SinoDefence Forum

challenge · 03-30-2008

http://www.wforum.com/newspool/artic...ne/113715.html
according to a Chinese magazine, PLA is developing new generation of SAM system.
the missile will adapt fuse sensor optical/radar,guided by phase array radar, the radar capable ot tracking from 50 up to 100 targets.it will be augment by optical tracking.
the missiles will have 200~250 km range.

Skywatcher · 03-30-2008

But the S-400 has a range of 400km. Surely it can't be that hard to build a larger SAM to go with the 200 to 250km version?

RedMercury · 03-30-2008

Does not specifically mention range, but suggest it is long (200+ km). Also mentions vector thrust and imaging sensors.

Violet Oboe · 03-30-2008

Yes, there is also talk about an ABM version of this ´HQ-9 follow on´ system and most interesting is the rumour that testing of the new misille has already begun in '07!

Probably the system is an indigenous development without more than superficial similiarities with S-400 but of course we will have to ´wait and see´...

planeman · 03-30-2008

very interesting stuff. Range isn't everything.

Surely a next-generation SAM needs to tackle stealth in some way? - can't see how it will mind.

alopes · 03-19-2009

If China is selling now the HQ-9, this could mean that the new system is already developed?

Quote:

Analysis: China exports new SAM missile

by Andrei Chang
Hong Kong (UPI) Mar 18, 2009

China has put its HQ-9 surface-to-air missile on the export market under the name FD-2000. Brochures advertising China's latest missile appeared at the most recent African Ground Force Equipment Exhibition in Cape Town, South Africa, and also at the International Defense Exhibition in Karachi, Pakistan, last November.

The China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corp. is the exporter of the long-range SAM. The name FD-2000 was first revealed by the Kanwa Information Center in 1998 as the export name of the HQ-10; more than 10 years later, China has finally introduced this missile system to the international market.

The People's Liberation Army Air Force has already deployed the HQ-9 at its bases in Xi'an and Lanzhou.

The HQ-9/FD-2000 unveiled at those exhibitions included its guidance radar. A model of this phased array guidance radar was put on display at the PLA equipment exhibition in Hong Kong last summer.

The four-celled HQ-9 launcher is very similar to that of the Russian S-300 SAM. The Chinese introductory brochure said the missile's range for aircraft targets is 7 to 125 kilometers, much lower than the 150-kilometer range of the Russian S-300 PMU1. This is the main reason China continues to import Russia's S-300 PMU2, which has a range of 200 kilometers. The HQ-9/FD-2000's firing altitude is 25 meters to 27 kilometers.

The HQ-9's range for missile targets, or air-to-ground missiles, is 7 to 50 kilometers, with a firing altitude of 1 to 18 kilometers. Its range for cruise missiles is 7 to 15 kilometers, at a firing altitude of 25 meters. The range for ballistic missiles is 7 to 25 kilometers at a firing altitude of 2 to 15 kilometers.

The HQ-9's guidance system is composed of inertia plus uplink and active radar terminal guidance systems. The manufacturer said that its response time is 15 seconds, and it is capable of dealing with 48 targets simultaneously.

The brigade-level combat system is composed of one command vehicle, six control vehicles, six track-radar vehicles, six search-radar vehicles, 48 missile-launch vehicles and 192 rounds of missiles. In addition, there is one positioning vehicle, one communications vehicle, one power supply vehicle and one support vehicle.

The composition of the combat system indicates that one HQ-9 battalion is equipped with eight missile-launch vehicles, which is consistent with what satellite photos of the system have shown.

One industry source said that China has also developed a new version of the HQ-9/FD-2000 for naval ships, which can be installed on the export versions of combat ships. However, the source did not disclose the firing rate of the HQ-9.

A careful comparison of the Chinese FT-2000 anti-radiation missile and the FD-2000 launch system reveals that the transport vehicles of the two missile systems are quite different in exterior structures. Nonetheless, both have 8X8 wheels, and their launch tubes both have 11 reinforcing bands. The FT-2000 has a maximum range of 12 to 100 kilometers, a firing altitude of 3 to 20 kilometers, a missile length of 6.8 meters and a diameter of 466 millimeters.

These figures indicate that the FT-2000 and FD-2000 use different types of missiles. At present, only Pakistan is believed to have expressed an interest in purchasing the FT-2000. But according to a source from Islamabad, even Pakistan is not considering importing the missile system at this stage.

The FD-2000 may be able to compete with the Russian S-300 PMU SAM, which has only a 90-kilometer range, on the international market because of the lower cost of the China-made missile.

But the effective ranges alone show that a substantial technological gap must be overcome before the HQ-9 can replace the S-300 PMU2. Nonetheless, the Chinese designers said that in terms of the technological standard of its computer design and display and control systems, the HQ-9 is superior to the Russian S-300 PMU1.

Given the fact that the HQ-9 has already been approved for export sales, there is a possibility that China has upgraded the missile system on the foundation of the original, bringing it closer to the standard of its Russian competitor.

(Andrei Chang is editor in chief of Kanwa Defense Review Monthly, registered in Toronto.)

Bltizo · 03-19-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by alopes

If China is selling now the HQ-9, this could mean that the new system is already developed?

Interesting article (though there is a lot of subtle anti china hints in there, are the ranges true?), but just because the HQ-9 is able to be exported doesn't necassarily mean a new SAM has been developed.

pla101prc · 03-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by alopes

If China is selling now the HQ-9, this could mean that the new system is already developed?

it could be one of those FC-1/J-10 combinations. HQ-9 is just a familiarization and marketing stage...the PLA prolly prefers S300PMU2 over HQ-9, until the "J-11B" of the AAM come out, then they'll say "screw russian missiles" and cancel a crap load of S-300 contracts.

crobato · 03-29-2009

They have not updated the S-300 contract for a while. Well it is three years already. The last one was delivered in 2006. The HQ-9 may already have reached a stage of acceptability. Likewise, the PLAN hasn't followed up any of the RIF-M beyond the pair used on the 051C.

In4ser · 03-30-2009

If I am not mistaken, didn't China invest into the S-400?

Bltizo · 03-30-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by In4ser

If I am not mistaken, didn't China invest into the S-400?

Yeah that's what it says on Jane's at any rate.

I'm not sure if China invested or helped develop it though. Probably the former.

montyp165 · 03-30-2009

It's a good idea to develop other SAM projects if in case the S-400 program is stalled.

Londo Molari · 04-01-2009

How can a SAM have such a long range? Wouldn't that require the radar or target to be at very very high altitude, due to the curvature of the earth and radar horizon?

I don't understand how such super long range SAMs (200km+) can add value in conventional warfare.

Maybe they are useful against incoming ballistic missiles?

Or does the range not refer to target, but instead to the fuel storage in the missile, which would allow it to chase a retreating target for long distances?

crobato · 04-02-2009

I don't really see the value of super long range either. Even with active guided missiles, it would take a ground radar to que the missile in midphase guidance flight. In theory, that's a job that can also be transferre to an AEW aircraft, but the danger to that, the AEW aircraft might also be a target to the attacker.

I tend to think that high range values when it comes to SAMs deals mostly on ballistic flight, which means the range of the missile as it flies from one point to the ground, and the farthest it can go before it lands on the second point on the ground. Call it ballistic range. Its nice to quote this as "range" since this fattens the marketing perception. although this should be applicable only to surface to surface missiles.

Far more important to a SAM is slant range. That's the range equals the hypotenuse of a triangle where the first point is the launch point, the second point is the target aircraft and the third point is the point of the ground where the aircraft target is on top. The slant of the triangle between the launch (first) point and the target (second) point becomes the slant range. This range tends to be a lot shorter than ballistic range, and also tends to reflect the ground radar slant range as well.

As a very rough rule, let's just assume that slant range is about half of ballistic range. A missile let's say with 160km ballistic range might have a slant range of 80km.

When it comes to missile ads, its hard to say if the figures quoted are slant or ballistic range. Some articles are more honest and quote slant ranges, sometimes they would explicitly mention that. Others may not be as clear. Hence sometimes worth taking the missile range figures with a piece of salt.

Scratch · 04-02-2009

So slant range would be the point where the missile reaches is apogee. That point would also be beyond the point of the motor burn out already. I wonder how effective (maneuverable) such a big missile is at the point where it starts to fall down again. Especially against a fighter type target. It'll bleed of speed / energy pretty fast when pulling several Gs. Effective range would be even shorter than that. So these long range things are probably more something against bombers. A bit like the AIM-54 Phoenix in days gone by, wich also wasn't really maneuverable, though fast. But it already achieved it's goal when it either hit a non maneuvering bomber wich had to press for the target; or forced that bomber to turn around and run.

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