Y-8F600 for plaaf

[MIGleader]

the y-8 seems like a really capable transport, with some really advanced western avionics and engine equipment. seems like the perfect transport plane to seve as a stopgap meaure before the y-9.

http://www.shanfei.com/2005/xwzx/2004zhhz/images/y8aircraft/Y8F600.JPG
http://www.shanfei.com/2005/xwzx/2002zhhz/images/009_72.jpg
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/Y8F600_3.jpg
is this plane in service, will it be, and should it be?

[New2u]

:nana: nice pic! (the last one) there are two of them their!

I think its a good plane and it should and is going to stay in service, since thier is these butyfuls...and the new AWACS are also on this plane.

[sumdud]

Wrong pic?

I wonder, why are we getting both the Y8-F600 and the Y9?
They seem to have no significant differences.
Are they the same plane?
Maybe one is civilian? (Then, if it's civilian, Y8 would be gone.)

[MIGleader]

well, the y-8f600 is the final development of the y-8. the y-9 is not out yet. thats why i beilive some y-8f600s should be delivered as a stopgap till y-9 arrives.

[darth sidious]

does any one know what happened to the Y-10

why dident the plaf chose its much better then the Y-8

heard the americans influence the project a little too much and its droped for political reason

But its most likely Bs

[Gollevainen]

does any one know what happened to the Y-10

why dident the plaf chose its much better then the Y-8

Y-10 was a commercial transport, totaly different aircraft type than Y-8...it was cancelled after the cultural revolution...officical reason was "lack of suitable indoor markets" if i recall....

[darth sidious]

culteral revoulation ended in1976

the Y-10 was designed after that

"lack of suitable indoor markets" is also not a good excuse they would have made fine replacement for the tridents

[Gollevainen]

Well sorry about the timeline....but as i said the chinese civil aviation markets were rahter small compared to the resources which would have to been used for the plane. It was expensive project and superior planes would been availble to be bought form abroad. Sad tough, it was quite nice looking airliner...

[darth sidious]

some were actualy put into active service and they were popular amoung the polits that flew them the thing could also double as a transport

it seems that some key people inthe program defected to the wast after 1989 it was later discovered that others were spies for the taiwanese

so political reasons seems more likely

[tphuang]

Reading back on it, Y-10 was really an outdated design and it was quite expensive project at that time for PRC, so it was cancelled. Also, the quality of the plane was not good enough for the Chinese airline. As for Y8F600 and Y-9, I honestly can't see much difference. Maybe better airframe and avionics for Y-9? It's probably an interim frame before Y-8X. I'd honestly like to see China just abandon these updates to Y-8 series and start cooperating with Antonov on An-70.

[swimmerXC]

Y-10 was a commercial transport, totaly different aircraft type than Y-8...it was cancelled after the cultural revolution...officical reason was "lack of suitable indoor markets" if i recall....
this it? :china:
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/2943/y107wi.jpg

[sumdud]

Yea, it makes me wonder, too.
What differences are there between the F600 and Y-9???
BTW, what's the payload in tonnage for both planes?
Huitong reported it at 30 tonnes before,
but DF reports it at 20 tonnes only.

To Swimmer: Yes

[tphuang]

no, I think Huitong reported Y-8X to have a tonnage of 30 tonnes and Y-9 to have 20 tonnes. I honestly can't tell much difference in specs between Y-8F600 and Y-9. Maybe they can stay operational for longer. Actually, transport is quite an embarrassment for plaaf, I remember they said Y-9 was being developed because Y-8X is too challenging.

[MIGleader]

i thought the y-8x was the innitial program name, but then it got changed to y-9. now your saying y-9 was sarted because y-8x was too hard to design?

[sumdud]

Yes, what MiGleader said.
Maybe Y8F600 is the 20 tonner, Y-9 the 30 tonner?
Maybe the Y8F600 is in fact the Y-9?
The stats are all too similar.

[tphuang]

i thought the y-8x was the innitial program name, but then it got changed to y-9. now your saying y-9 was sarted because y-8x was too hard to design?
I'm saying that Shaanxi AC had to display a new product and they couldn't get Y-8X out fast enough to show that they are doing something, Or it could be that they want to get a downsized version of Y-8x out first.

[Dongfeng]

I think there has been some confusion on the Y-8's successors.

It is somehow surprising to see two Y-8 upgrade programmes going at the same time. However, there is some difference between the two progarmmes.

Y-8F600 is based on the Y-8, but has received entensive upgrade. The two most important improvements are: Antonov's involved in the re-design of the airframe to improve its aerodynamic performance, and Western-made engines and avionics. So as you can see, the Y-8 is totally based on foreign technologies. Its avionics equipment and engine supply will be limited. So it will never become a popular military transport in the PLAAF. Instead, Shaanxi is trying to (1) learn from the foreign partners to help its own future development; (2) provide a high-performance platform for some special aircraft such as AWACS, which will be produced in small numbers anyway.

Y-9, which was originally named Y-8X, is almost a new design. it may look similar to the Y-8 but it has little link to the Y-8/An-12 family. It will be based on indigenous engines and avionics. So this is the true successor to the Y-8.

I believe the Y-9 development has not begun yet. All Shaanxi has been doing is some public relation exercise to promote its Y-9 programme to get the state funding. The future of the Y-9 programme is not clear at the moment as Shaanxi is very keen to the licensed production of the An-70. Should this becomes reality, the Y-9 programme is very likely going to be cancelled.

[tphuang]

About Y-9, from the official manufacturer website
http://www.shanfei.com/2005/xwzx/rmwz/yjfj.html
陕飞集团生产的运八系列飞机自1975年首飞上天以来，作为我国国产唯一的中程中型运输机，经过不断创新和 发展，逐步实现了由单一军事运输用途向多种用途的转变，由主要装备空军向装备陆、海、空三军的转变，由单纯 军用机型向军、民机型并举的转变，由满足国内需求向同时出口创汇的转变。三十年来，运八飞机发展了近三十种 改型，在我国国民经济发展中发挥了重要作用，为我国国防建设做出了重大贡献。
进入新世纪以来，国际形势和格局的变化对我军军事航空运输提出了新的要求，为了适应新时期军事航空运输发展 的需要，陕飞集团决策层审时度势，决定利用运八系列飞机型号建设的技术和成果，开发研制使用范围更宽广、运 载能力更强、操作性更好、经济性更佳的新型中型中程战术运输机——运九飞机。
运九飞机是我国拥有独立知识产权的中型中程多用途战术运输机，具备较强的空运、空投、空降能力，主要用于兵 员运输、军事装备和物资的空运空投、伞兵空降等军事任务，也可用于执行地震抢险、防洪救灾、海洋搜救、不安 全地区人员和侨民应急撤离等民事任务。
主要设计特点 �
运九飞机采用半硬壳式增压机身、上翘后机身、后开式货舱大门、上单翼、单垂尾、低平尾、翼吊发动机的基本布 局，全新设计了飞机外形及机体结构、飞行控制系统、货运系统，通过使用新型发动机，配置各种先进的国产设备 ，使运九飞机使用范围广、运载能力大、操作性好、使用性能较佳，综合能力达到国际先进水平。
大功率的动力装置为了获得良好的战术性能和使用性能，运九飞机使用当量功率为5100EHP（当量马力）的 FWJ-6C型涡轮螺旋桨发动机，并配装了6叶大后掠角的JL- 4型复合材料螺旋桨。FWJ-6C发动机技术成熟、工作稳定可靠，功率大、油耗低，JL-4复合材料螺旋桨重量轻、效率高、噪声低。使用FWJ-6C发动机及JL-4螺旋桨后，运九飞机具有了很好的高温、高原性能。
理的气动布局运九飞机机身典型截面采用了小阻力的正圆截面，前、后机身根据驾驶舱的布局和货物装载的需要变 截面收缩；运九飞机采用大面积方向舵，提高了飞运九飞机平衡发动机单发失效后非对称力矩的能力，方向舵调整 片和随动补偿片合为一片，在升降舵调整片的外侧增加升降舵备用调整片。合理的气动布局使运九飞机的操稳特性 更好、飞行性能更佳。
成熟和长寿命的机体结构为了达到大吨位、长寿命的要求，陕飞集团按照损伤容限与耐久性准则对运九飞机机翼、 机身、起落架等机体结构进行了优化设计，机身采用轻质金属半硬壳式薄壁增压结构，机翼的外翼和垂直尾翼、水 平尾翼采用轻质金属蒙皮、长桁铆接结构，中央翼和中外翼采用整体壁板螺接结构。
运九飞机的机身由前、中、后三部分组成，前、中机身通过工艺分离面对接，中、后机身通过设计分离面对接。机 上空间主要分隔为驾驶舱和货舱，驾驶舱和货舱为增压气密舱，在驾驶舱的前部和货舱的后部设有气密端框。驾驶 舱设有1个开口尺寸大于I类出口的侧登机门供飞行机组人员出入，货舱除设有后开式的货舱大门供运载人员上下 和装备货物出入外，还设有4个III类应急出口供机上人员应急撤离使用；机身中段货舱地板下设置有两个副油 箱舱。
运九飞机的机翼由中央翼、中外翼和外翼三部分组成，使用整体结构油箱，其中中央翼设置1个整体油箱，中外翼 左右各设置5个整体结构油箱，外翼左右各设置1个整体结构油箱，全机翼共设有13个整体结构油 箱。
运九飞机的起落架为前三点可收放式布局。主起落架为四轮小车式，安装在中机身两侧的鼓包内，向内收于中机身 腹部的主起落架舱；前起落架为双轮式，安装并向后收于前机身腹部的前起落架舱；起落架支柱进行了优化设计以 提高承载能力；采用优质锻铝合金机轮，使用无内胎的低压扁平轮胎，提高了起落架漂浮性能；配置了耐高温性、 动摩擦系数大、热容量大、耐磨性好、质量轻的碳-碳复合材料刹车盘，机轮的刹车控制采用了数字式电子防滑系统。这些设计保证运九飞机可以在松软、粗糙的简易 跑道或地面上起降。
机体结构的优化设计使得运九飞机的使用寿命得到全面提高，在各种复杂的环境下都能长期有效的可 靠的工作。
稳定可靠的机载系统 为了提高运九飞机的可操作性和使用性能，同时适应飞机动力、外形的特点，陕飞集团对运九飞机的液压、飞行控 制、防冰、燃油、环境控制、电源电气等系统进行了优化设计，并采用了国内最新的技术和产品。
运九飞机上设立了一套独立的飞行控制助力液压系统，为飞行控制系统中的助力器提供液压驱动力，驱动主操纵面 的运动，使液压系统的可靠性得到大大提高。
运九飞机全面设计了飞行控制系统。运九飞机中操纵方向舵、升降舵、副翼的主操纵系统使用了软硬结合的混合式 操纵系统；主操纵系统采用数字式双通道自动驾驶仪和伺服舵机，以提高飞机自动飞行能力，减少驾驶员的操作工 作量；同时在主操纵系统通道中使用了可逆助力器，降低了驾驶员的劳动强度。升降舵、副翼采用双套操纵系统， 提高了主操纵系统的安全冗余度；辅助操纵系统中升降舵、方向舵和副翼的调整片和随动补偿片等采用电力驱动； 运九飞机还采用了襟翼自动控制系统和不同步刹车系统。
运九飞机的垂直尾翼和水平尾翼前缘的防冰采用气囊除冰系统，通过气囊的收缩和膨胀以机械的方式除去尾翼前缘 的冰层。
运九飞机全新设计了燃油系统，包括供输系统、加油系统、通气系统，发动机的供输油既可自动控制，也可人工控 制，系统可使用压力加油，也可使用人工方式的重力加油，同时还配备了通气系统以保证油箱内外压 力的平衡。
运九飞机配备了座舱环境控制系统、氧气系统和必要的生活、救生装备。座舱环境控制系统具有强大的座舱压力和 温度的控制与保持能力，系统工作时舱内的温度可在16℃～30℃之间调节，座舱能够保持39.2±2kPa 的内外压差；供氧系统可供4名机组人员3小时连续用氧和106名舱内乘员15分钟应急用氧；机上还配有电加 温水箱、食品柜、医药盒、卫生间等生活设备和必要的救生设备。
运九飞机采用以三相115V/400Hz交流电源为主、28V直流电源为辅的供电体制。交流电源由发动机驱动的4台60kVA交流发电机 供电，总容量为 240kVA；直流电源由发动机驱动的8台12kW直流发电机供电，总容量为96kW；机上还配备有由直流 蓄电池组组成的应急电源，可以保证20分钟的应急供电。全机共有4个容量为60kVA的三相1 15V/400Hz交流电源网络和由主电路、备用电路和应急电路组成的直流电源网络。
先进的玻璃化驾驶舱运九飞机的驾驶舱采用了先进的“玻璃化”驾驶舱技术，配备有六块先进的综合显示仪表，使 飞行机组对航行信息、发动机和各系统工作情况的感知更加清晰、明了、便利。飞行信息的显示采用了国产先进的 电子飞行信息系统（EFIS），发动机工作情况的显示采用了国产先进的发动机指示和空勤告警系统（EICA S），EFIS和EICAS同时可对其它系统的工作情况采取集中显示与告警的方式；运九飞机还配备有功能完 善的导航、通讯、雷达和自卫设备。

FWJ-6C
http://www.shanfei.com/2005/xwzx/rmwz/images/yjfj/Y9_006.JPG

JL-4
http://www.shanfei.com/2005/xwzx/rmwz/images/yjfj/Y9_007.JPG

cockpit
http://www.shanfei.com/2005/xwzx/rmwz/images/yjfj/Y9_003.JPG

[sumdud]

Tphuang, is the inlet on the second photo suppose to be that of the FWJ-6C?

To my knowledge, a turboprop inlet is not suppose to be like that?

But that's a rather awful pilot-simple control panel.....

But..... what's the major point really of building a Y-9 when a Y-8 can haul the 20 tonnes farther?

[tphuang]

Tphuang, is the inlet on the second photo suppose to be that of the FWJ-6C?

To my knowledge, a turboprop inlet is not suppose to be like that?

But that's a rather awful pilot-simple control panel.....

But..... what's the major point really of building a Y-9 when a Y-8 can haul the 20 tonnes farther?
Can't comment on the inlet. I haven't observed enough.

I actually have the JDW article on Y-8F600 vs Y-9. In general, Y-8F600 shows superior performance in pretty much everything. However, the current indigenization fever in China sparked China to develop a comparable system like Y-9.

[Sea Dog]

Isn't the Y-8F600 the one that was assisted not only by Ukraine, but by Pratt & Whitney? I believe they are the ones that also have alot of Western standard avionics and electronics, right? Y-9 is going to be a Y-8 upgrade, and Y-8 is the one copied from the Russian AN-21, correct? Just wondering. I'm just trying to follow along and not get these aircraft confused.:confused:

[tphuang]

Isn't the Y-8F600 the one that was assisted not only by Ukraine, but by Pratt & Whitney? I believe they are the ones that also have alot of Western standard avionics and electronics, right? Y-9 is going to be a Y-8 upgrade, and Y-8 is the one copied from the Russian AN-21, correct? Just wondering. I'm just trying to follow along and not get these aircraft confused.:confused:
it got more help than just that. This JDW article should explain quite a bit.
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/6343/jdwy91bn.jpg
(rat, it's not showing up all that well, oh well, if you want to read the article, I can email it to you)

Y-9 is better than the original Y-8 (which is An-12). Y-8 went through quite a few upgrades recently, so that's where you got the Y-8F200, Y-8F400 and Y-8F600. Basically, it allows for longer operation range, better navigation, better endurance and such. Y-8F600 is definitely superior to Y-9 in terms of performance. I think Y-9 will probably be marketed once it has been tested.

[Sea Dog]

Well from what I understand, Y-9 is not really an operating aircraft. There are "rumors" that one was shown at an airshow in Zhuhai, but I think you'll agree "rumors" are not credible in terms of actual real-life situations. And I typo'd. I meant AN-12, just typed it in backwards. I knew that Y-8 was seeing a number of mods. We'll have to see how they all work out.

[tphuang]

Well from what I understand, Y-9 is not really an operating aircraft. There are "rumors" that one was shown at an airshow in Zhuhai, but I think you'll agree "rumors" are not credible in terms of actual real-life situations. And I typo'd. I meant AN-12, just typed it in backwards. I knew that Y-8 was seeing a number of mods. We'll have to see how they all work out.
right, it's under development. JDW got their info from one of China's airshows recently. Y-8F600 is supposedly a "commercial" aircraft, that's why it was able to import the fuel efficient PW engines and honeywell GPS and such. Y-9 uses no disguise, so it has to use all Chinese components.

[Sea Dog]

right, it's under development. JDW got their info from one of China's airshows recently. Y-8F600 is supposedly a "commercial" aircraft, that's why it was able to import the fuel efficient PW engines and honeywell GPS and such. Y-9 uses no disguise, so it has to use all Chinese components.

Oh, Ok. I see. It's in early development stage. But if Jane's is correct, it will only be an upgraded Y-8, which is a copied AN-12. And if it was at an airshow in Zhuhai, I wonder why no pictures were taken of it. I mean at least you might see one example out there showing us if there are any differences in flight surfaces, cockpit layout, or anything else. You'd think you can find at least one picture of it. I've looked around the net and can't find any. If you have some, I'd sure be interested to see them.

[bd popeye]

I wonder why no pictures were taken of it. I mean at least you might see one example out there showing us if there are any differences in flight surfaces, cockpit layout, or anything else. You'd think you can find at least one picture of it. I've looked around the net and can't find any. If you have some, I'd sure be interested to see them.

:) Now that is funny....:D

When I find a real pic of a J-10 also I will post that also.

Sorry but it is hard to believe when their is no photographic evidence. That's a fact. It may be work in progress.

Sea Dog I got some nice pics of an F-22 & JSF if ya' wanna see them!:)

[Sea Dog]

:) Now that is funny....:D

When I find a real pic of a J-10 also I will post that also.

Sorry but it is hard to believe when their is no photographic evidence. That's a fact. It may be work in progress.

Sea Dog I got some nice pics of an F-22 & JSF if ya' wanna see them!:)

Sure, I'd love to see em'. But in regards to Y-9 I was hoping to see one example of it. I guess it would look very much like a Russian AN-12. Looking more at this aircraft, it looks like they were intially going to call it the Y-8X, but later decided that they might call this particular off-shoot of Y-8 the Y-9. So I guess it's only a Y-8/AN-12 that's modified to carry cargo and troops.

[tphuang]

Sure, I'd love to see em'. But in regards to Y-9 I was hoping to see one example of it. I guess it would look very much like a Russian AN-12. Looking more at this aircraft, it looks like they were intially going to call it the Y-8X, but later decided that they might call this particular off-shoot of Y-8 the Y-9. So I guess it's only a Y-8/AN-12 that's modified to carry cargo and troops.
They only have model pictures of Y-9. Since you don't have a prototype yet, it's kind of hard to have a real picture. You can see it from this page http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/Il-76_Y-8X_H-6U.htm
You can also click on different links on that page to see different models of them.

Y-8X and Y-9 are not the same thing. Y-8X was supposedly too difficult, so they decided to take the easy way out and go with Y-9.

And honestly, I don't even know what picture to post to please you anymore. Anything that comes from a Chinese source, you are calling them fake. I'm just going to give up.

[tphuang]

a little more on Y-8, apparently 21 are delivered this year.
http://jczs.sina.com.cn/2006-02-09/0920349764.html

　新年伊始，陕西飞机工业(集团)公司承担研制的某重点型号工程荣获“国防科技工业武器装备型号研制金奖” 。

　　2005年，陕飞集团多个重点型号飞机急需技术鉴定，生产线上涉及的科研生产、批生产、定型试飞、大修 、D检、改装飞机累计达到11个型号近 30架飞机。面对严峻形势，陕飞集团成立专项攻关组突破了多项核心技术和关键技术难题，攻克了多项技术难关 ；生产部门边学习新技术、新方法，边研制、边生产；技改部门抓紧技术改造项目整体验收工作，为型号研制创造 条件；积极开拓航空产品市场，并一举签订了18架新型机、改装机、大修机合同。

　　为此，陕飞集团成立了现场指挥部加强计划的科学性、预见性和可操作性，充分发挥调度部门的现场调控能力 强化
执行力。各单位也纷纷定目标、定计划，并出台新的激励政策优化考核办法，逐层深入地推行6S和六西格玛管理 ，以此提升职工素质，调动职工积极性，加强生产质量管理，加快生产步伐。

　　2005年成功实现了3机首飞、4机技术鉴定的总体目标，全年试飞并交付用户各型运八飞机21架；诞生 了运八Ⅲ类平台，不仅填补了重点型号研制多项空白，而且为今后改进改型各种特殊用途的飞机开辟了更为广阔的 前景。

Now, I'm guessing most of these are used for the new special missions crafts that we are seeing. (aka: high new series).

[tphuang]

two exports to Iran, I guess to replace the replace the C-130 that got lost? According to this article, this is the first export of Y-8 in the last 2 years.
http://military.china.com/zh_cn/news/568/20060311/13161480.html
近日，陕飞集团市场部积极行动，加紧为伊朗培训空地勤技术人员。目前，各项培训工作正有序进行 。
　　
　　由于出口该国的两架运8是陕飞近两年首批外贸出口机，集团公司及市场部各级领导都高度重视此次培训。市 场部用户培训处在部门领导的指示下，迅速提前展开工作，一方面积极协调联络各相关单位，相互配合，各司其职 ；另一方面切实做好前期筹划准备，如认真详细制订教学计划大纲，编排中、英文课表，编写教员学员手册，落实 授课教员、译员等工作，确保培训工作万无一失，为此次涉外培训营造了一个良好的氛围。
　　
　　伊朗空地勤人员培训工作于上周正式开始。参加此次培训的教员、译员配合协调，增进默契，以求在培训授课 过程中提高效率，增强效果，确保此次培训工作圆满完成。