SinoDefence Forum

Hyperwarp

Huh? No! The Eurofighter has the CAPTOR Mechanically scanned RADAR - Link

Despite that its rumoured to be one of the most powerful today. Almost twice the range of the AI.24 Foxhunter.

The CAPTOR-E AESA has completed testing and is ready for usage IIRC, but off-course they have to order the the Tranche-3 aircraft.

http://www.selex-sas.com/EN/Common/f...cts/CAPTOR.pdf

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...esa-radar.html

Pictures: EADS flies first Eurofighter with upgraded AESA radar-11/05/2007-Flightglobal.com

Plus:

checkout the Selex website

http://www.selex-sas.com/SelexGalile...adar/index.sdo

antiterror13

I don't believe the arm embargo will be lifted anytime soon. I think it is a goo dthing for China as it forces China to increase R & D spending significantly every year and rely on their own product ...... and also good for Chinese economy too as the $$$$ will go around in China, not going to EU.

Perhaps China will be behind 5-10 years ..... but the gap will be narrowed every year ... in some key technologies, even China is already ahead of EU

paintgun

I regret to make my 2nd post in sdf about this
As someone who have also seen Armand's action in the other forum, i feel i need to make some comment

It's to great to see him to arrive here, hbogyt please leave all the pricky behaviour and spare them for use in *that* forum
I believe Armand can find many useful stuffs and benefit greatly from the knowledge in this forum, whether he chose to trust the infos here and learn is up to him to decide

Sorry for OT

My 0.02 $ on the topic,

I think lifting the embargo is much more important to the EU than to PRC. As already stated by other members, PRC has advanced well into many areas of defense technologies after all the hurdles and long struggles.
PRC now does not need to care about the EU arms embargo, it will be good if it's lifted though, easier access and wider options. The current PLA does not depend on EU defense industry, and when they do, they have found ways to navigate around the embargo and deal with it.

If PRC wants the embargo off, we would already see diplomacy and negotiations done by the PRC side.

The EU however is looking at all the $$ that they can make with arms exports to PRC, arguably they are the ones itching to get the embargo off.
Might as well sell the best stuffs for big bucks before the PLA catch up even more, that is probably on their mind

tphuang

To respond to Maggern, Typhoon is not using AESA yet.

As I said, FWS-10 are for J-11Bs and they were grounded at beginning of 2009, but the issues got fixed and now they are flying from the recent photos. If the Russians offer a better variant of AL-31FN for J-10 with greater thrust level, it will beat out FWS-10A. Remember, FWS-10A is a different engine and still require time to mature, so they are going with both engines. J-10 is not in a situation like J-11B where it'd be grounded if Taihang is not available.
As I side, it's used to train the crew for operation on Varyag. It's not an engineering school, there are a lot of PLAN naval equipment test/training facilities in Wuhan. This happens to be one of them. The security there is also not that tight, which means they are not hiding it. Once they get their first domestic carrier in operation, they'd have to modify it to resemble that.
A couple of things, that revealed ONI report had a bunch of mistakes (pretty embarrassing for USN if you ask me). They seemed to have recycled noise levels from a report in the 90s. Chinese subs are noisy, but there is not much help they can get from the Europeans. Shang was certainly not available in service in 2004, so that Japan article would have to be a different submarine. Han had it's share of reactor problems, but a lot of things are fixed now. It's just noisy, no longer dangerous.

Al-Khalid decisions were made a while ago, Chinese stuff have improved a lot since. As seen recently in Peru, China's export stuff can beat out European/Russian options. As for JF-17, nothing has been decided. I certainly don't blame PAF for looking out for options.
J-10 wasn't offered. JF-17 was. Even for Pakistan, J-10's export version would not be available until after J-10B's IOC into PLAAF.
KJ-2000 has been in service for a while and reached FOC a while ago. KJ-200 had problems with the platform, which are now solved. Y-8F600 is now in full production mode at Shaanxi AC. 052C is using an AESA MFR like Sampson.
The thing people don't know is that China's fighter AESA radar program are actually pretty far ahead, but they don't release it to international world, so nobody really knows that they are almost ready.
It looks like you need to be a little more humble first. There are certain things countering China's rise, but not what you state.

SampanViking

The key to a good discussion on topics such as this is of course a eye for accuracy and strict attention to detail.

Now remind me which year France adopted the Euro?

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Maggern

The pretext of KJ-2000 is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that is in an operational AWACS technology of a caliber that China chose over Russian ones.

I'm guessing you comment of the KJ-200 is refering to the crash a few years back. I've seen so many amateurs (though not saying -you- are one) say "Haha, look at this. China's AWACS has crashed. Their program is defunct". ONE KJ-200 crashed, but they had a bunch of them. The problem was not about the system, but rather the plane itself, which IMO is the least of the problems of an AWACS development. As tphuang noted, it's problems are solved now and they were displayed on the 60th anniversary parade.

Ah well, live and learn. At least it's around the corner.

Armand2REP

As I have mentioned before, WS-10A doesn't use Iris nozzles. People want to ignore the fact that this is necessary for a high performance 15 tonne engine. People wondered why the engine was taking so long to get its military thrust, well that is the reason. Until we see an Iris nozzle on it, these engines won't be fixed.

The building in question is the China Shipbuilding Corporation's 701 Research Institute for naval engineering. They are one of the few facilties in China that have mastered CAD design. They are going all out to model the carrier before they build in Shanghai.

I didn't mention the Han's old leaky reactor, no doubt its fixed or they wouldn't bother building a second class based on the same design. Everyone was so hellbent on believing the Shang was going to be a Victor III design aided by the Russians, to our suprise we found it to be an evolution of the Han. You are probably right about the article, it must have been an improved Han, but then the Shang is little more than an improved Han. First launch of Shang was in 2002 and eight years later, still only one is known with maybe two in existance. This points to inherent problems of the class. Once China gets something that works reasonably well, they build it enmass.


Peru doesn't have the money to afford European or Russian options. They only bought China with a very generous credit extension. No one is blaming PAF for looking into other options, Chinese avionics didn't leave them much choice.

J-10 wasn't offered. JF-17 was. Even for Pakistan, J-10's export version would not be available until after J-10B's IOC into PLAAF.[/QUOTE]

According to the Russians, J-10 was offered.

Myanmar to buy 20 MiG-29 fighters for $570 mln - paper | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire

If J-10 has a working AESA, SMT should have been a non-contender.

I will start humbling myself when I see evidence, such as the lack of it when it comes to Chinese AESA. I see alot of members and blogs talking about it, but no proof. Are there pictures of a Chinese array? Is there a publication by the CCP that says they have it? Thats why I'm here, to see the proof.

Quickie

IMO, the PLA will not fly a lot of the WS-10A on the single engined J-10 before they have flied a lot of the WS-10A on the double engined J-11B. We've seen new pictures of the J-11B installed with the WS-10s recently.


That shows China's submarines have powerful pings.

Seriously, the argument is illogical since they're implying that the pings of advanced submarine shouldn't affect the whales. This is nonsense since any kind of noisy sonar would affect marine mammals.

Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that the submariners actually observed the whales getting disoriented while they're in the sub!


There were also a few other instances where the U.S. and Japan Navy failed to detect Chinese submarines until they were within torpedo range.

Baibar of Jalat

No nation can be number in every field, exchange of ideas is not a bad thing. Thats I really have to say.

Unless China is going to war with Nato soon, I dont see why China should be to worried about being behind.

tphuang

As I said, it's not a 15 ton engine. What gave you the idea that it's a 15 tone engine? The problem is not with the thrust. It's problems were production quality, go to our WS-10A thread and actually read it. We posted a ton of official articles on this matter from AVIC1.

I don't need you to tell me where it is. I know where it is. The guy that wrote the bloomberg article on this building got the location from me. You do realize that they are putting Varyag back in service right? And from what we can see, the refitting of Varyag and this building looks exactly the same. We will see what the domestic carrier looks like when it comes out. Until then, this building looks to be testing out the electronics and training crew for Varyag.

You have your views on Shang as based on Han and others have other opinion. We have GE photo evidence of at least 5 Shang that's in service. You can see this if you bother going through our submarine thread. Again, ONI is completely wrong in its estimations. And the noise level estimations are the same as a chart they had in the late 90s. I really doubt this chart is what they have at the latest intel.

can you actually try to read that Peru thread? We have people from Peru and general dynamics telling us that China had by far the best offer in terms of performance and price. But of course, you know better.

From what I can tell, Pakistan is quite satisfied with JF-17's Chinese avionics in the first batch. Let's wait and see what will happen in the second batch.

Right, the Russians. We just had a recent article on flightglobal where CAC said that J-10 will not be exported until after J-10B is ready. We know that J-10 still uses AL-31FN, so Russians would be crazy to allow another fighter using the Russian engine compete against their own fighter. We know that Pakistan is J-10's first customer and it still has to wait another 4-5 years. But of course, this anonymous source knows better. In fact, didn't they also say China was going to buy 50 Su-33s amongst a lot of other claims?

We have an article in J-10 thread that says 607 has developed AESA radar. We have seen J-10B's nose with a shape that is optimized for AESA radar. We have seen AESA radar deployed everywhere else in PLA. If you choose to believe that China's AESA radar won't be ready soon for J-10B, that's your choice.

As for whether or not China can learn from Europe on avionics/radar. I don't see there is any problem with that, but they can live comfortably without that kind of cooperation.

btw, I was willing to grant you some slacks at the beginning, because you were showing some knowledge. You need to realize that the point of you being on this forum shouldn't be to piss people off.

vesicles

You should know that the absence of evidence is NOT the evidence of absence. You can't assume it's not there simply because you can't find evidence for it, especially considering the "transparency problem" that the Chinese military has. Many indirect evidence points to the existence of AESA.

King_Comm

What sort of proof are you after? KJ-2000 has a fixed radom, KJ-200 has a balance beam, these arrangements would not work with mechanically scanned radars.

Are you saying that those planes have entered service and are performing patrols with no functioning radars?

antiterror13

being behind is not everything, even China is 5-10 years behind than NATO .. CHina would win the war very easily ... if the war is on China soil.

Even if China was 40 years behind .. I would still bet all my money on China

If China was ahead .. let's say 30 years than NATO .. China still would not be able to win th ewar if the war was in EU

and I don't see China is invading EU countries anytime soon, or at least in
our current generation.

so just relax .. catching up slowly ... no hurry .. China is extremely strong for defensive purpose, no country including US can invade China succesfuly

Arm embargo is not relevan anymore ... China never pursue it to be lifted ... China is advanced enough now to develop their own weapon systems

hbogyt

Being accused of being a prick, I shall briefly defend myself.

You have no right to say that. You don't know me, nor Armand well enough. I was merely innoculating against his uncooperative behaviour. Here's an example of what I was talking about:

I cite him a book that I read on the Asian financial crisis. He said there was no need to read it because it wouldn't say what I said it said. PPfftt.

I suggest you direct that rude comment at him rather than me, as he is the one among many others who p!ss all over anything Chinese. There was nothing I could do, let alone "pricky behaviour", "that" forum isn't managed by excellent moderators like popeye, sumdud and Gollevaine.

Sorry guys, I was so angry at his insults. I've always been a rule abiding netizen.



"As I have mentioned before, WS-10A doesn't use Iris nozzles. People want to ignore the fact that this is necessary for a high performance 15 tonne engine. People wondered why the engine was taking so long to get its military thrust, well that is the reason. Until we see an Iris nozzle on it, these engines won't be fixed."

What is a nozzle going to do to ramp up the RPM quicker? The air has already passed the turbines.

rhino123

Just read this from the defencetalk website.

Reference:

1. China urges EU to lift arms embargo | Defense & Security News at Defense Talk

From there China actually requested (demanded) the lifting of arms embargoment from EU. Which mean, China did requested to lift the ban contradicting to what we have believe.

I am wondering if the arm embargoment was finally lifted, what would China's first purchase be? Helicopters, A400M military transport? or maybe even sub-system like the carrier's catapaults and things like that. It would definitely improve and speed up her R&D sector once China had excess to the modern western equipments.