Chinese-European transport helo project

[Sczepan]

in the news of
http://www.tagesschau.de/aktuell/meldungen/0,1185,OID5017350_TYP6_THE_NAV_REF1_BAB,00.html they say:
...Die Chinesen unterzeichneten gleichzeitig eine Vereinbarung mit dem Hubschrauberhersteller Eurocopter über die gemeinsame Entwicklung eines sechs bis sieben Tonnen-Hubschraubers....
in english it say:
... the chinese signed a contract with Eurocopter in common developing of a 6 to 7 ts Helo ....

[New2u]

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tagesschau.de%2Faktue ll%2Fmeldungen%2F0%2C1185%2COID5017350_TYP6_THE_NA V_REF1_BAB%2C00.html&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&safe=off&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools
That link should tell u more about it...

"The Chinese signed at the same time an agreement with the helicopter manufacturer Eurocopter over the common development six to sieved ton helicopter."
what are these sieved ton helicopters???

[Sczepan]

....what are these sieved ton helicopters???
it means "seven"

[MIGleader]

perhaps it is this:
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/helicopter/cmh.asp

a 6000ton dedicated utility helicopter. the reason eurocopter is allowed to participate in this clearly military intent program is because the helicopter can find itself a civilian role, which im sure it will. finally a capable transport to replace the aging black hawks. i dont think the mi-17 is very advaced, only a stopgap measure for this copter.

[tphuang]

This is interesting, this is part of a large scale cooperation between China and Eurocopter. We are basically looking at 3 separate projects, EC175, EC120 and CMH. I'm hoping this would provide the basis for some real advancement in the utility, transport, multirole and naval helicopters:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051205/bs_af...er_051205131711

China in deal with Eurocopter to develop new helicopter

1 hour, 12 minutes ago



PARIS (AFP) - China signed a cooperation deal with the European helicopter manufacturer Eurocopter for the development of a new civil aircraft.


The deal was signed in Paris during a visit to France by Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao.

The new 16-seater helicopter named the EC175 will go into development in 2006 and production is due to start in 2011, Eurocopter -- a subsidiary of the European consortium EADS -- said in a statement.

Eurocopter and the Chinese company ACIC II will each invest 300 million euros (352 million dollars) to develop the new helicopter, the statement said.

"Production will be shared on a 50/50 basis and each country will have its own assembly line. Sales forecasts for this latest-generation helicopter call for 800 to be sold worldwide over the next 20 years," it said.

Eurocopter factory in Marignane, France. China signed a cooperation deal with the European helicopter manufacturer Eurocopter for the development of a new civil aircraft.(AFP/File/Gerard Julien)


http://english.people.com.cn/200309/17/eng20030917_124404.shtml

China to manufacture EC120 helicopter
China is expected to manufacture advanced EC120 helicopters in the near future, said a high ranking official with the Hafei Aviation Industry Co., ltd. Tuesday in Harbin.

"It has been approved in principle to let us build a new assembly line to manufacture EC120 helicopter outside France," said Qu Jingwen, general manager of the company.

Qu said the company was discussing with Euro Copter and the China Aviation Technology Import and Export Corporation the detailed technology and the procedure of obtaining airworthiness licenses. A written agreement is expected to be signed by the end of this year and the first aircraft is expected to roll off line by the end of 2004.

The EC120 is a five-seat light helicopter. It was designed jointly by Euro Copter, China Aviation Technology Import and Export Corporation, Harbin Aviation Industry Co. ltd and SingaporeTechnology Airspace Industry Corporation, in 1990.

Making a successful maiden flight in 1995, the aircraft has obtained licenses in more than 30 countries and regions. Beside being used as common passenger and cargo aircraft, the EC120 can be used for rescue, training, patrol and other missions.

The aim of building the assembly line is to cater to the demand of the Chinese market. In the next 10 years, China is expected to need at least 100 such aircraft, according to Qu.

With a design capability to produce 30 aircraft annually, the assembly line will need total investment of 20 million yuan.

So far, some 400 EC120 have been sold in 38 countries and regions.

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/helicopter/cmh.asp

To meet the growing demands for a medium-weight multirole helicopter from both military and civil sectors, the Chinese helicopter industry is currently developing a 6,000kg class helicopter under the help of international partners. The new 6,000kg class medium helicopter, which has yet been officially named, is sometime referred to as the Chinese Medium Helicopter (CMH) programme.

PROGRAMME

According to the report by Flight International, in May 1997 AVIC II and China National Aero-Technology Import-Export Corporation (CATIC) signed a US$70~80 million contract with Eurocopter France to develop an appropriate rotor system, including the main and tail rotor hubs and blades, for the CMH and possibly the attack helicopter programmes too. In March 1999, Agusta announced that it had signed a US$30 million initial contract with AVIC II and CATIC to develop the gear box and transmission components for the CMH.

At the same time, several Western companies have been competing in providing the CMH with the powerplant. Pratt and Whitney Canada has delivered two of its 1,700hp (1,250kW) PT6C-67C turbo-shafts to China’s Helicopter Research and Development Institute (CHRDI) located at Jingdezhen, Jiangxi Province. Torbomeca has also offered at least one unspecified powerplant, and its new 900kW-class Ardiden turbo-shafts specifically designed for 5/6t class helicopters. Agusta, which is helping China develop the transmission system for the CMH, is providing design expertises which may include the final choice on the powerplant options.

According to Chinese media, the medium helicopter project was initially set as a 5,500kg class design, but later changed to 6.000kg after reviewing the potential market needs. The CMH programme officially began in 2004. Analysis suggests that the first flight of a CMH prototype could take place in 2005 or 2006. This could lead to Chinese certification on a civil variant by 2007. First delivery of the CMH tactical transport to the PLA Army Aviation could occur by 2010~2012, followed by the naval variant scheduled to replace the Z-9C in current service with the PLA Navy.

[tphuang]

more on EC175

Eurocopter Creates a New Helicopter in a Cooperative Venture with China


(Source: Eurocopter; issued Dec. 5, 2005)


In the presence of the Chinese Prime Minister, Mr. Wen Jiabao, and the French Prime Minister, Mr. Dominique de Villepin, a cooperation agreement covering the development of a new helicopter, the EC175, was signed by the President of AVIC II, Mr. Zhang Hongbiao, and the President of Eurocopter, Mr. Fabrice Brégier.

The signing of the Cooperation Contract concluded a year of intense negotiations to detail and develop the general principles laid down in the Agreement signed in October 2004 during President Chirac's official visit to China.

The five-year development phase will be kicked off early in 2006. The new civil helicopter is due to make its first flight in 2009, with European and Chinese certification set for 2011, the year in which production is due to start.

Each of the two companies will invest 300 million euros to develop the new helicopter. Production will be shared on a 50/50 basis and each country will have its own assembly line. Sales forecasts for this latest-generation helicopter call for 800 to be sold worldwide over the next 20 years.

"This historic cooperation agreement with China means that, with the EC175, we will now be able to definitively fill the gap in our helicopter range between the 5-ton Dauphin family and the 10-ton Super Puma family," said Eurocopter President Fabrice Brégier. "This program is formative for Eurocopter. It guarantees more than 30 years activities and the creation of 2,000 high tech jobs for Eurocopter and the company's partners. We expect a large number of sales from 2010 on, both in China and the rest of the world. The arrival of this new helicopter on the world market will insure Eurocopter's expansion in the years to come. Over 20 years, the program will be worth close to 10 billion euros."

The EC175 project follows in the footsteps of the past programs, which spawned increasingly tight cooperative ties between Chinese industry and Eurocopter. The licensed production of the Dauphin in 1980, followed by the industrial cooperation on the EC120 in 1992, paved the way to this more ambitious, equally shared helicopter codevelopment program.

The first codevelopment program of the EC120 light helicopter is a real success story. More than 500 EC120s have been sold throughout the world, and today the helicopter is the best seller in its category. In view of the growing market for helicopters in China, an assembly line was inaugurated in 2004 in the Harbin plant to satisfy the needs of the Chinese domestic market.

Initiated more than thirty years ago, these major cooperative projects uniting Eurocopter and China's aeronautical industry have been given a fresh lease of life by this agreement, which specifically addresses the new needs of the Chinese market.

"Today we are the front runner in the Chinese market with a 45% share in the civil and parapublic helicopter sector," said Mr. Norbert Ducrot, Eurocopter Vice-President for Asia. "Between now and 2015, it is predicted that China will need about 300 helicopters. The needs are colossal. Consider the 2008 Olympic Games in Beijing and the 2010 Universal Exhibition in Shanghai. These two events alone will require the services of a large fleet of helicopters for security, law enforcement, medical assistance, emergency medical evacuation, TV broadcasts, VIP transport, and other activities. Thanks to the strategic cooperation agreement signed today, Eurocopter is not only set to become a privileged partner of the Chinese with respect to its global competitors, but the company will also be able to strengthen its position in a market that is enjoying an outstanding annual growth rate of 10-15%."

The EC175 to be developed by Eurocopter and AVIC II will feature the very latest technological advances in the cockpit and avionics, and with the 5-bladed Spheriflex main rotor and high energy absorbing airframe. The EC175 will be certified for two-pilot IFR and single-pilot VFR operations when carrying up to 16 passengers. The helicopter will have a radius of action of 200 nautical miles at a speed of 280 km/h.

As part of his official stay in France, the Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao will pay a visit to Eurocopter's Marignane site on Tuesday 6 December, where he will be welcomed by Mr. Noël Forgeard, President of EADS, Mr. Jean-Paul Gut COO of EADS, and Mr. Fabrice Brégier, President of Eurocopter.


Eurocopter is a wholly-owned subsidiary of EADS. EADS is a global leader in aerospace, defence and related services. In 2004, EADS generated revenues of EUR 31.8 billion and employed a workforce of about 110,000. The EADS Group includes the aircraft manufacturer Airbus, the world's largest helicopter supplier Eurocopter and the joint venture MBDA, the international leader in missile systems. EADS is the major partner in the Eurofighter consortium, is the prime contractor for the Ariane launcher, develops the A400M military transport aircraft and is the largest industrial partner for the European satellite navigation system Galileo.

[Sczepan]

the same story at http://www.shephard.co.uk/Rotorhub/IndustryNews.aspx?Action=745115149&ID=08d1d136-1414-4e36-8c62-6cf82c03a191

New JV between Eurocopter and China's AVIC II will result in new EC175 model

In the presence of the Chinese Prime Minister, Mr. Wen Jiabao, and the French Prime Minister, Mr. Dominique de Villepin, a cooperation agreement covering the development of a new helicopter, the EC175, was signed by the President of AVIC II, Mr. Zhang Hongbiao, and the President of Eurocopter, Mr. Fabrice Brégier.

.....

[petty officer1]

Intesting picture of a new chinese version black hawk
http://image2.sina.com.cn/jc/upload/71/5169/20060309/1237/247481/247481.jpg
http://image2.sina.com.cn/jc/upload/71/5169/20060309/1237/247481/247482.jpg

But is this real??? I know it is not in any service of PLA.

Future development maybe?

[PLABUDDY]

That doesn't look like a blackhawk to me. Is it possible to provide the source?

Thanks
PLABUDDY
:china:

[bd popeye]

I'm back.:)

I just could not pass this up. No insult intended to anyone but....Why does there always seems to be some sort of picture or artist renderning of PLA equipment that no one can verfiy? Be it a ship, aircraft, missile, tank etc..Why the heck is that? What's the big secrect? It's a friggin' helo! Is the PLAAF going to build this or not? Anybody know? Gotta source for the pic?..The helo looks like a great platform for a light transport helo..Possible ASW variant??? I see a torpedo. Great artist in the PRC.

Someone please post some real information if known.

[Gollevainen]

I think there was some semi-offical thing saying about chinese project of this class of helo, but whit Eurocopter, not Sikorsky...I think Thupuang has better information than I have...

[Sczepan]

looks like Eurocopter designed EC 175

... in combination with the
6T-CLASS MEDIUM HELICOPTER PROGRAMME
=> http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/helicopter/cmh.asp

about the Eurocopter - cooperation see =>
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FREC175.htm
http://www.deagel.com/pandora/ec-175_pm00557001.aspx
http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/HAI/HAI_2005/d2ec175p2.html
Eurocopter and China to develop heavy-lifter EC 175

by Kim Rosenlof

During a Sunday morning press conference here at Heli-Expo, Eurocopter president Fabrice Bregier quietly announced a pending agreement with China to codevelop a new helicopter. Called the EC 175, the new 22,000-pound-gross-weight helicopter will be positioned between the EC 155 and the Super Puma to compete in the heavy-lift market.
.....

[petty officer1]

sina/ military section

I don't think is is real, maybe just a concept

[MIGleader]

The program is real. I think globalsecurities has a page on it too. This is pretty much another one of those china-europe "civilian" helicopter projects thats intended to fill both civilian and military sector markets. Not a bad design idea to me. This copter will work in supplement with future z-8s with uprated engines(Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6B-67A turboshaft engines). Say good bye to the mi-17!!!

[adeptitus]

I'm back.:)
I just could not pass this up. No insult intended to anyone but....Why does there always seems to be some sort of picture or artist renderning of PLA equipment that no one can verfiy? Be it a ship, aircraft, missile, tank etc..Why the
<snip>


Well, what about all those drawings in Popular Science magazine? :) Lots of conceptual art published there.

[renmin]

This thing looks like the front body of a black hawk combined with the rear body of a Z-9. I doubt it is fake. I believe Ive seen this concept, I think Chengdu has the project.

[xihaoli]

Call me stupid, but isn't that the 6-ton MHP co-operation deal with the EU?

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/helicopter/cmh.asp

Sure the windows look wrong but......

[renmin]

Call me stupid, but isn't that the 6-ton MHP co-operation deal with the EU?

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/helicopter/cmh.asp

Sure the windows look wrong but......
No, thats not the same thing. they do look sorta similar, but the front is way off and so are the windows. These arent the same.

[bd popeye]

Well, what about all those drawings in Popular Science magazine? :) Lots of conceptual art published there.

Artist conceptions...It's done worldwide. There are dreamers everywhere.
I have not read Popular science or Mechnics since before I joined the USN in 1971.:o

I just want a little more info that's all. That helo looks good to me. I worked on helos 5 of the 20 years I was in the USN. I'm sure there is a project in the works. The PLA needs transports helos.

[tphuang]

well come back, Popeye!

We know that there is a Z-15 designation handed out. Other than that, I'm not sure which helicopter it's been assigned to. Maybe it's EC-175 or maybe it's CMH or maybe those two helicopters are the same. Maybe it's one of those Z-11, EC-120 things. Where China gets experience from co-developing with Eurocopter and then develop a helicopter of its own in the same class. I don't know, China tends to keep the helicopter things even more wrapped up than fighters, because it can actually get away with using Western engines for its military helicopters by just denying its existence and saying that it's purchased for civilian models.

[bd popeye]

well come back, Popeye!

We know that there is a Z-15 designation handed out. Other than that, I'm not sure which helicopter it's been assigned to. Maybe it's EC-175 or maybe it's CMH or maybe those two helicopters are the same. Maybe it's one of those Z-11, EC-120 things. Where China gets experience from co-developing with Eurocopter and then develop a helicopter of its own in the same class. I don't know, China tends to keep the helicopter things even more wrapped up than fighters, because it can actually get away with using Western engines for its military helicopters by just denying its existence and saying that it's purchased for civilian models.

Thanks alot! That's good info. Did not know that they could ue the import engines. That make a big difference. Now I understand the secrecry. Thanks again....

[tphuang]

Thanks alot! That's good info. Did not know that they could ue the import engines. That make a big difference. Now I understand the secrecry. Thanks again....
yeah, that's P&W Canada for you. Apparently, it's been getting through the export control under the guise of being used as the engine for AB-139 and CMH. I'm talking about PT6C-67C, which is being used on Z-10.

[Totoro]

I do hope that's not the helicopter to replace the mi17 series, but rather complement it. Perhaps in pure lifting power it can match mi8 / early mi17 models but its internal space is smaller. And mi17s ability to ferry 24 equipped troops can not be matched with this model. That being said, having twice as many copters to carry half as many troops each has its benefits too. It does look like a very good multipurpose design and would love to see it in the hundreds in the future PLA, as long as its not replacing mi17s. China is lacking helicopters as it is, first it should get the total numbers up before it starts replacing older models. (as long as they can fly, of course)

[Deino]

well come back, Popeye!

We know that there is a Z-15 designation handed out. Other than that, I'm not sure which helicopter it's been assigned to. Maybe it's EC-175 or maybe it's CMH or maybe those two helicopters are the same. Maybe it's one of those Z-11, EC-120 things. Where China gets experience from co-developing with Eurocopter and then develop a helicopter of its own in the same class. I don't know, China tends to keep the helicopter things even more wrapped up than fighters, because it can actually get away with using Western engines for its military helicopters by just denying its existence and saying that it's purchased for civilian models.


That's exactly the piont !!! There are so many rumours gooing on once regarding a transport version of the Z-10, which noe seems to be the CMH (or was alt least taken over by) ... now the EC-175 in cooperation with Eurocopter which is sometimes labeled Z-15 and then there are rumours about yet another helicopter programe in the 10t class to replace the Z-8 and Hips !

Additional if the designation Z-15 is valid ... what are then the "missing" Z-12 and Z-13 ????

Just again: "China tends to keep the helicopter things even more wrapped up than fighters" ... and as I said before: these are so interesting times !:china:

Cheers, Deino

[bd popeye]

yeah, that's P&W Canada for you. Apparently, it's been getting through the export control under the guise of being used as the engine for AB-139 and CMH. I'm talking about PT6C-67C, which is being used on Z-10.

Let's face this. P&W, GE and RR(Rolls Royce) make the most reliable aircraft engines in the world. The PLAAF is smart to use them. That alone would increase the life of the aircraft a great deal. Good move!.

[walter]

okay, I found the latest artist's impression of the EC175 and it looks strikingly similar to the pics posted here. There are also noticeable changes compared to the picture of a model found on sinodefence. here it is:

http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=11895

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/03/10/Navigation/177/205375/Picture+First+images+of+new+Eurocopter++AVIC+II+EC 175+Chinese.html

However, just because these pics appear to be the same helo, we still haven't seen a source for what was posted at the beginning of this thread--it could just as easily just be some wishful thinking on someone's part. Then again, it isn't hard to imagine this helo entering service in PLA, PLAF or PLAN.

[FreeAsia2000]

okay, I found the latest artist's impression of the EC175 and it looks strikingly similar to the pics posted here. There are also noticeable changes compared to the picture of a model found on sinodefence. here it is:

http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=11895

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/03/10/Navigation/177/205375/Picture+First+images+of+new+Eurocopter++AVIC+II+EC 175+Chinese.html

However, just because these pics appear to be the same helo, we still haven't seen a source for what was posted at the beginning of this thread--it could just as easily just be some wishful thinking on someone's part. Then again, it isn't hard to imagine this helo entering service in PLA, PLAF or PLAN.

Is it just me or does that photo look a bit re-touched ?

Also it seems a strange design for a combat helicopter

[tphuang]

Let's face this. P&W, GE and RR(Rolls Royce) make the most reliable aircraft engines in the world. The PLAAF is smart to use them. That alone would increase the life of the aircraft a great deal. Good move!.
also, fuel efficient too. That's what it's basically doing with Y-8F600 too. It calls it a civilian aircraft, but we all know it's for military purposes. And of course, they are doing this through Canada, since the export controls aren't as scrutinized.

As for EC-175, it's not a combat helicopter. It's a civilian helicopter that China will probably convert into doing some kind of military role. Make no mistake, China's main use for this is civlian duties, but it will probably also make military versions of it.

[bd popeye]

I agree along the lines of FreeAsia2000. The pic does look retouched and that helo does not look military at all in that picture. It looks like a corprate helo. You know..the kind that ferries CEO's and other head cheese types around. But..helo's are very versitale. So no telling what sort of varaint the PLA will come up with.

[MIGleader]

I do hope that's not the helicopter to replace the mi17 series, but rather complement it. Perhaps in pure lifting power it can match mi8 / early mi17 models but its internal space is smaller. And mi17s ability to ferry 24 equipped troops can not be matched with this model. That being said, having twice as many copters to carry half as many troops each has its benefits too. It does look like a very good multipurpose design and would love to see it in the hundreds in the future PLA, as long as its not replacing mi17s. China is lacking helicopters as it is, first it should get the total numbers up before it starts replacing older models. (as long as they can fly, of course)

Purchases of the mi-17 v7 will stop very soon. with the introduction of the z-8a into PLA service, the mi-17s days are numbered. Right now, the v-7 model still has superior performance to the z-8. But the z-8 has more carrying capacity(9000kg and 38 soldiers) and a new model z-8f is set to coem out, with new pratt and witney engines.

Btw,
We may be seeing a test flight of a CMH this year, and deliveries may begin in four years.

[Sczepan]

Intesting picture of a new chinese version black hawk

My 5 cent - its a cooperation design with Eurocopter or Agusta (Eurocopter, Agusta, Fokker ar part of the NH Industries (NHI)).

see this pix
Agusta AB 139 I-ANEW
http://www.fly-net.org/aeromedia/a139anew.jpg
http://image2.sina.com.cn/jc/upload/71/5169/20060309/1237/247481/247481.jpg
http://www.marine.nl/images/pr%2002_nh-90_tcm10-4350.jpgNH-90

[walter]

Is it just me or does that photo look a bit re-touched ?

Also it seems a strange design for a combat helicopter

As I stated, it is an artist's impression, not a photo.

And as tphuang already stated, the cooperation between AVICII and Eurocopter states the EC175 will be a civilian helo, but as most here seem to think, the Chinese would probably find various roles for it in the military: special forces/troop insertion, search and rescue, possible ASW variant. I personally don't see why this design looks strange for any of these roles. None of this means PLA will do any of this for sure.

[tphuang]

According to this, Z-15 (EC-175) is set to fly in 2009, actually it contains your ussual Chinese boasting about Harbin (HAIG)'s corporation with Eurocopter has really taken off, 8 HC-120 rolled out of HAIG in 2005. And that this EC-175 venture will make HAIG an equal partner and put HAIG at the world level in terms of manufacturing and designing. Interestingly enough, I read that China has ordered 150 EC-120 for the army http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/hc-120.htm
lol, it's going to take a while to produce that if the production rate continues at 8 a year.
[转载] 哈航与欧直联合制造直十五将于2009年首飞

哈航与欧直联合制造直十五将于2009年首飞

　　[国防科工委新闻宣传中心讯] 继引进直九生产专利、联合研制EC120直升机之后，哈航集团与欧洲直升机公司的第三次整机合作又全面展开 ——双方已决定各投入50%的研发费用，共同设计、研发技术先进的中型民用直十五直升机，并在哈尔滨市和法 国各建一条总装生产线，在两地同时生产这种直升机，面向全球市场销售。这项合作协议已于 2005年12月5日在法国巴黎签署，双方工程技术人员目前已开始进行该型号直升机的联合设计工作，预计2 009年实现直十五首飞。
]
　　据介绍，直十五属于6吨级直升机，是目前世界上使用量较大的中型直升机，可广泛用于运输、安全、搜救等 民用领域。中欧联合研制的直十五直升机将弥补我国此前在这个级别直升机生产上的空白。业内人士估计，未来1 0年内，全球6吨级直升机的市场需求会超过800架。

　　哈航集团与欧洲直升机公司的第一次合作是在上世纪80年代初，哈航从欧洲直升机公司引进了直九直升机生 产专利，当时的直九机整个型号的开发设计均由法方完成。1992年开始的第二次合作，是双方联合研制EC1 20直升机，哈航在这次合作中占了24%的工作份额和项目份额，该机型的总装一直由法方独自完成，哈航集团 直到2005年才建成总装生产线并于当年交付了8架机。这次合作，哈航从设计到研发再到生产，均与法方平分 秋色，这标志着哈航的直升机研发和生产能力都已迈上了国际先进水平。（李志刚）

[swimmerXC]

新网3月
14日电据国防科工委消息，继引进直九生产专利、联合研制EC120直升机之后，哈航集团与欧洲直升机公司 的第三次整机合作又全面展开——双方已决定各投入50%的研发费用，共同设计、研发技术先进的中型民用直十 五直升机，并在哈尔滨市和法国各建一条总装生产线，在两地同时生产这种直升机，面向全球市场销 售。

这项合作协议已于2005年12月5日在法国巴黎签署，双方工程技术人员目前已开始进行该型号直升机的联合 设计工作，预计2009年实现直十五首飞。

据介绍，直十五属于6吨级直升机，是目前世界上使用量较大的中型直升机，可广泛用于运输、安全、搜救等民用 领域。中欧联合研制的直十五直升机将弥补中国此前在这个级别直升机生产上的空白。业内人士估计，未来10年 内，全球6吨级直升机的市场需求会超过800架。

哈航集团与欧洲直升机公司的第一次合作是在上世纪80年代初，哈航从欧洲直升机公司引进了直九直升机生产专 利，当时的直九机整个型号的开发设计均由法方完成。1992年开始的第二次合作，是双方联合研制EC120 直升机，哈航在这次合作中占了24%的工作份额和项目份额，该机型的总装一直由法方独自完成，哈航集团直到 2005年才建成总装生产线并于当年交付了8架机。这次合作，哈航从设计到研发再到生产，均与法方平分秋色 ，这标志着哈航的直升机研发和生产能力都已迈上了国际先进水平。

Source (http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2006-03/15/content_4304921.htm)

[tphuang]

On Z-9 this time, an order of two to be exported to Laos. With export orders to Pakistan, Mali and Mauritanus + Laos, Z-9 has to be the most successful Chinese helicopter program to date. On top of that, the domestic orders for Z-9G seems to be quite high.
http://jczs.sina.com.cn/2006-03-28/1504360269.html
[国防科工委新闻宣传中心讯] 2006年3月24日，哈尔滨航空工业(集团)有限公司与老挝签订了两架直九直升机出口销售合同，这是哈航 集团直九直升机首次出口老挝，两架直升机将于2007年一季度交付。

　　据了解，直九直升机于1992年通过了国产化鉴定，在国内军民用领域已形成一定的使用规模，并多次配合 我国南极和北极科学考察。2000年开始，直九直升机陆续出口马里、毛里塔尼亚、巴基斯坦等国。此次签订的 这两架直九直升机一架为公务用机，一架为物资运输机。

[sumdud]

Purchases of the mi-17 v7 will stop very soon. with the introduction of the z-8a into PLA service, the mi-17s days are numbered. Right now, the v-7 model still has superior performance to the z-8. But the z-8 has more carrying capacity(9000kg and 38 soldiers) and a new model z-8f is set to coem out, with new pratt and witney engines.

Btw,
We may be seeing a test flight of a CMH this year, and deliveries may begin in four years.

Don't be so sure, man. The Z-8A's testing has not been the best lately. It has been to my knowledge been reported failures.

Also, the Z-8A uses 3 engines, sort of too much for its specs. And 9000 kg is its normal take off weight, not payload, which is only 5000 kg external. Range is 500 km.

The V7 however uses only 2 engines, flying to I believe 890 km, holds 5 tonnes in and 6 tonnes out, 30-40 soldiers.

Practically speaking, the V7 is better still.

But of course I wouldn't mind China copying the Mi-17 and fitting them with PT6B-67A. :china: :D

These copters are to me China's heavy class helicopters, while the Z-9 serves as a lightweight (and very successful) copter with excellent range.
(But fitting weapons on them is just purely impractical..... The copter doesn't do well as an AH.:confused: Desperate.......)

BTW, who here thinks the pylons on Chinese copters should be given a wing?

[tphuang]

more on ec-175

Sept. 14 (Bloomberg) -- European Union state aid regulators
approved 100 million euros ($127 million) of French financing to
European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co. for the development of a
civilian helicopter in a joint venture with Chinese partners.
France will be permitted to finance 29 percent of the
research and development budget for the medium-sized helicopter to
be produced as soon as 2011 by EADS's Eurocopter unit, according
to the European Commission, the EU's executive arm in Brussels.
Eurocopter may have to pay back the French state, which owns
15 percent of EADS, depending on the commercial prospects of the
helicopter, according to the commission.
``Public-sector involvement would aim to reduce the
technological risk and encourage the firm to undertake more
extensive and more ambitious research,'' the commission said in a
statement today.
The EC175 will be able to fly in worse weather than current
helicopters with improved safety and less environmental impact,
the commission said. In an online newsletter, Eurocopter describes
the 16-passenger craft as designed for police, rescue and fire-
fighting duties as well as passenger transport.
``I am happy to be able to approve an aid project which
promotes research in a leading-edge technology sector,''
Competition Commissioner Neelie Kroes said in today's statement.
Kroes has called it her top priority to overhaul business subsidy
practices, reducing such aid and steering it away from older
manufacturing industries toward faster-growing areas.

[tphuang]

previously, I had thought China abandonned on CMH (Chinese Medium Helicopter aka Z-12) in favour of Z-15 (EC-175), but it appears that both are ongoing and there is also another light helicopter project in development.


China AVIC II to invest over 3 bln yuan in helicopter industry - report
BEIJING (XFN-ASIA) - China Aviation Industry Corp II (AVIC II) plans to invest
more than three bln yuan in the nation's fledgling civil helicopter industry
over the next five years, state media reported.
Citing AVIC II deputy chief engineer Ni Xianping, the China Daily said the
money will be spent on research and development, as well as cooperative projects
with foreign counterparts.
"In the next five years, we will stick to a market-oriented approach,
boosting the helicopter industry in terms of R&D and manufacturing capability,
marketing and servicing," the newspaper quoted Ni as saying.
"After figuring out our clients' specific market demands we will develop new
products and redesign existing ones to meet them," he added.
Specific projects include a new commercial helicopter, which will be
entirely self-developed, the newspaper said.
The helicopter will be certified and enter service during the 12th Five-Year
Plan period, which runs from 2011-2015. Ni did not disclose the cost of the
project, the newspaper said.
He added that AVIC II is also working on a light helicopter with a foreign
partner, without elaborating.
The company last year agreed to jointly develop a multi-purpose helicopter
with Eurocopter, an affiliate of the European Aeronautic Defence and Space
Company (EADS).
AVIC II will invest 300 mln eur in the Eurocopter program to 2015.


http://english.people.com.cn/200609/28/eng20060928_307078.html

Helicopter firm to pour US$380m into R&D
font size ZoomIn ZoomOut

China Aviation Industry Corp II (AVIC II) plans to pour more than 3 billion yuan (US$380 million) into the nation's fledgling civil helicopter industry.

The money will be spent on research and development (R&D) and co-operative projects with foreign counterparts during the 11th Five-Year Plan (2006-10).

"In the next five years, we will stick to a market-oriented approach, boosting the helicopter industry in terms of R&D and manufacturing capability, marketing and servicing," Ni Xianping, deputy chief engineer of AVIC II, the country's only State-owned helicopter maker, told China Daily.

"After figuring out our clients' specific market demands we will develop new products and redesign existing ones to meet them."

Specific projects in AVIC II's five-year plan include a brand new 5.5 to 6-ton commercial helicopter, which will be entirely self-developed, and several joint programmes with international counterparts, said Ni.

During the 10th Five-Year Plan period (2001-05), AVIC II made significant breakthroughs in mastering new key rotor, transmission and avionic systems technologies under the international China Medium Helicopter programme.

Those developments are now allowing the company to work on its new 5.5 to 6 ton multi-purpose commercial helicopter, which will fill a blank in the domestic market.

"Therefore, it will take less investment to roll out the new helicopter," said Ni, although he did not reveal how much the new project will cost.

The new helicopter will be powered by the latest version of the PT6C-67C engine, produced by Canada's Pratt & Whitney. It is intended to fulfil domestic needs for passenger and cargo transport, offshore services, and corporate use.

The major development work for this version of helicopter is scheduled to be completed during the 11th Five-Year Plan period, and the helicopter will be certified and enter service during the 12th Five-Year Plan period (2011-15).

Ni believes working on the helicopter's development themselves will enhance AVIC II's engineers' R&D capability, allowing them to grasp core technologies in helicopter design and production. Meanwhile international co-operation should provide an opportunity for China to roll out advanced products in the short-term.

The deputy chief engineer said AVIC II is currently working on a one-ton light helicopter with a foreign partner. He could not release more details due to commercial reasons.

"Negotiations are still ongoing. We expect to reach a final agreement soon," said Ni.

AVIC II last year hammered out a deal with Eurocopter, an affiliate of the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company, to jointly develop a multi-purpose helicopter.

The Chinese national helicopter maker will invest 300 million euros (US$360 million) in the joint programme, which it is an equal partner in, during the 11th and 12th Five-Year Plan period.

"It is, so far, the largest co-operative programme we have been involved in. The designing of the helicopter is running to schedule," said Ni.

Regarding co-operation with foreign partners, AVIC II is also working at sub-contracting manufacturing projects.

The Chinese helicopter and light aircraft maker is busy negotiating with a Western counterpart on a new outsourcing manufacturing contract. The contract will produce the airframe of a helicopter for the Western company.

"The value involved will not be significant. However, the sub-contracts will keep us well informed and updated on the latest developments in the global helicopter manufacturing industry," said Ni.

AVIC II already produces the airframe of the US Bell 430 helicopter under a sub-contract.

Besides the new helicopters AVIC II plans to make either by itself or in partnership with international counterparts, the company is also to redesign its existing products and produce more tailor-made new models catering for clients' specific demands.

The modifications and customization will involve AVIC II's flagship products, such as the Z-11, Z-11MB1, Z-9A and Z-9H425.

"We believe civil helicopters have a bright market perspective with the Beijing Olympics and Shanghai World Expo on the horizon," said Ni. "As market demand increases, the industry will provide more opportunities for further technical development."

According to AVIC II's market research, there will be a robust market demand for as many as 2,763 civil helicopters in China by 2026.

The State has made developing helicopters and other aircraft a clear priority during the 11th Five-Year Plan period. Yet despite the strong market potential, there is a big restriction on AVIC II's plans.

"The country's long-standing restriction on the use of airspace below 3,000 metres is a big concern," said Ni.

It was once reported that China is likely to open most or even all of its low-altitude airspace around 2010. But the Air Traffic Control Committee of the Central Military Commission has never confirmed the news.

AVIC II's ultimate target is to squeeze into the top level of world helicopter makers by 2020, in terms of both product portfolio and production value.

[tphuang]

a little more on the Chinese civilian helicopter industry

China's aviation sector is expected to need 2,763 civil
helicopters of all types between 2006 and 2026, said Zhang
Hongbiao, general manger of the China No.2 Aviation
Industrial Corporation (CAIC).

Zhang said that his company would take about 15 years to
grapple the core technologies in helicopter design and
production, and try to make China one of the world's top
helicopter producers by 2020.

The country's helicopter industry began in 1956, and over the
past 50 years it has produced more than 800 helicopters
from 30 models. China has also participated in the design
and production of international models including the EC120,
S92 and CA109.

Note how the Chinese predicted number is far different from the Russian claim of a need for 10000 helicopters.

[tphuang]

China gets most of its engines from turbomeca, a little more on this. We know that Z-9 uses Arriel-2C for example
http://www.shephard.co.uk/Rotorhub/Default.aspx?Action=745115149&ID=b037374d-909
2-4b63-806a-1c15c3b4b001

China: Turbomeca and Beijing Changkong Machinery form joint venture company

During Air Show China (Zhuhai, China), Turbomeca (SAFRAN Group) signed a "Joint
Venture Contract" with Beijing Changkong Machinery (AVIC II company), in view of
creating the first joint venture company between Turbomeca and an AVIC II
company: Beijing Turbomeca Changkong Aero-Engine Control Equipment Co. Ltd.

This joint venture will assemble and test hydro mechanical units of turboshaft
engines for both Turbomeca and Beijing Changkong, for their respective markets.
It will be located 50 km North of Beijing in the Chinese partner new plant,
located in a high-tech park.

Fuel Control Units (FCU) and Hydro Mechanical Units (HMU) will be assembled and
tested in this new joint venture. The joint venture entry into operation with
its relevant production agreement is targeted to be in October 2007.

Among the control system concerned, the WZ8C HMU (licensed Arriel 2C) powering
the H425 helicopter designed and produced by Harbin Aviation Industry, an AVIC
II company.

The joint venture intends to hold the JAR 21G Approval.

This agreement marks a major advance in the development of Turbomeca's
helicopter business in China and the role Turbomeca intends to play, as well as
for SAFRAN's expanding range of partnerships in the country.

In China, one helicopter out of two is equipped with Turbomeca engines or
licensed products. Today, about 500 Turbomeca engines are being operated in
China.

As a reminder, a cooperation framework agreement was signed in 2005 with AVIC II
(China Aviation Industry Corporation II), concerning the delivery of 200 Arriel
2C helicopter turboshaft engines to China, along with a partial production
license. Turbomeca and AVIC II started working together in the 1980s, with a
license for the Arriel 1 engine, initiated by China National South Aero Engine
Corporation (SAEC).

About Turbomeca

[tphuang]

a little bit on the 10 tonne transport helicopter I guess?

anyhow, maybe they are trying to develop something like Mi-17?

Kyiv, November 10 (Interfax-Ukraine) - Ukraine is considering
taking part in a project to create a mid-range transport helicopter for
China, a defense establishment source told Interfax-Ukraine.
Among possible participants in the project, which is to start next
year, are the Motor-Sich (Zaporizhia), Konotop and Vinnytsia aircraft
repair plants. Russia's Mila Design Bureau is believed to be taking part
in the project as a consultant.
Currently, Motor-Sich is supplying China, under a contract
concluded in spring, its 19/64 3/643-117 3/64 13/64 engines for Mi-171(C)
helicopters
made by Russia's Ulan-Ude aircraft plant.

[tphuang]

this is quite an interesting article
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/Get/net/net/11280937907.htm
will translate it later
正在腾飞的中国直升机一访中航二集团直升机设计所副所长黄传跃博士

（兵工科技增刊珠展特辑）

　　本刊记者齐宇　芳妮

　　中航三集团直升机设计所（中国直升机设计研究所）是我国最大的直升机设计单位，我国许多直升机的设计都 出自该所。本次航展上，引人注目的两款新型直升机一６吨级先进、中型、通用直升机和１０吨级通用运输直升机 都与该所有关。这两款直升机的出现，使我国直升机技术达到了第三代甚至有些还超过了第三代的水平。为此，本 刊记者采访了该所副所长黄传跃博士。

◆主要用于民用运输，但也可以军用

　　问：我们一直都很关注国内新型的６吨级通用直升机和１０吨级通用直升机，您能给我们介绍一下这两个项目 的研制背景吗？
　　答：６吨级通用直升机是我们与欧直的一个合作项目。该国对此项目的型号命名为ＥＣ１７５，我们直接叫做 直１５。６吨级别的通用直升机主要是面对国际市场上比较先进的民用６吨级直升机市场。

　　问：为什么要定位在６吨级这个级别上呢？
　　答：因为６吨级直升机在使用吨位方面最适合于民用运输，比如海上、油田运输等方面，我个人认为６吨级是 最实用的吨位级别。太大的话，成本就要增加；太小的话，它又满足不了有效商载的要求。

　　问：那１０吨级别呢？
　　答：１０吨级别是一个比较大的通用民用运输直升机，它的背景主要是未来的运输事宜，比如油田上的运输等 。

　　问：这种民用直升机有没有军用的潜力呢？
　　答：一般情况下，直升机完全可以军民两用。

　　问：这两型６吨、１０吨级直升机，相比以前的运输直升机，比如直８，在技术上有哪些进步之处？为什么要 开发一种新的直升机呢？
　　答：这两型直升机技术实际上使我国达到了第三代或超过了第三代的直升机。６吨级直升机的最大特点在于它 的旋翼结构，还有采用了复合材料、桨毂式升力结构形式等，都很有特色。

　　问：你能举例讲讲国产第一代、第二代、第三代直升机的相关情况吗？
　　答：前面的二代就不用讲了，现在的先进直升机都是三代机，或三代机的升级型。＂黑鹰＂直升机是二代到三 代间的机型。我们现在搞的１０吨级直升机，性能肯定会超过＂黑鹰＂直升机。尤其是在使用材料方面、航电系统 方面、飞控方面，肯定都会比＂黑鹰＂直升机强。６吨级民用直升机就更不用说了，在２０１２年投产的时候，它 应该是世界上最先进的民用直升机。目前民用直升机上的技术，６吨级直升机都有采用，它应该能适用最新的各式 航管。

　　问：按您的意思，世界上直升机目前先进的技术都能用在我们的６吨级直升机上？是否可以这样认为，在这一 点上，我国的直升机设计水平已经很高了呢？
　　答：现在我国的民用直升机设计水平在世界上还不能说是最高的，因为直升机是军民通用的。只能说，我国在 第三代直升机的设计上，已经掌握了相关的设计技术。现在的通用直升机项目的关键部分，比如航电、传动系统等 ，都是由欧直来完成的。

　　问：那动力系统呢？
　　答：动力系统是一样的，要么是法国透博梅卡发动机，要么是加拿大普惠发动机。加普惠发动机就是ＰＴ６系 列的发动机。

　　问：对于军民两用技术来说，６吨级是一个很敏感的级别，如果要大量采购的话，能否用于军用 ？
　　答：６吨级别直升机的定位就只是民用机型。

　　问：１０吨级别的直升机呢？
　　答：也是一样的，都主要是用作运输用。除非是有什么特殊用途要求。

　　问：那它在未来能否实现搜索、救援等改装？
　　答：完全可以。

　　问：舰艇起降，也可以吗？
　　答：可以的，现在国内已有的机型还没有这种能力，但国外已大量应用了。我们正在联合研制的６吨级直升机 有这种能力。

　　问：舰艇起降对直升机的降落有什么特殊要求？
　　答：对直升机的降落要求并不是太复杂。但如果是小飞机要停在小舰艇上，由于小舰艇的运动参数比较大，稍 微一动，直升机的变化就特别大。因此直９就专门设计有一个＂鱼叉＂系统，降落时就可以使用，＂啪＂地插进去 就可以了。

◆与欧直的合作坚持平等的原则

　　问：在跟欧直的合作中，你们主要承担哪些具体工作？
　　答：我们主要是承担旋翼和结构设计。其他方面，还承担了燃油系统等。此外，将来的许多试验工作，比如清 理试验工作等都是中方的工作范围。

　　问：合作中，你们主要承担多少工作量呢？
　　答：虽然合同中说是各有５０％的合作量，但欧直的工作量应该是超过了５０％。毕竟他们的技术比我们要先 进一些。

　　问：那欧直给你们都提供了什么样的技术支持？
　　答：欧直没有给我们提供什么技术支持。具体来讲，就是一架直升机劈成两半，一家一半。欧直不可能输送给 我们什么技术，我们也不可能输送什么技术给欧直。

◆机体只是个平台，有需求就能改进

　　问：６吨级直升机除过搜索、救援外，能否实现反潜等工作？
　　答：实际上，直升机只是给你提供了一个平台。我们主要是设计直升机，它的运载能力是固定的，它的空间也 是固定的，至于你要装什么具体的设备，那是用户的需求。比如是海岸警卫队或海上搜索队，那他们就要来和我们 进行协调，我们根据他们要求的尺寸、搜索装备及其他方面的要求进行更改，这在设计时就直接留好了空间；如果 他们要用于反潜，情况是一样的。总的说就是用户提要求，我们再细化和改装。

　　问：这就是说对直升机本身的大小有些要求了，只有这个平台适合才能做相适应的事情。我看有些报道说直９ 的４吨有些偏小了，如果是６吨级的话就应该能好些。请问国内说的６吨级别在国际上相当于其他直升机的那类级 别呢？
　　答：就是６吨级别的，没有什么差别。

[tphuang]

translation
问：我们一直都很关注国内新型的６吨级通用直升机和１０吨级通用直升机，您能给我们介绍一下这 两个项目 的研制背景吗？
we are all very interested in the new 6 tonne multipurpose helicopter and 10 tonne multipurpose helicopter
　　答：６吨级通用直升机是我们与欧直的一个合作项目。该国对此项目的型号命名为ＥＣ１７５， 我们直接叫做 直１５。６吨级别的通用直升机主要是面对国际市场上比较先进的民用６吨级直升机市场。
6 tonne is joint venture with Eurocopter. It's called EC-175 and we call it Z-15. 6 tonne helicopter mainly is for the international market.
　　问：为什么要定位在６吨级这个级别上呢？
why choose the 6 tonne level
　　答：因为６吨级直升机在使用吨位方面最适合于民用运输，比如海上、油田运输等方面，我个人 认为６吨级是 最实用的吨位级别。太大的话，成本就要增加；太小的话，它又满足不了有效商载的要求。
6 tonne helicopter is most useful for civlian transportation, eg sea and oil transportation. It's the most useful tonnage class. If larger, cost of operation increases. Smaller, doesn't fulfill payload requirement
　　问：那１０吨级别呢？
what about the 10 tonne class
　　答：１０吨级别是一个比较大的通用民用运输直升机，它的背景主要是未来的运输事宜，比如油 田上的运输等 。
it's a large civlian multipurpose helicopter. it makes future trnasportation
　　问：这种民用直升机有没有军用的潜力呢？
any military use for this
　　答：一般情况下，直升机完全可以军民两用。
in normal situation, helicopter are dual use.
　　问：这两型６吨、１０吨级直升机，相比以前的运输直升机，比如直８，在技术上有哪些进步之 处？为什么要 开发一种新的直升机呢？
how do they compare with previous transportation helicopter like Z-8, what kind of improvements, why the need for new helicopter?
　　答：这两型直升机技术实际上使我国达到了第三代或超过了第三代的直升机。６吨级直升机的最 大特点在于它 的旋翼结构，还有采用了复合材料、桨毂式升力结构形式等，都很有特色。
these two helicopter's technology allow our nation to reach 3rd or pass 3rd generation helicopter. 6 tonne helo's specialty is its rotor struction, also uses composite materail, lift rotor and such, all are unique.
　　问：你能举例讲讲国产第一代、第二代、第三代直升机的相关情况吗？
can you talk about the 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation helo?
　　答：前面的二代就不用讲了，现在的先进直升机都是三代机，或三代机的升级型。＂黑鹰＂直升机是二代到三 代间的机型。我们现在搞的１０吨级直升机，性能肯定会超过＂黑鹰＂直升机。尤其是在使用材料方面、航电系统 方面、飞控方面，肯定都会比＂黑鹰＂直升机强。６吨级民用直升机就更不用说了，在２０１２年投产的时候，它 应该是世界上最先进的民用直升机。目前民用直升机上的技术，６吨级直升机都有采用，它应该能适 用最新的各式 航管。
no need to talk about first 2 generations. Most advanced helo are 3rd generation. Blackhawk is a 2nd to 3rd generation helo. Our 10 tonne helo's performance will definitely exceed blackhawk, specially in material, avionics, flight control, definitely superior to blackhawk, 6 tonne helo is even better, when it is produced in 2012, it will be the world's most advanced civilian helo. the 6 tonne helo uses pretty much the world's most advanced components in every area.
　　问：按您的意思，世界上直升机目前先进的技术都能用在我们的６吨级直升机上？是否可以这样 认为，在这一 点上，我国的直升机设计水平已经很高了呢？
you are saying, the world's most advanced helicopter technology are going to be on our 6 onne helicopter, does that mean our helicopter design capability is very advanced?
　　答：现在我国的民用直升机设计水平在世界上还不能说是最高的，因为直升机是军民通用的。只 能说，我国在 第三代直升机的设计上，已经掌握了相关的设计技术。现在的通用直升机项目的关键部分，比如航电 、传动系统等 ，都是由欧直来完成的。
our helicopter design cannot say is the best, because helicopter is for dual use. I can only say in 3rd generation helo design, we have control of enough design technology. The more important parts like rotor and avionics are all developed by Eurocopter.
　　问：那动力系统呢？
what rotor system?
　　答：动力系统是一样的，要么是法国透博梅卡发动机，要么是加拿大普惠发动机。加普惠发动机 就是ＰＴ６系 列的发动机。
rotor system is the same, uses France's turbomeneca engine, or Canada P&w engine. P&W engne are the PT6 series engine
　　问：对于军民两用技术来说，６吨级是一个很敏感的级别，如果要大量采购的话，能否用于军用 ？
6 tonne is a sensitive class. For large purchase, is it possible for military usage
　　答：６吨级别直升机的定位就只是民用机型。
6 tonne helo's use is for civilian model
　　问：１０吨级别的直升机呢？
what about 10 tonne?
　　答：也是一样的，都主要是用作运输用。除非是有什么特殊用途要求。
mostly transportation unless there is special requirements?
　　问：那它在未来能否实现搜索、救援等改装？
what about search and rescue and such modification?
　　答：完全可以。
can definitely do so.
　　问：舰艇起降，也可以吗？
can takeoff from ships?
　　答：可以的，现在国内已有的机型还没有这种能力，但国外已大量应用了。我们正在联合研制的 ６吨级直升机 有这种能力。
definitely, currently, our helicopters don't have this capability, but for international use, the 6 tonne helo will have this.
　　问：舰艇起降对直升机的降落有什么特殊要求？
what kind of added requirements are there?
　　答：对直升机的降落要求并不是太复杂。但如果是小飞机要停在小舰艇上，由于小舰艇的运动参 数比较大，稍 微一动，直升机的变化就特别大。因此直９就专门设计有一个＂鱼叉＂系统，降落时就可以使用，＂ 啪＂地插进去 就可以了。
liftoff/landing aren't too complex. But if a small helicopter stays on a small ship, since small ship mobility is huge, a little shake and helicopter changes? That's why Z-9 uses a harpooning system, that lifoff/landing can use.
◆与欧直的合作坚持平等的原则

　　问：在跟欧直的合作中，你们主要承担哪些具体工作？
with Eurocopter, what do we do?
　　答：我们主要是承担旋翼和结构设计。其他方面，还承担了燃油系统等。此外，将来的许多试验 工作，比如清 理试验工作等都是中方的工作范围。
we mainly do the tail, structure design, also fuel usage system, also, in the future, a lot of testing. We do the easier work.
　　问：合作中，你们主要承担多少工作量呢？
how much design work do we do?
　　答：虽然合同中说是各有５０％的合作量，但欧直的工作量应该是超过了５０％。毕竟他们的技 术比我们要先 进一些。
it says 50/50, but Eurocopter's work is over 50%, their technology is superior to ours.
　　问：那欧直给你们都提供了什么样的技术支持？
what technology has eurocopter provided you
　　答：欧直没有给我们提供什么技术支持。具体来讲，就是一架直升机劈成两半，一家一半。欧直 不可能输送给 我们什么技术，我们也不可能输送什么技术给欧直。
they didn't provide us with any special technology, each party has their own share of the work, we don't provide technology to each other.
◆机体只是个平台，有需求就能改进

　　问：６吨级直升机除过搜索、救援外，能否实现反潜等工作？
can 6 tonne helo do search, rescue and even ASW?
　　答：实际上，直升机只是给你提供了一个平台。我们主要是设计直升机，它的运载能力是固定的，它的空间也 是固定的，至于你要装什么具体的设备，那是用户的需求。比如是海岸警卫队或海上搜索队，那他们就要来和我们 进行协调，我们根据他们要求的尺寸、搜索装备及其他方面的要求进行更改，这在设计时就直接留好了空间；如果 他们要用于反潜，情况是一样的。总的说就是用户提要求，我们再细化和改装。
helicopter is just a platform, we design helicopter, its transportation capability is set and space is set, as for fitting what kind of equipment, that's for customers. for coast guard and sea search team, we will make adjustment. We use the customer's requirments to do the necessary changes. as for ASW, the situation is the same, we change depending on customer requirements.
　　问：这就是说对直升机本身的大小有些要求了，只有这个平台适合才能做相适应的事情。我看有 些报道说直９ 的４吨有些偏小了，如果是６吨级的话就应该能好些。请问国内说的６吨级别在国际上相当于其他直 升机的那类级 别呢？
I read somewhere that says Z-9's 4 tonne is a little small, if 6 tonne is more fitting, how does our 6 tonne class compare to helicopter class in the international scene.
　　答：就是６吨级别的，没有什么差别。
it's 6 tonne class, there is no difference.

[tphuang]

Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67E Engine to Power EC175/Z15 Helicopter

HELI-EXPO 2007, ORLANDO, FLORIDA -- (MARKET WIRE) -- 02/28/07 --
Pratt & Whitney Canada Corp.'s (P&WC) new generation PT6C-67E engine
was confirmed today to power the EC175/Z15 medium-sized helicopter,
being developed by Eurocopter and Harbin Aviation Industry Group, a
subsidiary of China's AVIC II corporation. P&WC is a United
Technologies Corp. (NYSE: UTX) company.

"This is a great program for our PT6C-67E engine," says Keyvan Fard,
Vice President, Regional Airlines & Helicopter Engines, P&WC. "This
engine is now equipped with a dual-channel full-authority digital
electronic control (FADEC) system, which offers reduced pilot
workload along with increased dispatch reliability."

The PT6C-67E is the latest derivative of the world-renowned PT6
turboprop/turboshaft family, recognized for its outstanding
reliability and durability. Already installed on the Agusta Westland
AW139 helicopter and Bell/Agusta Aerospace BA609 Tiltrotor, the
PT6C-67 family of engines is helping to redefine the medium
helicopter category.
"The PT6C series, rated from 1,600 to 2,000 shp, is designed with the
operator in mind," says Fard. "It also offers among the lowest
maintenance costs and emission levels in the industry. As is the case
with all our engines, it is backed by P&WC's extensive global
customer support network, ranked No. 1 for helicopter engine support
by the industry for the last seven years."

P&WC's customer support includes over 30 P&WC-owned and designated
overhaul facilities, field support representatives strategically
located on all major continents, mobile repair teams available around
the clock, the largest pool of P&WC rental and exchange engines in
the industry, a global network for accelerated distribution of parts
and a 24-hour customer help desk offering fast and expert support.

Pratt & Whitney Canada, based in Longueuil, Quebec, is a world leader
in the design, manufacture and service of aircraft engines powering
business, general aviation and regional aircraft, and helicopters.
The company also offers auxiliary power units and industrial gas
turbines. United Technologies, based in Hartford, Conn., is a
diversified company providing high technology products and services
to the global aerospace and building industries.

Great news, Z-15 is hooked up with PT6C-67E. Z-10 is using PT6C-67C as we said from before. The 1600 to 2000 shp should give Z-15 plenty of power for whatever applications it needs to do.

[optionsss]

　答：６吨级通用直升机是我们与欧直的一个合作项目。该国对此项目的型号命名为ＥＣ１７５， 我们直接叫做 直１５。６吨级别的通用直升机主要是面对国际市场上比较先进的民用６吨级直升机市场。
6 tonne is joint venture with Eurocopter. It's called EC-175 and we call it Z-15. 6 tonne helicopter mainly is for the international market.

The guy really did not say too much about that 10 ton helo, does anybody know more about it? If it can be comparable to the CH-53 Sea Stallion, then it would be a huge lift to the PLAN's ASW capabilities. But it still can be quit useful if the helo can transport things in the rough Tibet terrans. Assuming that was what the person meant by better then Black Hawk

[tphuang]

The guy really did not say too much about that 10 ton helo, does anybody know more about it? If it can be comparable to the CH-53 Sea Stallion, then it would be a huge lift to the PLAN's ASW capabilities. But it still can be quit useful if the helo can transport things in the rough Tibet terrans. Assuming that was what the person meant by better then Black Hawk

It seems to me that they are looking for something in the weight and performance class of SH-60 or NH-90, if they ever decide to develop a naval version of this helicopter. I think with the transport variant, they are trying to replace with S-70 and Mi-8/17 currently in service. Frankly, Z-8s are not going anywhere.

[tphuang]

more on civilian helicopter project, this is cooperation with Sikorsky

BEIJING, July 12 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Sikorsky Aircraft Corp. today
announced the selection of Changhe Aircraft Industries Corp. to supply S-76(R)
helicopter airframes. The agreement is the second to result from a Memorandum
of Understanding (MOU) signed June 1, 2006, by Sikorsky and China Aviation
Industry Corp. II (AVIC II), parent company of Changhe. Sikorsky is a
subsidiary of United Technologies Corp. (NYSE: UTX).

(Logo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20060403/SIKORSKYLOGO )

(Photo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20070712/NETH065 )

Changhe will build and deliver S-76C++(TM) helicopter airframes for
Sikorsky together with AERO Vodochody in the Czech Republic. With the new
agreement, Changhe is now a supplier for Sikorsky's three largest commercial
helicopter programs. Changhe manufactures tail pylons for Sikorsky's S-92A(R)
helicopter, and in October 2006 signed the first MOU production agreement to
supply airframe components and assemblies for Sikorsky's Schweizer 300CBi
aircraft, which are used worldwide for pilot training, transportation, aerial
photography, airborne patrol and many other purposes.

The MOU signed by the two companies opened discussions about potential
arrangements for helicopter manufacturing, assembly, flight test, engineering
design and analysis, and new product development in the light, intermediate
and medium helicopter classes.

"Today marks another important step in Sikorsky's relationship with AVIC
II and in our global expansion," said Carey Bond, Sikorsky vice president for
corporate strategy. "This new agreement will strengthen our supplier base, add
value for our customers, and enable us to maintain smooth production flow as
we continue to see strong demand for the S-76 helicopter line, including the
next generation S-76D(TM) model now under development."

Bond also noted, "Sikorsky remains committed to the Asian aviation market,
and our growing presence and involvement in China provides the foundation for
local market expansion. We envision start-to-finish, 'fly-away' production of
Schweizer helicopters in China for the domestic market as the government takes
steps to encourage civil aviation by eliminating air space restrictions."

[tphuang]

well, this story again, not much more other than possible cooperation on the 1 tonne helo

July 13 (Bloomberg) -- United Technologies Corp.'s
helicopter unit, Sikorsky Aircraft Corp., will buy airframes
from China Aviation Industry Corp. II, furthering a cooperation
agreement reached by the two companies last year.
Changhe Aircraft Industries Corp., a unit of state-owned
China Aviation, will build parts for Sikorsky's S-76C++
helicopter, Stratford, Connecticut-based Sikorsky said in a
statement released via PRNewswire today.
The expanded agreement is a step toward establishing full
production of helicopters under Sikorsky's Schweizer brand in
China for domestic sale, Carey Bond, Sikorsky's vice president
for corporate strategy, said in the statement.
The statement didn't give the financial terms of the
subcontracting agreement. Changhe already makes parts for the
Sikorsky S-92A(R) helicopter and the Schweizer 300CBi, which are
used for pilot training, transportation and aerial photography,
the statement said.
Sikorsky and Changhe also plan to co-develop a 1-ton
helicopter, the Beijing-based China Daily reported today, citing
Changhe Chairman Wang Bin.
China Aviation Industry Corp. II is also known as AVIC II.

[tphuang]

well, I think the CMH (Z-12) project might still be proceeding from the look of this or maybe this is talking about the 10 tonne helo project.

Sep. 20, 2007 (China Knowledge) - State-owned China Aviation Industry
Corporation II (AVIC II), the sole helicopter R&D and manufacturing center in
China, announced to invest RMB 3 billion to develop and manufacture civilian
helicopters, said its general manager Zhang Hongbiao at the ongoing the 12th
International Aviation Expo in Beijing yesterday.

AVIC II has set its target to be the leading global helicopter maker and to
play an essential role in domestic and overseas market by 2020. Zhang said AVIC
II will strengthen international cooperation in research, manufacturing,
marketing and after-sale service to meet the needs of customers worldwide so as
to realize the target.

It is said that AVIC II has got the core technologies in aerofoil, transmission
and navigation electricity systems of medium helicopters. It has built
technical cooperation with the Eurocopter Group, Augusta Westland and HP
Canada, which will enable AVIC II to produce helicopters with its own design
and to join international cooperation with stronger technical strength.

The 12th Aviation Expo, held at the China Exhibition Center in Beijing from Sep
19 to Sep 22, attracted both leading Chinese aviation companies and top
international aircraft maker, such as Boeing and Airbus. The two aviation expos
held Beijing and Zhuhai, a city in East China, respectively are the most
important aviation exhibits in China.

[tphuang]

http://www.avic2.com.cn/ReadNews.asp?NewsID=3001&BigClassName=%D0%C2%CE%C5%BF%EC%B1%A8&SmallClassName=%BC%AF%CD%C5%D0%C2%CE%C5&DispType=1&SpecialID=0

12月11日由中航二团主办的“07＇中国直升机与公用事业发展论坛”在北京国际会议中心隆重开幕。国防科 工委秘书长黄强、中央电视台总工程师丁文华、中航二集团总经理张洪飚出席论坛并致辞。中航二集团副总经理梁 振河主持开幕式。
张洪飚致开幕辞，他对出席论坛的领导、专家、学者和关心支持中国直升机事业的各方人士表示热烈的欢迎和诚挚 的感谢。他说，我国直升机工业自1956年创建以来，走过了一条不平凡的发展道路，取得了历史性的成就，为 经济建设和国防事业做出了重要贡献。中国直升机工业已步入了新的发展时期，产品形成了从1吨级S300、1 .5吨级HC120、2吨级直11、3吨级CA109、4吨级直9、6吨级直15、13吨级直8等多个系列 军民两用、较为完整的体系，并与欧直、阿古斯特、西科斯基、贝尔等国际著名直升机制造商开展了多层次、多形 式的国际合作，有效提升了我国直升机的研制水平。张洪飚表示，党的十七大为我们描绘了宏伟蓝图，公用事业的 繁荣必将带动直升机产业的发展，同时直升机产业的发展也能够促进公用事业的进步。中航第二集团公司作为中国 直升机产业的核心力量，将全面贯彻科学发展观，始终站在高科技的前沿，加速推进产业化进程，沿着建设直升机 强国的道路不断迈进。
在全力支持直升机产业化发展的主题论坛上，中航二集团副总经理梁振河、国防科工委综合计划司副司长刘长根、 中国民航总局政策法规司副司长史博利、公安部警用航空管理办公室王文义处长、国家海洋局海监总队副队长吴强 分别作主题发言。香港政府飞行服务队、国际直升机协会、南京市公安局、纽约城警局航空部、中央电视播送中心 、交通部北海第一救助飞行队、中信海洋直升机公司、首都通航、哈飞集团、昌河集团、中国直升机设计研究所、 中航技总公司等单位，在直升机应用交流会上分别对直升机在公用事业领域的应用和发展阐述了各自 的观点。
论坛期间，举办了直升机配套设备展，就不同领域的直升机专业配套设备进行展览展示。来自国内外40余家直升 机配套企业进行了机载产品的展示。
此次论坛由中国航空科技工业股份有限公司、哈尔滨飞机工业集团有限责任公司、昌河飞机工业集团有限责任公司 、中国航空技术进出口总公司、中国直升机设计研究所协办，中航文化股份有限公司承办。来自国家部委有关领导 、国际直升机行业协会、公安系统、民用直升机的直接用户以及国内外机载配套企业200多名代表 参加了论坛。

it just talks about helicopters being produced by AVIC2, the series of helicopters include.
S300 - 1 tonne class
HC-120 - 1.5 tonne class
Z-11 - 2 tonne class
CA-109 - 3 tonne class
Z-9 - 4 tonne class
Z-15 - 6 tonne class
Z-8 - 13 tonne class

I guess they failed to mention the 10 tonne helicopter that they are developing and hasn't seemed to receive a designation yet.

[tphuang]

more news on EC-175, looks like it's had quite a nice introduction

AVIONEWS at the "Heli-Expo 2008" (9): in two days the EC-175 totalized 98 orders
http://www.avionews.com/index.php?corpo=see_news_home.php&news_id=1086352&pagina_chiamante=corpo%3Dindex.php

Houston, USA - The announcement has been given by Lutz Bertling
(WAPA) - The Eurocopter CEO, Lutz Bertling, has announced that in the first two days of the international exhibition the EC-175 helicopter has totalized 98 orders. The last order belonging to the Halvorson family with a contract for 10 helicopter (five firm + five options).

The EC-175 is born by a joint programme between Eurocopter and the Chinese aerospace industry AVIC II. It deals with an at least 6-ton civil aircraft belonging to the segment included between the Dauphin and the Super Puma. It is able to carry up to 16 persons besides its crew, according to forecasts, flying at a 280 km/h maximum speed and provided with a 200 miles range.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_airshow.jsp?channel=busav&id=news/EC02248.xml&show=hai

[Troika]

China purchases Polish helicopters (http://www.sinodaily.com/2006/080227131934.8ix69ngq.html)

150 choppers over 10 years? The Sokol isn't bad, and fills a nice gap, maybe, but the Kania is getting a bit dated, it IS a Mi-2 knock off, after all, and I think the Z-9 has pretty much the same role, and superior performance. SW-4 is fine, but I don't think it offers anything materially better than Z-11 or HC-120.

[kickars]

150 choppers over 10 years? The Sokol isn't bad, and fills a nice gap, maybe, but the Kania is getting a bit dated, it IS a Mi-2 knock off, after all, and I think the Z-9 has pretty much the same role, and superior performance. SW-4 is fine, but I don't think it offers anything materially better than Z-11 or HC-120.
So what class is Sokol in? I always thought they are in the same class as Kania.

I mean it's always a good news to hear more choppers are coming into China. But I'm a bit confused with this purchase.

[Troika]

So what class is Sokol in? I always thought they are in the same class as Kania.

I mean it's always a good news to hear more choppers are coming into China. But I'm a bit confused with this purchase.

Sokol and Kania is about the same size, but Kania has inferior load, Sokol is almost double. I mean, Kania is 2 tonne helicopter in the Z-9 class, Sokol is more closer to a Mi-4.

[Ryz05]

So what class is Sokol in? I always thought they are in the same class as Kania.

I mean it's always a good news to hear more choppers are coming into China. But I'm a bit confused with this purchase.

The Sokol should fit well as a stop gap before the Z-15 goes into service. It's in the same class as the latter. I'm not sure about the other two classes, as China already has comparable helicopters with Z-9 and Z-11.

[adeptitus]

The Sokol Kania was not a successful product, with only ~16 built. The Sokol fared better at ~150 built, and with pending license-contract for another 150 to China. It also uses licensed Russian engine, so less trouble than importing from P&W Canada.

I found a pic of the updated Sokol "Gluszec" military variant:
http://www.airfoto.pl/index.php?module=Photos&action=Single&id_ph=52127&size=2

But I'm pretty sure China is getting the civil and not military version. hehehe.

[Deino]

Just found at FlightGlobal.com:


Heli-Expo 2008: Eurocopter unveils EC175, names launch customers
By Graham Warwick

Bristol Group and VIH Aviation Group have become the first launch customers for Eurocopter's new 7t-class helicopter, the EC175. The 16-set turbine twin is being developed jointly with China's Harbin Aviation Industry.

Eurocopter announced the launch customers druing the unveiling of a full-scale mockup of the EC175 at the Heli-Expo show in Houston, Texas. More customers are to be announced during the show, it says.

Design of the EC175 was frozen at the end of 2007, and manufacture of the first prototype is under way, says Eurocopter. First flight is scheduled for 2009, with European certification expected in 2011.

While Eurocopter is leading the programme, development and production are being shared 50:50 with Harbin, which is part of China's AVIC II aviation industrial group.

The EC175 will be powered by digitally controlled Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67E turboshafts, and will feature a five-blade Spheriflex rotor, four-axis duplex autopilot and four flat-panel cockpit displays

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/02/25/221792/heli-expo-2008-eurocopter-unveils-ec175-names-launch-customers.html

[tphuang]

I don't think this is too much of a surprise, since we've been hearing about it for a while now, but the scope of this project seems to be large.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080512/107127123.html

MOSCOW, May 12 (RIA Novosti) - A manufacturing plant in southwest China has started to assemble Russian-designed Mi-171 transport helicopters, one of Russia's key arms exports, the Russian business daily Vedomosti said on Monday.

China plans to build at least 20 helicopters in 2008 with assembly kits supplied by a Russian plant in Ulan-Ude and later increase production capacity to 80 aircraft per year.

"We consider this project as the beginning of a trend to assembly Russian helicopters in China," the newspaper quoted a source in Oboronprom, which controls Russian Helicopters, a helicopter manufacturing group.

Mi-171 is an export version of the Mi-8 Hip helicopter, which is currently in production at two factories in Kazan and Ulan-Ude, fitted with more powerful turboshaft engines.

According to Vedomosti, the Lantian Helicopter Company, based in Sichuan province, has already received orders worth $42.8 million.

"The Chinese are planning to export [Mi-171] helicopters to Pakistan and Africa, which may hurt Russian exports," the source said. "In addition, the successful implementation of the project could leave Russian manufacturers short of component parts."

In 2007, Russian companies only built 120 Mi-171 helicopters, although they had orders for 150 aircraft, due to a shortage of transmissions and rotors, and according to estimates, there are no plans in the future to increase production for these components.

At the same time, some Russian experts believe it is better to allow the Chinese to manufacture helicopters under license rather than sit and wait until China develops its own version, modeled on Russian designs, Vedomosti said.

[Baibar of Jalat]

^^^

I expect there would be an agreement not to export, unless they have Russian approval. And the Russians would be wise to keep the majority