SinoDefence Forum

RedMercury

...or just a reflection of the fact that China deployed 2nd line infantry on the Sino-Vietnamese border. The 1st rate units were on the northern border, in case the Soviets called.

bladerunner

That's a rather hard question to answer the only book I've ever read on China was Edgar Snows book "Red Star Over China" and I can't remember it there was too much written about the actual guerilla war, and although much is made of Mao's guerrilla war against Chiang, the most vivid pictures in my memory were the post WW2 campaigns in Northern China where old film footage showed PLA troops with tanks and with Soviet advice, were beginning to adopt tactics, somewhat similar to the strategy's of 'Deep Battle'.

I guess in the earlier years the battle environment would have been somewhat similar to how the Viet Minh fought against the French?????? I think that type of approach, getting the opponent to over react to your own attacks and thereby alienating the populace was the correct one, because even in the very early days I don't think Stalin was giving unconditional support to Mao, because of ideological differences. I think Stalin believed the roots of the revolution had to come from the proletariat and not from the peasantry?

School lessons told us the reason why the KMT lost was Chiang exhausted his forces energy , by fighting the warlords and the Japanese while the communists conserved their resources and bided their time. This view reinforced by a ex red guard woman ( If or got her name who now lives in the West and for a while was the darling of anti ccp public in that she wrote a book, about her life in China as well as destroying the myth of Mao. cant remember the books title or her name) because I have never read it.

I find the assertion that the Communists did not fight the Japanese rather strange because as a young kid I use to go with my father to the "NZ China friendly society" ( One had to be very careful attending their gatherings as the NZ govt regarded it as a front for communism and watched its goings on suspiciously.) And then my dad was CCP supporter and my mum was a KMT supporter.


Well Im Very Very sure I saw a documentary of communist troops fighting the Japanese in the early part of the war. I don't know where about's in China it took place and when I asked my father what it was about he said something about a hundred. I don't know whether he misheard me or I misunderstood him but I've never pursued the question with him. Subsequently i have nothing to go on other than some vague idea that the communists did fight the Japanese.
the amazing thing about this periods as regards the PLA is how a ragtag army which made hardwork in fighting 2nd 3rd rate japanese forces managed to fight a western army to a deadlock in Korea.

bladerunner

But then again the N Vietnamese though battle experienced had never beaten the US in a conventional battle

pla101prc

they werent fighting conventional wars lol

bladerunner

I always thought that Attack on Hue? during the new Year was regarded as a coventional battle/ or was that only the Viet Cong

sidewinder01

Ya I think part of what you are saying about the WW2 was true that the CCP did avoid fighting major battles with the Japanese after 1941, after a famous campign called "Hundred Regiment Campign" (when translated into English) according to my deceased grand father who actually fought the Japanese understand KMT then CCP. The reason being the ones you stated above as the CCP saw that a civil war was not avoidable.

However, the reason that KMT lost the war was not simply due to the fact that they were tired out from the WW2, nor from fighting warlord (which KMT absorbed into own force). It is taught in college history books here that the KMT had control of all the major cities in China in the beginning of the war. Another fact is that KMT also has a significant advantage in term of men power around 4.x million against 1.x million in the beginning, KMT also had a above the chart advantage in term of firepower, ammunation, equipment and industrial power due to the massive help by the Americans(Chiang's wife visited the White House numerous times asking for the aid of the Americans in which the KMT did receive). I personally think the only reason Chiang lost the war was cuz his government was too corrupt, he being a selfish leader and starving the rest of the country and that Mao and his generials were just better than Chiang to be honest, basically Mao had 99% of the population at that time to back him up...

THe CCP of course received aids from the soviets, but it is nothing compare to the aids by America to help KMT. The KMT had several elite group armies completely equipped with American made equipments.... I am very sure that most of the CCP back then were using type-38 of the Japanese and other outdated small arms with very little modern equipment support such as armoured units and the airforce.(The CCP airforce was not even formed until way after the Korean war.. while the KMT even had the state of art American Air fortress bomber)

bladerunner

Very True Ive even read stories how American airmen were tired of airfreighting her personal belonings around when the space could have been used for valuable supplies, why do you think her sister supported with the CCP

sidewinder01

Well anyways, it was very interesting and valuable to talk to someone who heard stories from both sides and relatively unbiased! We should stop this war tactics talk either regarding Vietnam or WW2 before the mods start to act again, I personally cannot afford another warning haha

Finn McCool

The PLA during the Civil War and early in its early involvement in Korea was indeed outgunned and facing forces that were more heavily armed and better equipped. However the PLA made this work to their advantage. The light infantry forces were able to live of the land and had a much smaller logistics train than the KMT, which was very important when you consider the effect that a hungry army foraging for food could have on local hearts and minds.

More importantly the lighter equipment and foot-based movement of PLA units enabled them to maneuver far more effectively in the close, mountainous terrain that characterized much of China. The decentralized, spread out, hit and run engagements that characterized the Chinese Civil War played to the PLA's strength in this regard.

In Korea, the PLA's lack of heavy equipment allowed them to rely solely on infantry to infiltrate and flank UN positions without sacrificing any combat power. The subsequent battle of attrition was not really the PLA's sort of combat; it resembled nothing so much as WWI. The US had a huge advantage here due to superior firepower but political constraints largely prevented this weakness of the PLA from being exposed after Seoul was recaptured.

__________________
Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter.
-Winston Churchill

vesicles

She was the wife of the founding father of the KMT who advocated alliance with the CCP. I guess she simply took his ideals. However, I do wnoder if Sun was alive and well in the later stages of the CCP vs. KMT conflict. Would he actually still ally with the CCP, or choose to do what Jiang did? After all, Sun's idea of forming alliances with the CCP and the Soviets came out of the nessicity of not having any reliable allies (all the other warlords were all pretty much into solidifying their own territory and power). Once the KMT gained enough power and became the sole ruling party of china, would he still allow the CCP to be around? Who know, he might do what George Washington did and gave away his power and start a true democracy, or what all the other Chinese emperors did and kill off all his enemies...

vesicles

the US govn't welcomed her with open arms on her first trip back to the States. She was even invited to give a speech on the Capital Hill. However, later when they found out that the main influential families of China (the famous 4 families) took most of the donation for themselves and she actually used the money on a shopping spree on her way back to China, they lost their trust for the KMT. So she got cold shoulders when she went back to ask for more money.

pla101prc

lol if you watch the video of her speaking before the house, her english was actually really good LOL.

but i think we actually got a bit far off topic

A.Man

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To Be Continued

vesicles

Yes, because she practically grew up in the States. I think she was 11/12 years old when she came to the States and didn't go back to China 'til she finished college...

A.Man

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