operations would end.

Theft and exploitation of a regions natural resources would be almost impossible to undertake without prohibitive losses.

This is one innovation that is crying out for fulfillment.

But that type of munition would not be as cheap as the current RPG-7 stock plus with guidance and stuff like that, it would no doubt weigh much more too.

RPG-7 is relatively cheap and can be mass produced at a great number in a short time, it is a no brainer type of weapon that is easy to use, durable and can be quite effective against bunkers, unprotected infantries and soft armour. However with the innovation added in, the cost is going to be too high, is more complicated to manufacture, build in great number and also required some skills from the firers.

Yes it is true that the precision-guided round would be much more expensive but that is NOT the point.

The key is to secure a First-shot, First-round hit - and then follow-up using the much cheaper ordinary rounds.

For example, typically most convoys of armored vehicles try to avoid RPG fire by driving along erratically at very high speed in order to become much more difficult targets and spoil the RPG gunner's aim.

If you have the precision round then you can attack the convoy by 1st destroying the lead vehicle and then the last or tail vehicle in the convoy - and then you can destroy all the vehicles in-between at you leisure using conventional rounds - as they are trapped between the two end vehicles and can't maneuver to escape.

Also once you've made a critical hit with the precision rounds - all follow up shots can be made with conventional ammo - because you've wounded your prey.

All-in-all the availability of such ammunition will make attacks like I have described much easier to undertake successfully - and reduce the freedom of maneuver of your opponent.

Also, if such a round could be made effective against low-flying aircraft and helicopters - out to a range of maybe 2 to 3 km, close air-support and ground attack become that much more difficult.

It would become in effect the poor-man's equalizer vs a massively conventionally superior opponent.

Originally Posted by duskylim

Yes it is true that the precision-guided round would be much more expensive but that is NOT the point.

The key is to secure a First-shot, First-round hit - and then follow-up using the much cheaper ordinary rounds.

For example, typically most convoys of armored vehicles try to avoid RPG fire by driving along erratically at very high speed in order to become much more difficult targets and spoil the RPG gunner's aim.

If you have the precision round then you can attack the convoy by 1st destroying the lead vehicle and then the last or tail vehicle in the convoy - and then you can destroy all the vehicles in-between at you leisure using conventional rounds - as they are trapped between the two end vehicles and can't maneuver to escape.

Also once you've made a critical hit with the precision rounds - all follow up shots can be made with conventional ammo - because you've wounded your prey.

All-in-all the availability of such ammunition will make attacks like I have described much easier to undertake successfully - and reduce the freedom of maneuver of your opponent.

Also, if such a round could be made effective against low-flying aircraft and helicopters - out to a range of maybe 2 to 3 km, close air-support and ground attack become that much more difficult.

It would become in effect the poor-man's equalizer vs a massively conventionally superior opponent.

No. Because such rounds are expensive and I don't think they will be cheaper by alot in comparism to anti-tank missiles. The main thing about RPG was to arm your men quickly, with minimal training and allow them to go into war.

Nations that are richer have phased out RPG in favour of missiles and those anti-infantry role are given to other more powerful single round rockets. Those in third world country might not be able to afford the rounds that you have described.

The Chinese authorities are known to actively adopt technological innovations from around the world to develop its economy.
This trend is in the Chinese military industrial complex
It would be interesting to talk about innovations that could potentially be a demand in the Chinese army.

I think China military industrial technological innovation much earlier than economy, ofcourse, it's unbalance, after adopt technological innovations from around the world to develop its economy, and complex in military industry,the Chinese military industry progress getting faster.
like China nuclear bomb in 1964, launched sat missile in 1970, built SSN in 1972,Chinese military industry usly go faster than economy.

Originally Posted by duskylim

Yes it is true that the precision-guided round would be much more expensive but that is NOT the point.

The key is to secure a First-shot, First-round hit - and then follow-up using the much cheaper ordinary rounds.

For example, typically most convoys of armored vehicles try to avoid RPG fire by driving along erratically at very high speed in order to become much more difficult targets and spoil the RPG gunner's aim.

If you have the precision round then you can attack the convoy by 1st destroying the lead vehicle and then the last or tail vehicle in the convoy - and then you can destroy all the vehicles in-between at you leisure using conventional rounds - as they are trapped between the two end vehicles and can't maneuver to escape.

Also once you've made a critical hit with the precision rounds - all follow up shots can be made with conventional ammo - because you've wounded your prey.

All-in-all the availability of such ammunition will make attacks like I have described much easier to undertake successfully - and reduce the freedom of maneuver of your opponent.

Also, if such a round could be made effective against low-flying aircraft and helicopters - out to a range of maybe 2 to 3 km, close air-support and ground attack become that much more difficult.

It would become in effect the poor-man's equalizer vs a massively conventionally superior opponent.

The tactic that you are describing could also be implemented with two dedicated anti-tank missiles and rpg-7s in-between. Also the niche between a guided rpg-7 and an anti-tank missile is narrow.

A good example of how such a round would affect operations would be to study the Philippine Army's operations against the local Muslim separatists - the MNLF and the MILF.

Both those groups are equipped with various forms of RPG's and RPG-clones, some even assembled locally.

The tactic of the Philippine Army - when entering areas controlled by them or suspected to have separatist presence is to drive their AFV's (mostly wheeled APC's) very rapidly and erratically along the roads - in order to present a difficult target for the RPG gunners.

Those tactics are often shown in action reports by local news media.

This is quite similar to the tactics of evasion used by the US armed forces and mercenaries in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Many RPG rounds were expended but no hits were obtained.

If a guided round were available, then a 1st-shot, 1st-kill situation would almost certainly be the result - greatly improving the success rate of the separatist's engagements and increasing the difficulties of the local armed forces.

What if every engagement with them resulted in lost APC's - the human, material and monetary cost of this alone would preclude extended or large-scale operations - effectively defeating the governments pacification efforts.

The fact is, it is very difficult for most of these small-scale local militias to obtain anti-tank missiles - for various reasons, but the acquisition of specialized ammunition for their RPG's already in widespread service would not present insuperable difficulties.

The front portion of the RPG warhead, being a shaped-charge is in fact an EMPTY cone - a space that could easily be filled with the guidance electronics - which I need not remind you are growing more compact and capable all the time.

Bleeding a portion of the propulsion rocket motor's thrust in order to power the servo-mechanisms for guidance would not materially affect the range, nor the complexity of the round itself - indeed the basic round has a quartet of very large, folding guide fins that extend upon emerging from the launch tube.

One could, for example put graphite vanes (ala V-2) into the rocket nozzle using them to deflect the exhaust stream for guidance.

The possibilities are endless and the design solutions well-known and tried.

From a simple dumb-bunker buster one could turn the RPG into a giant-killer.

It could even serve as a basic anti-aircraft weapon against helicopters and low-flying ground attack aircraft.

The whole exercise is like making a dumb bomb smarter - rather than building an expensive specialized missile to do the same job.

Look at the success of the smart bomb program - its time to do the same for the individual weapon.

Originally Posted by duskylim

A good example of how such a round would affect operations would be to study the Philippine Army's operations against the local Muslim separatists - the MNLF and the MILF.

Both those groups are equipped with various forms of RPG's and RPG-clones, some even assembled locally.

The tactic of the Philippine Army - when entering areas controlled by them or suspected to have separatist presence is to drive their AFV's (mostly wheeled APC's) very rapidly and erratically along the roads - in order to present a difficult target for the RPG gunners.

Those tactics are often shown in action reports by local news media.

This is quite similar to the tactics of evasion used by the US armed forces and mercenaries in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Many RPG rounds were expended but no hits were obtained.

If a guided round were available, then a 1st-shot, 1st-kill situation would almost certainly be the result - greatly improving the success rate of the separatist's engagements and increasing the difficulties of the local armed forces.

What if every engagement with them resulted in lost APC's - the human, material and monetary cost of this alone would preclude extended or large-scale operations - effectively defeating the governments pacification efforts.

The fact is, it is very difficult for most of these small-scale local militias to obtain anti-tank missiles - for various reasons, but the acquisition of specialized ammunition for their RPG's already in widespread service would not present insuperable difficulties.

The front portion of the RPG warhead, being a shaped-charge is in fact an EMPTY cone - a space that could easily be filled with the guidance electronics - which I need not remind you are growing more compact and capable all the time.

Bleeding a portion of the propulsion rocket motor's thrust in order to power the servo-mechanisms for guidance would not materially affect the range, nor the complexity of the round itself - indeed the basic round has a quartet of very large, folding guide fins that extend upon emerging from the launch tube.

One could, for example put graphite vanes (ala V-2) into the rocket nozzle using them to deflect the exhaust stream for guidance.

The possibilities are endless and the design solutions well-known and tried.

From a simple dumb-bunker buster one could turn the RPG into a giant-killer.

The whole exercise is like making a dumb bomb smarter - rather than building an expensive specialized missile to do the same job.

Look at the success of the smart bomb program - its time to do the same for the individual weapon.

What you say is true except for a small detail. How are the separaist gonna get hold of the electronic. and how are they going to be specialise enough to manufacture these 'high tech' equipment.

Most third world countries that still uses the RPG are mainly very poor and with wealth resting on very little number of people who actually do not care for anything but themselves.

Plus... one more thing, to make a round guided, it is not just the empty cone that was to be laid with electronic components and equipment. The entire round had to be involve, how else would the round be guided? So it is not a simple feat to modify and upgrades these rounds and most certainly it those poorer nation or insurgents wouldn't have the capability or knowledge to do it unless there are some form of support from a third party nation like CHina.

As for China, I think they are slowly phasing out the RPG or their equivalent in favour for better anti-tank and anti-bunker weaponries... and the on hand RPG are being flowed down to second line troops and militia. so there is no need to spent massive amount of dollars to upgrades these weaponries.

I have a different idea; what about a high speed kinetic-energy-kill RPG round? For example, 1500m/s? The RPG-7's projectile moves slowly and they're single shot that they're likely to miss a fast moving target. If you add speed and multiple shot (2 to 4 shots) to it, the hit probability may raise highly.

Originally Posted by SteelBird

I have a different idea; what about a high speed kinetic-energy-kill RPG round? For example, 1500m/s? The RPG-7's projectile moves slowly and they're single shot that they're likely to miss a fast moving target. If you add speed and multiple shot (2 to 4 shots) to it, the hit probability may raise highly.

Has a high speed kinetic energy kill round been successfully been developed and deployed already? From what I imagine, these rounds are much bigger than normal RPG rounds which came back to weigh issue. and such a round would also go back to the same cost issue.

RPG's lifespan is almost to an end. It is quite obsolete in many battle fronts and against better equipped and armored troops. The only advantage that I can see of the RPG right now is, it is cheap and easy to manufacture and could be build in great numbers quickly so as to arm militia in a large number.

The RPG are still quite useful against soft armour and infantries but these advantages are also diminishing too.

For the poorer nations, they had huge stockpile of the RPG rounds and I don't think they would want or can afford newer and more powerful rounds (like kinetic rounds or guided rounds). For country like China and other more developed country that fielded the RPG, they are slowly phasing these weapon to backline troops or militia and are adopting missiles and more powerful rockets.

For countries like US, Japan, SK and many of the EU countries, they do not even use RPG and so these innovation do not benefit them.

Actually from what I see... innovation do not have to be technologically advance and/or very complicated.

I would think that they might be able to add a high power laser dazzler which I think they have the technology to manufacture cheaply and in vast number, under their Type 95 or other handheld weapon like their submachine gun. It is useful to put down offensive individuals without the need to kill them.

Originally Posted by rhino123

What you say is true except for a small detail. How are the separaist gonna get hold of the electronic. and how are they going to be specialise enough to manufacture these 'high tech' equipment.

Most third world countries that still uses the RPG are mainly very poor and with wealth resting on very little number of people who actually do not care for anything but themselves.

Plus... one more thing, to make a round guided, it is not just the empty cone that was to be laid with electronic components and equipment. The entire round had to be involve, how else would the round be guided? So it is not a simple feat to modify and upgrades these rounds and most certainly it those poorer nation or insurgents wouldn't have the capability or knowledge to do it unless there are some form of support from a third party nation like CHina.

As for China, I think they are slowly phasing out the RPG or their equivalent in favour for better anti-tank and anti-bunker weaponries... and the on hand RPG are being flowed down to second line troops and militia. so there is no need to spent massive amount of dollars to upgrades these weaponries.

I direct your wayward attention to my 1st post, wherein I specified that it should be NORINCO or the Russians who will build and supply this round, not the separatist groups themselves.

The separatist groups will merely use it.

Please do me the courtesy of reading my whole argument, not just portions of it.

The modifications I suggested are far from difficult, certainly not as hard (unless you have no technical training) as you may believe.

Modifying a rugged and simple piece of equipment like the RPG round is in fact routine - both Bangladesh and Sri Lanka have produced their own version of the warhead for anti-personnel use.

If fact a group of engineering students in a well-equipped lab could make such a round a class project and be able to complete a working design by the end a year or so of effort - provided they had enough support and were permitted to work with weapons and high explosives.

I myself would consider it a dream project to be involved in.

Originally Posted by duskylim

I direct your wayward attention to my 1st post, wherein I specified that it should be NORINCO or the Russians who will build and supply this round, not the separatist groups themselves.

The separatist groups will merely use it.

Please do me the courtesy of reading my whole argument, not just portions of it.

The modifications I suggested are far from difficult, certainly not as hard (unless you have no technical training) as you may believe.

Modifying a rugged and simple piece of equipment like the RPG round is in fact routine - both Bangladesh and Sri Lanka have produced their own version of the warhead for anti-personnel use.

If fact a group of engineering students in a well-equipped lab could make such a round a class project and be able to complete a working design by the end a year or so of effort - provided they had enough support and were permitted to work with weapons and high explosives.

I myself would consider it a dream project to be involved in.

I myself would also like you to read all of my arguement and not the insurgent whereby you are the one who brought it up in the first place (so do me the courtesy of understanding my post first before flaring up).

I am saying that RPG is mend to be a cheap weapon to be easily manufactured and armed in vast numbers to the people. Russia and China of course have the capability of designing and built such munition but it is too expensive and would not give the advantage to their more powerful weapons. Plus both Russia and China are slowly phasing out these weapons and the abundance of them are given to the second line or militia.

And yes, your engineering students in a well equipped lab could produce a RPG rounds. That is pure and simple RPG rounds. But could they produce one that had guidance system in them? It is not as simple as you make them sound to be.

Originally Posted by SteelBird

I have a different idea; what about a high speed kinetic-energy-kill RPG round? For example, 1500m/s? The RPG-7's projectile moves slowly and they're single shot that they're likely to miss a fast moving target. If you add speed and multiple shot (2 to 4 shots) to it, the hit probability may raise highly.

The only projectiles that travel that quickly are those fired from high-velocity tank or anti-tank guns.

Only those pieces of specialist artillery can produce the tremendous kinetic energy needed to accelerate a projectile to those velocities (about 150% that of a rifle bullet like the M-16's 5.56 mm round).

Such a weapon will be large, heavy and crew-served - like any high-velocity gun - hardly the weapon for an individual soldier who has a minimum of training and equipment and relies on mobility and stealth.

Even then to make hits at long-range tank guns need laser range-finders, ballistic computers and large servo control systems to lay the gun.

The whole point of using weapons like the RPG is that it is possible to defeat homogeneous steel armor with clever means like shaped-charges.