PLAAF AWACS thread

[Sczepan]

sorry - I did'nd found a thread about this chinese plane

[tphuang]

actually, I think we are kind of lacking a PLAAF AWACS thread. Can one of the mods with that permission change the title of this thread? Thanks.

[muyang523]

I think they have liimted a AWACS capability with the exception of USA and Russia they aren't that bad.

They have 3 KJ-2000
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/surveillance/KJ-2000c.jpg
B-4042
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/surveillance/KJ-2000e.jpg
B-4043
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/surveillance/B-4043.jpg


Y-8J the capability is limited by it is better than nothing and still pretty useful
It has a detection range of 85km (look-down mode) or 110km (look-up mode) against a 5 m2 aerial target, and 230km against a sea surface target. A total of 100 aerial targets and 32 sea surface targets can be tracked simultaneously. Y-8J also has a limited C&C capability. The system can direct up to 6 aircraft to intercept enemy aircraft. The first prototype flew in 1998.
Though it does not have a AWACS capability, it is a AEW. So far 2 have been identified. Though China bought 6-8 skymaster raders.
9281
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/surveillance/Y-8J1.jpg
9301http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/surveillance/Y-8J2.jpg

[muyang523]

Continued
Y-8 balance Beam
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/surveillance/Y-8-beam1.jpg

And offcourse the one listed above the Y-8 phased array radar
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/surveillance/Y-8-beam4.jpg

Y-8 awacs
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/gallery/Y-8AWACS.jpg

Y-8 SIGINT Cub
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/surveillance/Y-8SIG.jpg
with a limited airborne radar but mainly for EW and SIGINT

[muyang523]

They also have a few Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System aircrafts, EW,SATCOM, SIGNT,but they don't count as AWACS

such as http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/surveillance/Tu-154M.jpg

[ahho]

well i am wondering, what is the difference between teh balance beam and the circular radar on awacs???? How does each design benefit their operation

[tphuang]

in disc, you a compacting all the radar modules into one disc. It pretty much has 360 degree coverage, because the disc is ciruclar.

with the beam, only the ends of the beam do scan. Normally, you get 120 degree of scan on both side, so you don't get the full 360 degree coverage. I'm not sure about this, but maybe you can fit more modules into the beam, so it gives better performance than the conventional disc shaped radar?

As for plaaf AWACS, it's kind of interesting to see all the different types of AWACS coming out:
1. there will be at least 4 KJ-2000 soon. Most people speculate 20 as the final count of KJ-2000, so we will need to buy a few more IL-76 for that.
2. the skymaster Y-8 AEW are pretty weak and they are just limited to 6-8 of them. I don't know how useful they can be really.
3. the balance beam Y-8 can form the hi-lo combination of AWACS with KJ-2000. It's interesting, the stats of Erieye Hawkeye seem to really overwhelm those of the conventional AWACS like Phalcon or E-3 or A50I. If Y-8 can achieve anywhere close to that, it would be great.
4. the disc Y-8 AWACS is probably just built because IL-76 are too expensive to purchase in great numbers.

[MIGleader]

well i am wondering, what is the difference between teh balance beam and the circular radar on awacs???? How does each design benefit their operation

the balance beam only gives you a 180 scan at max, so you normally field two. the disk is actually quite unique, using triangular configuration of the ESA modules to provied 360. most western radars use rotodomes.

perhaps the plaaf will buy more skymasters. they were bought in the 90s, and the excuse would be "drug trafficing". worked for venezuela, works for china.

[Sczepan]

've got new pix

[ArjunMk1]

Just a little question :
Does Chine manufacture these AEWs in home or import them from Russia. I mean the radars !!!

[tphuang]

The radar are definitely all produced by the 14th institute. It's the same company that developed radar for all the Chinese fighters and also the PAR or APAR radar on 052C. I believe China did not think A50I by the Russians was good enough. I think the Russian AWACS required a ground station or something like that?

[MIGleader]

Just a little question :
Does Chine manufacture these AEWs in home or import them from Russia. I mean the radars !!!

russian radars suck. its a fact, not an opinion. and china has exceeded them. to bad china didnt get the phalcon...

does anyone know
is the radar on the second kj-2000 superior to the one on the original?

the balance beam looks as if it were based on argus ericsson eirye tech, but we should never make that kind of assumption. the a-501s Vega Shmel-M radar has less range than a sentry, although it can discrimate targets against ground clutter better. but it only trakcs 50-60 targets, as opposed to a phalcon, which had a 250 km range, and could track 60-100 targets.

[adeptitus]

Here's some AWCS specs:
www.beriev.com/eng/A-50E_e/A-50E_e.html
www.spyflight.co.uk/phalcon.htm
www.spyflight.co.uk/737aewc.htm
www.spyflight.co.uk/IVSP.htm
www.globalsecurity.org/milit...e-737-specs.htm
www.globalsecurity.org/milit.../c-37-specs.htm

A disucssion on AWACS:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://jczs.sina.com.cn/2005-05-30/0826292465.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DEL/W-2085%26hl%3Den%26hs%3DVLd%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfiref ox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the manufacturer's claim on detection ranges, they're usually overstated and does not represent realistic battlefield conditions.

Russian AWACS have a bad rep from high noise levels and lack of toilet facilities. I hope they install a toilet on the KJ-2000. =p

[tphuang]

Let's not forget, the Russian AWACS are not using phased array radar. It still uses a rotating PD radar. Anyhow, it's clear from the actions of both PLAAF and IAF, that they don't think much of the radar on the A50.

The article said that the radar on A50 is twice the mass of the radar on Sentry, but the detection range is actually the same.


Editted: interesting stuff for Y-8

巨泻:Y8系列工程载机
摘自 鼎盛王朝 考古 2005-12-02 20:26
http://top.jschina.com.cn/bbs/ccb/index.cgi
Y8J 有4架(其中9281#改自Y8X)
Y8平衡木 生产型已有1架

Y8-J is the one fitted with the skymaster radar, there are 4 of those
Y-8 balance beam, said there is one production type.

高薪一号：运8电子情报鸡。(估计是20110#那架)
Y-8 ECM
高薪二号：运8电子干扰鸡(估计是海军9351#)
Y-8 ELINT
高薪三号：运8预警机(磨菇头)，2003年9月首飞
Y-8 AWACS with rotodome?
高薪四号：运8空中指挥鸡(EP3C版)
Y-8 C3I


similar to that one, but more detailed:

该文或许有利于大家理解最近搞得沸沸扬扬的Y8平衡木图片。原文今年5月14日发表在超大。本文系在该文在 原文基础上进行多处修改、增补而成（

2004年6月13日，星期日第三次修改稿）。

欲谈中航二集团预警机，首先必须谈陕飞集团。

运8是陕飞的独子，陕飞的所有飞机系列都是在运8基础上衍生出来的。这种1969年开始研制、1980年正 式设计定型的运输机是国内运输能力最大的中型运输机。其最大起飞重量为61吨，最大载重20吨。在此基础上 运8又衍生出了诸如海上巡逻机、黑鹰直升机载机、民用型机、出口型机、无人机母机、民用货运机、气密型机、 航测机、邮政机、“515工程”等三大系列 10余种机型。目前国内的特种飞机大多为该公司研制。由于需求量有限，每一种飞机机型的产量都少得可怜。从 运8正式定型至今所有机型的总产量不超过100架。所以我们才能够看到陕飞2003年“一机立项、两机新研 、三机改装、两机首飞、四机预研”的壮观景象。这里除了运8F600、运8-X型机，和正在设计的一种全新中型运输机—运8U以外，我们对其他机型一无所知。但是未知型号至少会包括一 种陕飞人称之为“生命工程” 的高新工程计划，据称其关系到陕飞集团未来的生存与发展。2003年一则新闻说陕飞的该重点工程是“一项战 略性任务，更重要的是一项政治任务，国家对中航二集团已经下了死命令！”可见意义确实非同小可！机型决不是 以前从事过的普通机型！当然国家也不是只提供压力，从先后在陕飞投人了数亿元人民币搞条件建设看国家对此项 目也非常重视。中国航空报2003年的新闻明确提到“预警机”。但更多时候只以“高新工程”称呼。在汇集了 更多的资料后方知预警机只是高新工程的一个部分而已。

高新工程分为有多个型号。按照《简氏防务周刊》在2003年8月一期的的说法，目前一共有4个 。

1、高新一号：运8电子情报机，有2架在空军服役，主要负责在东南沿海收集电子情报
This should be Y-8 ELINT/SIGINT plane, it says 2 are in service
2、高新二号：新运8预警机，明年服役(指2004年)
This should be the new Y-8 AWACS
3、高新三号：运8电子干扰机，共10架在生产中，干扰L、C、和S波段
This should be the Y-8 ECM, 10 in production, disrupts L, C, S bands
4、高新四号：运8空中指挥机，方案论证已完成。
This should be the Y-8 C3I.

The above is according to JDW.
There could be as many as 6 types of Y-8 EW planes.
但是有消息称，型号已经到了6号甚至更多，但是作为外界人我们无从知道真相。不过陕飞的新闻多次提到，陕飞 “多项重点工程项目陆续上马”“随着国家军事战略结构调整，陕飞集团承担的重点型号研制任务越来越多”，这 些字眼也验证了陕飞的确存在着多个“高新工程”型号。
It says the "high new" project started in 2001 and signed a detail with PLAN for 3 Y8C balance beam test bed. In november, Y-8 balance beam was a success.
根据陕飞的“大事记”，“高新工程”型号研制于2001年2月通过技术鉴定审查，2001年9月29日，陕 飞与海军签订了3架运8C “平衡木”验证机载机合同。11月8日，运8 “平衡木”也即高新工程一号首飞成功，说明前期工作早就在进行之中。12月22日，“高新二号工程”又首飞 成功。由专家组组织的评审结论认为，“运8C“平衡木”验证机载机基本符合任务系统装机和验证试飞的要求， 可以转入下一阶段研制”。这说明，陕飞至少有两项重点工程载机工程。新闻也证实，2001年陕飞有两种特种 专业飞机成功首飞。2000年陕飞“高新一号工程”研制获科技进步一等奖； “高新一号工程鉴定试飞”、“运8‘515’工程APU系统设计” 获二等奖。说明型号性能还是令人满意的。

这两架2001年交付的运八特种飞机正在在空军某试验基地大密集度试飞，累计飞行已达1018个小时，18 70个起落。按迄今40个月计算，平均达到每一个月47个起落，25个多小时。目前估计已经接近尾声或者试 飞项目全部结束，入役是近期的事情。

高新三号于2003年8月26日首飞成功。最新的高新四号将于近期内首飞。我在新闻里发现今年将要首飞的这 个高新工程带有专门的"卫星通讯天线罩"，目前已经完成了静力试验。一般的飞机应该不会有专门的"卫星通讯天线罩"，这说明飞机可以进行天-空-地一体化的通讯！！这也与简氏提到的空中指挥机方案相符合。这个方案应该类似美国的E8空中指 挥机。

“高新工程”型号总设计师是丁重舜，目前在互联网上找不到关于该总师的任何信息。首席试飞员则是著名的试飞 英雄邹延龄。试飞中的一大特点是有许多次飞行每次时间都在5个小时以上，而不是传统的1比1试 飞. “高新一号工程”首架样机科研试飞先后进行了平台调查试飞和任务系统试飞，历时近5个月，共飞行37架次， 累计飞行81小时而胜利结束。
AVIC2 mentionned that Y-8 AWACS could be used for navy, but it's weight is 2.5 times that of E-2C and even Y-7 is larger than E-2C, only Y-12 seems to fit the carrier AWACS description.
值得一提的是，我在“从AVIC2新闻解读二集团的预警机项目”中提出该预警机有可能是用于海军的“大平台 ”项目，经过仔细核查飞机数据，发现我实在是错得离谱！实际上运8比美国航母的预警机E-2C“鹰眼”大得多，其最大起飞重量竟是后者的2.5倍，连运7也比E-2C大不小。目前，从大小分析，运12 似乎最可能适合用于航母舰载机，但是其结构根本不能满足弹射和抵抗海上高盐雾、高湿的侵袭的要求，当然如果 将运七进行专门的修改，上舰也不是不可能，而且西飞有一款运七是专门设计的长航程飞机1999年12月25 日首飞上天，留空时间长达10个小时，在相关的新闻里也提到可以作为预警机之用。不知道我们是否的确有类似 的计划。

Recently, Lab14 also designed rotodome radar similar to the one on IL76 (KJ-2000's radar). The first is balance beam, uses three antennas, A, B and C. A is 4.88 m.
目前所知一号的预警机不同于南京14所在IL76基础上研制的带旋转天线圆盘的预警机，因为前者是平衡木样 式的。可见二者的雷达系统显著不同。“平衡木” 运8带有3个天线罩，分别是A罩、B罩和C罩，其中A罩长达4米88，有一则新闻里提到的“重点工程飞机雷 达罩B罩”就是其中之一。陕飞小有名气的段正才正是因为圆满解决了这三个雷达罩的研制工艺方案才获得了“十 大杰出青年”称号。
Not sure if the rotodome Y-8 is also part of the "high new" project. Maybe there are two types, one balance beam and one rotodome, seems like a little bit of a waste. Maybe one is for the airforce and one is for the navy.
曾经在网上看到一幅运8带有旋转圆盘的飞机模型和一架装有旋转圆盘的飞机实物，不过不知道是不是“高新工程 ”之一。也有一种可能就是一号是平衡木的，二号是圆盘的。但是这样似乎是一种浪费，我更倾向于二者是两种不 同性能的计划，如果说二者分别是为空军和海军研制，也不是不可能的（毕竟，大事记里多次提到空军和海军非常 重视高新工程）。当然实验性的进行比较（主要是雷达性能）二者的优缺点也未尝不可。现在据说“高新工程”是 平衡木和圆盘都有。
Y-8 is used because it's much cheaper and we can pretty much test any radar on it.
既然我们都已经看到了目前正在南京试飞的大预，那么二集团为什么还要研制另一个型号的预警机呢？目前还不知 道真实原因，但其原因可能有两个：一个是为了省钱，毕竟运8是自己的平台，比起IL76来便宜得多。其二可 能是为了测试不同的雷达体系对作战的要求。

今年5月13日中航二集团的新闻中曾提到“运八飞机中段天线舱”，在另一则陕飞集团董事长兼总经理胡晓峰走 访01基地的新闻里，我们能看到在运8内部有几个很舒适的座椅与飞机竖轴平行排列，说明设备就在沿着机舱方 向排列，这也与预警机的配置相符。

总之，二集团至少有一款是属于使用“平衡木”的预警机计划以及其他的高新工程项目。该计划将进一步促进我天 朝的预警和指挥体系发展。

[muyang523]

Y-8 command post
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/surveillance/Y-8C3I.jpg

Rumored Boeing 737 command post
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/gallery/B-737a.jpg

I have a question, what do command post do?

[tphuang]

Command post, I guess it's basically where the general sit and get closer to the line of action?

Anyhow, here is an article on Y-8X. Looks like the MPA, I'm not sure.
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/6453/129158832005120515340033606200.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[MIGleader]

isnt that the y-8j with the skymaster radar?
the maritime patrol version is this one:
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/specialaircraft/y8mpa.asp

[tphuang]

isnt that the y-8j with the skymaster radar?
the maritime patrol version is this one:
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/specialaircraft/y8mpa.asp
Yeah, I was a little confused about that. The picture looked like Y-8j with that huge nose, but the article made no mention of the skymaster radar or the fact that we got it from UK. And Y-8X is the code that huitong used for mpa.

Shoot, reread the article again, I got the Y-8X part mixed up. Yeah, it has to be Y-8J.

[sumdud]

There are so many EW variants of the Y-8, it gets soooo confusing. X_X
It'll be nice though if all the variants of the Y-8 flew in formation and a picture was taken. :)

But as for AWACS
The Y-8J isn't bad for a start. And I would guess it is safer to have the radar on your nose than on your back connected with three sticks.
The plane is good, but
At the aircraft’s normal cruising altitude, the Y-8J can have a 200-mile range, giving it a potential footprint 400 miles wide.
and
Accommodated in the aircraft’s nose radome, the I-band pulse Doppler radar has a detection range of 85km (look-down mode) or 110km (look-up mode). With its 360 degree coverage, the system is capable of detecting objects as small as submarine periscope within its range. Doesn't match up. Maybe it's a typo? Or I am missing out on some math? :confused:

Maybe it will work with the command posts? (1 AWACS= 1 AEW+ 1 Command post, right? Expect you have a team instead of a colonel on the chair.)
It somehow seems to be a waste to scrap it now.
China is definitely not going to make much KJ-2000. That'll sacrifice too much Il-76s and worn down the logistics movement.
We can get a lot of Y-8 AWACS, but they really have a giant loophole if the beam covers only the front and back 120 degrees. :\

[slackpiv]

my biggest question to the designers of the kj-2000 is why house the radar in a dome. Why not do what the israelis with the falcons? It reduces sooooo much drag on the plane.

[darth sidious]

proven layout

relible if you look at chinas defence industry all of the weapons they produce are improve version of the previous if it works why change it??

also the kj-2000 maybe be experimental in the future there may very welll be different layout

[tphuang]

posted a summary of it on the JF-17 thread. Anyhow, this is the actual interview with the "dean?" of China's radar development house?
http://www.news.uestc.edu.cn/ReadNews.dll?S_NewsID=18391
A lot of surprising details coming out, normally China doesn't reveal this much about its development.
一身朴素的衣装，满头规整的银发，精神矍铄快言快语的中国工程院院士王小谟面对我校学术交流中心挤挤攘攘的 听讲者，没有过多的客套，一步跨上讲台，开始分析起“雷达发展的趋势”。
　　雷达，一个国家电子工业的标志
　　身为我国雷达工程专家，王小谟院士非常明确地指出：雷达，这个于1935年诞生在英国的探测器，长期以 来包括现在也一直是一个国家电子工业的标志。
　　我国从1954年开始成功研制出了中程警戒雷达，历经数十年的艰辛努力，目前我国雷达研制已经涵盖了低 空、超低空、高空、三座标、预警等种类齐全的雷达系统。而某型雷达获得2005年国家一等奖，则标志着我国 地面雷达已经进入了国际先进行列。
　　“我国总体水平滞后国际5到10年，部分与国际同步。”王院士寄望在座青年，“希望在座各位为我国雷达 贡献力量，把这5到10年的差距缩小、消灭，与国际同步。”
　　未来雷达发展趋势是什么？王院士自有答案。“雷达已经是一个情报链中的一环，是网络中的一个节点，雷达 不再孤军作战。”王院士用了《三国演义》中的开篇语，“分久必合，合久必分，多功能雷达系统将是下一步的发 展方向。”
　　而随着能高温工作、具备高抗辐射、频率更高、功率更大、处理速度更快的第三代半导体的出现，雷达研制出 现了“数字前移、结构开放”的趋势，“专门工艺减少，研究重点不断调整，修改和更新周期更加快速，”王院士 总结道，“雷达像其它产品一样，会有更多参与者，更新换代加快，希望大家参与进来。”
　　争口气，研制出了“我们自己的预警机”
　　日前，国家正式向全世界公布了我国自主研制的预警飞机，由此结束了我国没有预警机的历史。但国产预警机 研制的背后，是一段国人奋发图强的历史。
　　曾经，我国派出专家组远赴以色列，准备购买某型飞机，“但那款飞机技术极为简单”，王院士回忆说，“以 色列还不卖。”回国后，王院士下了定语，老外越不卖，我们越要做出来！
　　当时某中央领导鼓励专家们，“我们一定要争口气，研制出来后请美国总统来看看我们自己的预 警飞机。”
　　“在与航空设计师无数次面红耳赤的争吵后”，中国人终于有了自己的预警机，“在目前是世界上最先进的预 警机，这一点是当之无愧的。”
　　更具有突破意义的是，我国雷达研制已经从仿制型科研向自主型科研转变，“自主创新是必须的。”王院士对 这一点看得很重。
　　隐形飞机不是万能的
　　一段时间，人们从电影里看到隐形飞机驰骋在天空如入无人之境，雷达似乎对它无能为力，隐形飞机赚取了大 把大把的赞誉，似乎成了无法克制的战争法宝。但王院士一语道出了它的真实面貌，“隐形飞机也有 很多弱点。”
　“隐形飞机是雷达系统长期研究的对象之一，”王院士揭密说，“不要把隐身材料看得很神秘，比如典型的隐形 飞机F117，它也有致命的弱点，最大的特点是镜面集中反射，反射很大，利用组网雷达就可在不同方位检测出 来。还有，国外的寂寞哨兵雷达对隐身就看得很清楚。”
“任何东西都是有很多弱点的，”王院士意味深长地说，“对付隐身目标，我们还是有一定把握的。”
　　电子科大要综合学科优势，变成“电子强国”
　　王院士对我校的学科实力是比较欣赏的，“电子科技大学是在电子系统非常全面的学校，有关各方面的力量较 强，在争取成为‘211’大学时就因为具有相关综合力量而胜出。”
“成电还应该加强在微波方面的研究，而不仅是在毫米波方面。”王院士建议，“搞微波是你们学校非常强的一方 面，而且微波领域多，搞好了可以一枝独秀，况且整个电子行业非常需要这方面的人才。”
“希望将现有优势学科综合结合，变成‘电子强国’。”王院士有着更高的期待。
　　在接受记者采访时，王院士也对我校学子提出了殷切希望，“虽然学电子很辛苦，希望不断学习，不断努力， 既然干了这一行，就要坚持努力下去，才能取得更好的成绩。”
　　王小谟，上海人，中国工程院院士，雷达工程专家。
他于1961年毕业于北京工业学院（现北京理工大学）无线电工程系雷达技术，历任电子部第三十八研究所总工 程师、所长，中国电子工业总公司军工局局长，电子科学研究院常务副院长，1995年5月当选中国工程院院士 。为第九届、第十届全国人民代表大会代表，现任中国电子科技集团公司科技委副主任，电子科学研究院学位评定 委员会副主席等职务。
　　几十年来，他一直在科研第一线从事雷达设计研制工作，他设计研制了多种具有国际先进水平的雷达，尤其在 三坐标雷达和低空雷达方面卓有建树，为国家创造出较大的经济效益，为军事电子工业的发展做出了重大贡献。2 0世纪60 年代创造性提出脉内扫描方法，使雷达系统大大简化。20世纪 70年代担任JY－ 8 雷达主设计师，研制成功我国第一部自动化引导雷达。20世纪80年代主持设计的JY-9雷达，具有较好的低空性能，在国外的演习和综合评分中名列前茅，获得了国内外多部订货，是国际上优秀低空 雷达。他亲自主持的项目分别于1985年和1996年获国家科技进步一等奖，部科技进步特等奖2项、一等奖 1项。

[swimmerXC]

...
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/9961/kj2000225061qa.jpg
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/3457/t8225065pz.jpg
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/8245/dish225063wt.jpg

[Elite-Pilot]

Hello everyone, previously President Musharraf of Pakistan was interested in the Y-8J, that would be the AWACS with the big round nose, similar to the Israeli Phalcon AWACS. It uses a "Sky Master" radar with a range reportedly of 85km, 360 degree coverage. But I was thinking, today fighters can shoot BVR missiles from ranges of 70-75 km. So then shouldn't the Y-8J's radar system have a but more range to it? The Erieye has a coverage of 300km! Maybe I am not sure, but I believe the Sky master range is 85km. If the PAF decides to purchase the Y-8J to compliment the Erieyes, it'd be the first user to use this particular AWACS system. Thus, enabling the PAF to have more reliability in it own individual Air Force. I am glad the PLAAF is concentrating to make ELINT,Maritime patrol and AWACS versions of the Y-8 transport air craft. From recent news, I remeber reading something about the Y-9. Will this Transport air craft have these types of other platforms; for example like the AWACS version. If there is such a thing, the take off weight can hold more and allowing the dish/balance beam to be bigger. That'll bring the Y-9 more coverage.

If the PLAAF decides to do this, it can rely on itself in the AWACS section and then would not need further help from the Russians. :china:

[Sea Dog]

Hello everyone, previously President Musharraf of Pakistan was interested in the Y-8J, that would be the AWACS with the big round nose, similar to the Israeli Phalcon AWACS. It uses a "Sky Master" radar with a range reportedly of 85km, 360 degree coverage.

If the PAF decides to purchase the Y-8J to compliment the Erieyes, it'd be the first user to use this particular AWACS system. Thus, enabling the PAF to have more reliability in it own individual Air Force. I am glad the PLAAF is concentrating to make ELINT,Maritime patrol and AWACS versions of the Y-8 transport air craft. From recent news, I remeber reading something about the Y-9. Will this Transport air craft have these types of other platforms; for example like the AWACS version. If there is such a thing, the take off weight can hold more and allowing the dish/balance beam to be bigger. That'll bring the Y-9 more coverage.



Don't forget, this aircraft (Y-8) is supposedly going to be used for some type of electronic jamming in addition to the other missions listed. So yes, it looks to be very useful. I wouldn't doubt Pakistan shows a desire to bring this aircraft into their inventory. To answer your question about Y-9, I believe it's the transport version only. Y-8 will cover most of the other duties. Tphuang may be able to correct me here. I'm not sure if it will be configurable like Y-8, but then again, I don't see why not from an engineering standpoint. And again, isn't Y-9 airframe derived from Y-8 anyway? Or at least very similar?

[tphuang]

you are totally wrong here. Y-8J is an AEW used to detect sea objects. It's main job is to coordinate strikes for the DDGs and such. What Musharraf came to see is the mushrrom Y-8. Which is basically the mysterious third type of AWACS with pla. It basically put that KJ-2000 style phased array radar on top of a Y-8. Y-8F600 is pretty much the standard platform that China is using for all of its special mission duties. Y-9 is pretty much just Y-8F600, but using domestic components. So, it would pretty much serve similar purposes.

[Sea Dog]

you are totally wrong here. Y-8J is an AEW used to detect sea objects. It's main job is to coordinate strikes for the DDGs and such. What Musharraf came to see is the mushrrom Y-8. Which is basically the mysterious third type of AWACS with pla. It basically put that KJ-2000 style phased array radar on top of a Y-8. Y-8F600 is pretty much the standard platform that China is using for all of its special mission duties. Y-9 is pretty much just Y-8F600, but using domestic components. So, it would pretty much serve similar purposes.

Thanks for your correction here. I had no idea that Y-8 was split into these two categories. A naval support one and an airborne command AWACS. I understand now what you mean about Y-9 also.

[swimmerXC]

For all of you who don't believe, China's newest Y-8 BATTLEFIELD SURVEILLANCE AIRCRAFT flying
http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Type_wmv/2006-5-23-Y8T5.wmv

[duskylim]

Hi Guys!

Its good to see the PLAAF/PLA investing in platforms and systems that serve to enhance their overall combat capabilities. The development of AWACS/AEWACS of the KLJ2000 and Y8 series as well as ELINT, EW as well as other versions (command, communication, JSTARS etc.) show that the PLA high command now appreciates the role of 'force multipliers' in modern air warfare. (That conclusion may be of course inaccurate, perhaps the reason we are seeing a proliferation of so many platforms currently is simply that only recently has money become available and research programs borne fruit!).

IMO this is one of the better ways for defense money to be spent. The limited funds available to a developing country like China mean that not all programs or projects can be funded. AWACS, ELINT and EW investment will ensure not only improved detection and characterization of threats, but also the possibility of their disruption and degradation (via EW). They also take advantage of China's rapidly developing electronics industry. Furthermore, the presence of these platforms greatly enhances the limited capabilities of China's large but mainly obsolescent fleet of combat aircraft.

The use of indigenously manufactured platforms (like the Y7, Y8 and maybe Y9) is icing on the cake, as they are cheaper, have an existing production infrastructure, and can be readily modified in-house to suite the needs of the client, (greatly enhancing security and independance), all the while keeping money flowing to their manufacturers, allowing for future investment and improvement. All in all a big plus for the developement of a comprehensive defense industry.

[WebMaster]

Y-8 command post
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/surveillance/Y-8C3I.jpg

Rumored Boeing 737 command post
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/gallery/B-737a.jpg

I have a question, what do command post do?

:nono: Either ATTACH the pictures or UPLOAD at sites that will ALLOW you to LINK back, such as THIS! (http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/showgallery.php/cat/9)

[tphuang]

a new KJ-2000 caught on photo B-4041
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3029/b4041july25ic5.jpg
I suspect there is also a B-4042
giving us the original #762 and then B-4040-4043
or maybe the original one got repainted.

[Totoro]

So just how are we to know if planes do get repainted and renumbered or not? Theoretically, there could be as many as five kj2000, right? But what if not only the first one, #762 got renumbered but what if plaaf is purposefully repainting same two planes with B-40xx system? There's certainly a valid reason why they might want to try to do it if they have hangars large enough to accept multiple kj2000 which would then prove it impossible for US satellite recon to determine just how many are there. Not to mention that satellites are tracked and their coverage is far from 24/7, even for a small area.

[tphuang]

So just how are we to know if planes do get repainted and renumbered or not? Theoretically, there could be as many as five kj2000, right? But what if not only the first one, #762 got renumbered but what if plaaf is purposefully repainting same two planes with B-40xx system? There's certainly a valid reason why they might want to try to do it if they have hangars large enough to accept multiple kj2000 which would then prove it impossible for US satellite recon to determine just how many are there. Not to mention that satellites are tracked and their coverage is far from 24/7, even for a small area.
I guess the one way would be to compare the photos. Actually, I personally can't tell the difference between the KJ-2000 modified from A-50 and IL-76, but someone with a good set of eyes probably can.

As for 4 plane, this is something that I read on the Chinese forum from a guy called "spoiler dude" or something like that. He has quite a good reputation there. Basically, he said that there are 4 KJ-2000 joining service at the end of 2005 (following the original Phalcon plan I guess).

[duskylim]

Dear TP:

Great new pic! Hopefully there will be more to come. BTW IIRC there were previous posts of the hangers for the KJ-2000 series where several aircraft were seen parked together...

As for the disk configuration of the rotodome, in the original Boeing Sentry (E-3 series) there is a large slotted planar array that is rotated slowly (at about 6 revs/min) by a hydraulic unit.

The array consists of a series of rectangular section beams that are stacked one on top of the other and are fed from waveguides. The longest beams are in the center of the array, with progressively shorter beams stacked above and below as you move away from the middle.

The rotodome itself is basically an aerodynamic fairing to cover the large slotted array. So its like a giant (albeit extremely flat oval-shaped) planar type slotted array antenna. Like what you would see in a typical fighter except of course much bigger and much more powerful.

The beam can be electronically steered through a limited angle although it relies on hydraulics to perform a 360 degree scan.

The KJ-2000 system stacks 3 shorter phased arrays in an equilateral triangle configuration with electronic beam steering. This eliminates the need to rotate the antenna assemble to scan.

The technology of the phased array allows for this. Because it relies on phase shifting, there is no output at an electronic scan of 90 degrees - the crests and troughs of the waves simply cancel out! The effective scan angle is about 60 degrees away from the perpendicular.

Hope this helps,

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim

[Totoro]

almost all articles on esa i've read concur that there's visible degradation beyond 45 degrees from the axis, with 60 degrees being maximum that's useful, anything beyond makes the range/resolution drop very sharply. So question might be - why not put 4 arrays each covering the ideal 90 deg arc, instead of 3 arrays each covering 120 deg? Could it be that the price/weight/power usage is that much greater?

arj21 would make a very good (if not excellent! :D) awacs platform. (any not just awacs platform but that's another story) IF non US engines can be installed, as there's no way US would let GE engines on military version. I wonder if it'd be viable to go for russian ps-90 high bypass turbofan series, especially if they're already being used on il76. Anyone have that info? are the upcoming 30 il76 gonna be using d30kp like older il76 china has or are they gonna be using ps90a-76?

[crobato]

If you have four arrays on a square, than three arrays in a triangle, guess what, measure the length of each array. You will notice it's shorter. A shorter array would mean less reception range. Ergo, lower detection ranges as a result.

[Totoro]

Range would be lower beyond 45 deg off axis anyway. It's all nice and dandy, but i wish we had some equations showing just how much does high off bore angle beam steering does influence range, as well as how much range is gained by longer array area. I guess we can try interpolating from other radars but for that we'd need to know their power and clutter processing abilities. So one can compare benefits with costs. I guess plaaf concluded true 360 deg coverage is just not as important, seeing how kj200 lacks it and even kj2000 doest give same range across 360 deg view.

[crobato]

That's because you can always fly and adjust your direction to put the target right into the radar's sweet spot. These planes do not travel in a straight line, you know.

[Totoro]

I am not saying benefits of kj2000 array don't outweigh the costs, maybe they do. I was just observing the difference in logic between various awacs systems. I guess it will be interesting to see what logic will next gen US awacs use, when it gets a true ESA array.

also, a plane will always have to make some turns, it can't afford to position itself so target is in radar's sweet spot and just keep going on like that. There's a reason why awacs planes usually fly in 8 shaped paths. So with lack of 360 coverage one might have good coverage 95% of the time but there's always that bit while turning compromises the coverage. Granted, in practical real world terms it's very hard to take significant advantage of that but theoretically it's still possible. :D

[tphuang]

I am not saying benefits of kj2000 array don't outweigh the costs, maybe they do. I was just observing the difference in logic between various awacs systems. I guess it will be interesting to see what logic will next gen US awacs use, when it gets a true ESA array.

also, a plane will always have to make some turns, it can't afford to position itself so target is in radar's sweet spot and just keep going on like that. There's a reason why awacs planes usually fly in 8 shaped paths. So with lack of 360 coverage one might have good coverage 95% of the time but there's always that bit while turning compromises the coverage. Granted, in practical real world terms it's very hard to take significant advantage of that but theoretically it's still possible. :D
didn't we see a photo a while back, where the radome turned slightly? That could possibly cover some weak spots.

[crobato]

I am not saying benefits of kj2000 array don't outweigh the costs, maybe they do. I was just observing the difference in logic between various awacs systems. I guess it will be interesting to see what logic will next gen US awacs use, when it gets a true ESA array.

also, a plane will always have to make some turns, it can't afford to position itself so target is in radar's sweet spot and just keep going on like that. There's a reason why awacs planes usually fly in 8 shaped paths. So with lack of 360 coverage one might have good coverage 95% of the time but there's always that bit while turning compromises the coverage. Granted, in practical real world terms it's very hard to take significant advantage of that but theoretically it's still possible. :D


Notice that if you put the array in a balance beam you get the longest length. Length of the array is important because the more surface area an array has the longer the potential detection range. The bad part of it is that the array can be dangerous against side winds and crosswinds. I'm not really surprised that the Y-8 Balance beam plane crashed.

On some of the US planes, you have the arrays back to back going across the length of the dish. That's two arrays, mind you, and they offer the largest reception area possible as you can see. The thing is, you need to mechanically rotate the arrays. Those movements and shifts in positions create shifts in gravity in the plane that affects the plane's stability.

Without any movement and the advantage of using an aerodynamic dish, the triangle arranged phase arrays as you can see might offer the best compromise between array size and flight stability.

[tphuang]

http://www.paktribune.com/news/print.php?id=150966

ISLAMABAD: A high powered Chinese Defence delegation is due to arrive here shortly for a test and trial of their Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS).

The team is arriving just moths after Pakistan announced it was going ahead with the purchase of the Swedish Early Warning System (ERIEYE).

The Chinese system is said to be cost-effective and state of the art which is designed for both Airborne Early Warning (AEW) and Airborne Command and Control (AC&C) missions.

Pakistan has been in need of such a system for continuous surveillance of border and sea lanes of communication.

The system from China represents the current best choice of AWACS with powerful mission capability and availability in a cost effective package.

lol, we saw Y-8 AEW coming out a while back and was speculating who it's offered to. Let's see how Pakistan rates this system. Personally, it is a little bit puzzling that China still thinks Pakistan would purchase its AEW after already purchased Erieye.

[Totoro]

Lets talk about the future. How many awacs systems would china need? I'd think that depends on the threat and since it's always best to plan for the worst, that threat would be massive US strikes on china's soil (that's just for illustration of level of threat, lets not discuss it further)

4 planes seem to be a number that allows to have one plane on station at any time, for as long as it takes. 3 would also do it for a week or two, but sooner or later there'd have to be some big maintenance work done.

Knowing range needs to be at least till the horizon, some 430 km at 10 km altitude and knowing how many points around china need to have awacs coverage (near korea, near afghanistan, near india, vietnam, taiwan, across japan etc) one could calculate that for worst scenario (where threats come from all those direction at the same time - granted, unrealistic but theoretically possible) china would need 12 planes on station at any given time. Depending on effectiveness of sharing of resources between various areas, thats 36-48 awacs system in total. Possible (desirable) attrition reserve not counted.

I hope china will, in some 10 year time period, be able to produce and field (and maintain) such a fleet. Of course, real world teaches us that budget constraints usually half any real but i guess even as few as 18 systems would not be that bad - though it might prove to be too much for a scenario where taiwan is invaded, where there's war between koreas, where US is threatening from afghanistan and from over india/vietnam while placing carriers more or less across whole coast.

I do hope in that long term china will field a mix of airliner converted awacs for max flight endurance with transport based awacs fleet which could operate from unprepared and unpaved runways.

If true that 4 kj2000 have entered service then there should be little to prevent from further units entering service during the coming years. Basically, anything less than another 4 (of any kind, doesnt have to be kj2000) in the next 365 days could signal total numbers meant to be fielded are gonna be closer to russia's awacs fleet than to one of US of A.

[kursed]

A Pakistani member on KeyPublishing is claiming that today morning at 6am PST he saw an AWACS plane with the radome painted in white on Chaklala Airbase. And I just read the whole thread and as tpuhang has already pointed it out it might be the Y-8 derivative with a KJ-2000 styled radar on top.

[kooe]

the news i heard this morning..... china is promotin AWACS to pakistan...
Islamabad, Jul 29 (ANI): A Chinese defence delegation will soon visit Pakistan to showcase their country's Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) following Islamabad's recent announcement to purchase a similar system from Swedish arms major Saab AB.

Pakistan recently concluded a 1.14 billion dollar deal with Swedish aerospace and defence company Saab AB for the AWACS in a bid to enhance its air space security and counter Indian's Phalcons airborne warning system, reports the Daily Times.

Pakistan currently relies on ground based radars for its security and security officials had said the country needed a surveillance device to ensure the security of its borders and underwater communication system.

They said AWACS were the most cost effective and powerful system for early warning, and command and control missions and together with the existing ground-based RADARS, will provide a more detailed picture, enabling Pakistan to detect different threats to the country.

The SAAB-Ericsson Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) deal with Pakistan was first announced in October 2005, and includes a Saab 2000 turboprop jet equipped with airborne radars from Ericsson Microwave Systems.

Pakistan had made the choice between Saab's Erieye and Boeing's 737 AEWS and settled for the former because of the latter's prohibitive cost. (ANI)

http://in.news.yahoo.com/060729/139/669iu.html

[maglomanic]

I am just not sure what is Pakistan trying to do here. Deal with Ercison is done deal. Why they are bringing in Chinese AWACS late into equation? I don't think Pakistan has that kind of money. Probably China will offer a complete Package including JF-17,J-10 and AWACS. Or maybe the radome AWACS offers something that the blanace beam Erieye lacks. Anyone??

[kursed]

360 degree radar coverage?

[maglomanic]

Erieye has 360 degree coverage. Search for Greek Erieye deal and it's details.

[duskylim]

Dear Sirs:

If there are no other antennas in the Erieye system then the systems' coverage cannot be 360 degrees. This is because to electronically steer the beam we emit progressively delayed wavefronts from the small antennas along the face of the array.

As the wavefronts add up they form a strong sum signal in the desired direction. Each wave emitted is slightly out of phase with the next - except in the desired direction - hence the name phased array.

As can be seen from geometry, the width of the beam decreases the farther away from perpendicular we steer the beam. The beam width is proportional to the cosine of the steering angle. So at 45 degrees it is equal to 0.707... at 60 degrees 0.500 and at 90 degrees it is 0.

Incidentally the best introduction I have read into this techonology is from the September 1981 issue of Scientific American - it was written by the Raytheon engineers who designed Cobra Judy and Cobra Dane.

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim

[maglomanic]

Allegedly this is the photo of Chinese AWACS from Chaklala airbase.

It was posted by Usman Shabir on PakDef.info.Credits to him.

[maglomanic]

Dear Sirs:

If there are no other antennas in the Erieye system then the systems' coverage cannot be 360 degrees. This is because to electronically steer the beam we emit progressively delayed wavefronts from the small antennas along the face of the array.


Since 1981 alot of shortcomings have been over come in terms of technology generally speaking.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/s100b_argus/

"The Erieye radar provides 360° coverage with optimum performance of the radar over the 150° azimuthal sectors on each side of the aircraft. The radar can detect fighter aircraft at a range of 350km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environment, in heavy radar clutter and at low target altitudes. The radar has a sea surveillance mode.

Please kindly search for "Erieye 360 coverage" (no quotes) and you ll find enough links

"

[maglomanic]

http://www.ausairpower.net/aew-aesa.html


How 360 shortcoming could be over come in Erieye



"This arrangement however suffers from an obvious and significant operational limitation, as it cannot provide 360 degree coverage, using conventional active phased array technology. With each array scanning a 120 degree sector, the two sided array has a 60 degree blind sector over the nose and the tail of the aircraft, and degraded antenna performance beyond 45 degrees off the beam of the aircraft. With Sweden's compact geography this would probably not be an issue, as multiple platforms would cover a single area, and operating in pairs, the aircraft could patrol in two racetrack orbits set 90 degrees apart to provide overlapping coverage. The success of this scheme then devolves down to the capability of the computer datalink networking which links the platforms to each other or the ground air defence centre, to ensure that a comprehensive picture of the air situation exists at whatever is the central command post.

In a heavy ECM environment, where platform to platform or platform to ground datalink function is interfered with, the two sided array has thus a major limitation. Producing a three or four sided array with similar array length results in a structure with a size comparable to an E-3 AWACS radome, which in turn requires at least a 737 sized aircraft to carry it, thereby largely defeating the apparent cost advantage of the linear array concept.

A possible resolution would be the use of a supergain array, where the ultimate size of the blind sector would be determined by the array's module parameters and array length.

Another alternative which exists is the use of a rhombic four sided array geometry, with a 60-120-60-120 degree arrangement of arrays. While the rhombic arrangement will provide full 360 degree coverage, its effective antenna length is halved in the nose and tail sectors. The result is a compromise between the bulky but excellent four or three sided array, and the compact but partially blind two sided array. No publicly discussed proposals to date have involved the rhombic arrangement.

"

[tphuang]

Since 1981 alot of shortcomings have been over come in terms of technology generally speaking.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/s100b_argus/

"The Erieye radar provides 360° coverage with optimum performance of the radar over the 150° azimuthal sectors on each side of the aircraft. The radar can detect fighter aircraft at a range of 350km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environment, in heavy radar clutter and at low target altitudes. The radar has a sea surveillance mode.

Please kindly search for "Erieye 360 coverage" (no quotes) and you ll find enough links

"
That seems to quote 60 degrees of connected weak spot.

Anyhow, some new pictures of Chinese AWACS. I personally hate grabbing pictures off this forum, but they seem to provide some of the best pictures.
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/9542/b4041aug1sj1.jpg

I guess they are continuing with the KJ-200 project after all.
http://img317.imageshack.us/img317/6548/kj200aug1bh7.jpg
The airframes looks like the first KJ-200 that took off
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/surveillance/Y-8-beam1.jpg
which was on a Y-8F200 airframe

[maglomanic]

That seems to quote 60 degrees of connected weak spot.


Not blind spot however. Just that it's optimum 150 degrees on each side.


P.S did you check the Chinese AWACS in Pakistan pic i posted?? Any comments? Is that a PAR?

[Totoro]

There's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't go on with kj200 project. It is silly to think that array itself was the cause of the crash. At best, a sudden gust of wind could've been the cause, like crobato once said but even that is an off chance compared with what statistics say - planes crash all the time. For various reasons. And balance beam design has been successful on various plane platform for quite some time now. Also, chances are that people that died were operators for that particular plane, not the lead engineers for the whole kj200 program. It's still a good concept and a cheaper alternative to kj2000.

[tphuang]

http://top.jschina.com.cn/bbs/noncgi/usr/img/060801162224__1_1154.jpg

From Chinese forum, apparently, the Y-8 was 200 to 220 km from the Japanese airspace. It's still farther out than EP-3's venture near Hainan a few years back, but I'm sure the Japanese military is not so amused.

[Sea Dog]

There's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't go on with kj200 project. It is silly to think that array itself was the cause of the crash. At best, a sudden gust of wind could've been the cause, like crobato once said but even that is an off chance compared with what statistics say - planes crash all the time. For various reasons. And balance beam design has been successful on various plane platform for quite some time now. Also, chances are that people that died were operators for that particular plane, not the lead engineers for the whole kj200 program. It's still a good concept and a cheaper alternative to kj2000.


I totally agree. I don't think any nation including China would put their lead engineers for a project like this on one single aircraft. No doubt they lost some talented people working on the project. But the knowledge base is still likely intact and the kj2000 program won't see any long-term negative consequences as a result.

[maglomanic]

More Pics from Pakistan:

http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/8460/200651118134954830eo8.jpg

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/8351/200651118143031567tv5.jpg

[maglomanic]

http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/8620/chineseawacs01cn2.jpg

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/5907/chineseawacs04rh4.jpg

[tphuang]

thanks for the photos Maglomanic. btw, man, I never asked what you would like to be referred as? Mag, Maglomanic, Maggy?

btw, you can just refer to me as Feng, since that's my real name.

As for the photos, the first two seems to be taken from China, since you can still see the pla emblem (or whatever you call it). The bottom 2 should be from Pakistan, since the pla emblem are referred. I have a feeling that Pakistan will get a real big discount on this if it does decide to buy it? Why? Aside from China's usual friendship with Pakistan, PAF will almost be the first user for this product. If things go well, there will be reasons for other countries to also put in orders. I mean if China is trying to sell something that nobody is using, then it would be extremely difficult to convince other countries to put in an order.

Also, if this does go through, then I forsee a national defensive network setup by China for Pakistan. Pakistan has already bought some YLC-2 radars and YLC-6 radar. The next step could be some long and short range SAM systems networked together. And possibly set up a C4ISR system similar to the Chinese one. But that's just my opinion.

[maglomanic]

thanks for the photos Maglomanic. btw, man, I never asked what you would like to be referred as? Mag, Maglomanic, Maggy?

btw, you can just refer to me as Feng, since that's my real name.

No prob :)
You can call me any of those , no worries. It's supposedly something that i derived from Megalomaniac (crazy about Incubus song :P ).

By the way my name is Farooq. I always thought your name is Phuang if that makes sense ..lol.


As for the photos, the first two seems to be taken from China, since you can still see the pla emblem (or whatever you call it).


Yeah what you r saying makes sense. I just noticed the chinese soldier standing next to plane.

The bottom 2 should be from Pakistan, since the pla emblem are referred. I have a feeling that Pakistan will get a real big discount on this if it does decide to buy it? Why? Aside from China's usual friendship with Pakistan, PAF will almost be the first user for this product. If things go well, there will be reasons for other countries to also put in orders. I mean if China is trying to sell something that nobody is using, then it would be extremely difficult to convince other countries to put in an order.

Also, if this does go through, then I forsee a national defensive network setup by China for Pakistan. Pakistan has already bought some YLC-2 radars and YLC-6 radar. The next step could be some long and short range SAM systems networked together. And possibly set up a C4ISR system similar to the Chinese one. But that's just my opinion.
I totally agree with your assesment of combined integrated network. But i am a bit skeptical of PAF buying this AWACS along with Erieye. Maybe when pakistan tries to induct J-10 at the same time they will induct a couple of those.

I have come across another theory though which seems plausible too. Probably Pakistan and China are trying to pit and test this system against NATO systems in Afghanistan and core Indian systems pitted against PAF on eastern border. If i am not wrong china has been using it's new AWACS to do lots of ELINT against US / Japanese assets. It would make sense for them to test it against NATO activities and southern rival India.

Just my two cents.


P.S if i m not wrong Pakistan already has C4I. I am not sure if it is any differnt from C4ISR. Pakistan has reportedly helped Bangladesh in implementing a similar system.

[challenge]

More Pics from Pakistan:

http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/8460/200651118134954830eo8.jpg

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/8351/200651118143031567tv5.jpg
the picture show that aircraft is still being develop,notice the absent of multiply blade antenna ,(each radar display consule is provided with independent jam proof radio (UHF) equipment to communcate with the friendly aircraft) ,link-W(?)( Chinese equivalent of Link-16) and ESM (E-3C ALR-1 ESM capapble of tracking airborne and surface emitter passively)

[maglomanic]

the picture show that aircraft is still being develop,notice the absent of multiply blade antenna ,(each radar display consule is provided with independent jam proof radio (UHF) equipment to communcate with the friendly aircraft) ,link-W(?)( Chinese equivalent of Link-16) and ESM (E-3C ALR-1 ESM capapble of tracking airborne and surface emitter passively)

Sorry but i just couldnt figure out which blades are you talking about and where are they missing from? Can you please point them out :)

[challenge]

Sorry but i just couldnt figure out which blades are you talking about and where are they missing from? Can you please point them out :)
I mean blade antenna,usually associate with UHF

[tphuang]

P.S if i m not wrong Pakistan already has C4I. I am not sure if it is any differnt from C4ISR. Pakistan has reportedly helped Bangladesh in implementing a similar system.
i'm sure Pakistan does, but there are plenty of improvements that you can make to your C4I.

[tphuang]

http://paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?151362
probably the best place to post this.

Talking to private TV channel on Wednesday, General Ahsan-ul-Haq further said Pakistan has sought help from China in field of Space Technology adding that JF 17 thunder aircrafts are being prepared with the joint collaboration of China and Pakistan Air Force (PAF).

Pakistan and China are taking initiatives to boost and strengthen the defence and security relations between them besides expanding bilateral relations, he added. He said negotiations are underway with China also for obtaining of F-10 warplanes.

China has made an "AWACS" airplane after America and now these days one of these aircrafts is in Pakistan adding we are reviewing manufacturing and functioning of AWACS plane after which negotiations would be held with China for their acquirement. The progress is underway to obtain 22 frigates for Pakistan Navy, he added.

Following visit of President Gen Pervez Musharraf to China, cooperation in Defence and security fields has been expedited.

Chairman JCSC Ahsan-ul-Haq expressed his gratitude for China's assistance in fields of defence and security.

Again, I'm amused at the kind of terrible journalism in these PakTribune defence related articles. 22 frigates? They mean F-22P? And this is even discounting the original reference of "OWAX" to "AWACS" in some of the other articles.

[maglomanic]

http://paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?151362
probably the best place to post this.


Again, I'm amused at the kind of terrible journalism in these PakTribune defence related articles. 22 frigates? They mean F-22P? And this is even discounting the original reference of "OWAX" to "AWACS" in some of the other articles.
I have only seen that Indian defense magzine IDRAW with 'OWAX'. However i have to completely agree with you that journalist in Pakistan having no knowledge on defense matters are reporting. It's really appaling.

[tphuang]

I have only seen that Indian defense magzine IDRAW with 'OWAX'. However i have to completely agree with you that journalist in Pakistan having no knowledge on defense matters are reporting. It's really appaling.
I think they got it from this article
http://thepakistaninewspaper.com/news_detail.php?id=6087

As I said on PDF. I truly do see this as Pakistani military looking to set up China's defensive network in its own backyard. And considering the amount of resources China has put into this, I'd say that's a wise choice.

[maglomanic]

As I said on PDF. I truly do see this as Pakistani military looking to set up China's defensive network in its own backyard. And considering the amount of resources China has put into this, I'd say that's a wise choice.

That would make perfect sense, since After Gawadar becomes operational China's western part will be economically integrated into Pakistan. There was another report i guess on this forum which said China already has intelligence posts in Gawadar region. Lets see when we see chinese fighters and Battleships in that region :)

[ikaleem]

The credibility of the newspaper is highly suspect...this is not a pakistani newspaper but rather a newspaper that we get here in Canada and US sold free in most indian or pakistani grocery stores. All these news papers have is a lot of adds and news items taken from different newspapers through internet and crudely re-produced.
I am not disputing that some the level of journalism in pakistan is very good but again would advise against believing anything posted in any of these rag newspapers

[tphuang]

The credibility of the newspaper is highly suspect...this is not a pakistani newspaper but rather a newspaper that we get here in Canada and US sold free in most indian or pakistani grocery stores. All these news papers have is a lot of adds and news items taken from different newspapers through internet and crudely re-produced.
I am not disputing that some the level of journalism in pakistan is very good but again would advise against believing anything posted in any of these rag newspapers
If I'm not wrong, the article that I posted is translated from this page http://www.khabrain.com/htmls/pg17.htm

I don't speak Urdu, so I really can't confirm that though.

[spc_ace]

Will the Chinese AWACS able to detect the stealth bombers?

[challenge]

Sorry but i just couldnt figure out which blades are you talking about and where are they missing from? Can you please point them out :)
question,if the US willing to sale Link-16 to PAF?

[kursed]

Block 52+ - 36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals

Source: DSCA (http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-09.pdf)

F-16 MLU - 60 Link 16 terminals

Source: DSCA (http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-10.pdf)

[maglomanic]

If I'm not wrong, the article that I posted is translated from this page http://www.khabrain.com/htmls/pg17.htm

I don't speak Urdu, so I really can't confirm that though.

TP,

This news item talks about Governer of a province in Pakistan called Panjab. He only mentioned China as an example of a country which has achieved economic successs and should be followed by Pakistan.

Also, i have to agree that the first link is one of those tabloid type newspaper available in overseas.

Here are links to some of the more respected and highly circulated news papers in Pakistan.

www.dawn.com
www.jang-group.com (it has two of newspapers one of which is in english: http://www.thenews.com.pk/)


But that said, even these newspapers screw up alot of times. Case in point the news item that was published in dawn regarding H2/H4. :o

[tphuang]

Interesting article from Kanwa,
http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/5958/24js5.jpg
http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/1557/25gq5.jpg
I actually have a little faith in this article, because I read on Chinese forums of people in Wuxi who saw KJ-2000 AWACS flying around. This article also agrees with 4 KJ-2000 being stationed in Wuxi along with 2 KJ-200 (surprisingly). The 4 KJ-2000 stationned in Wuxi are clearly in service. It said that one KJ-200 has been painted and the other hasn't. It also seems to agree with other assessment that KJ-200 is developed for the navy.

It also mentions the appearance of the Y-8 ECM type in Wuxi, possibly replacing the old HD5 ECM. HD-5 is already in the museum, so it's clear that Y-8 ECM has replaced it.
more on Y-8 ECM here
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/y-8x_sh-5_a-50i.htm

In any earlier article, it also mentionned seeing 1 KJ-2000 and 1 KJ-200 in the base in Gansu where China reported had constructed a Taiwanese airbase to do training.

[tphuang]

more Y-8
the battlefield surveillence variant
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/6174/y8battlefieldaug17mj5.jpg

Y-8 AEW's radar
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2633/y8aewaug17nd7.jpg

[Elite-Pilot]

The bottom 2 should be from Pakistan, since the pla emblem are referred. I have a feeling that Pakistan will get a real big discount on this if it does decide to buy it? Why? Aside from China's usual friendship with Pakistan, PAF will almost be the first user for this product. If things go well, there will be reasons for other countries to also put in orders. I mean if China is trying to sell something that nobody is using, then it would be extremely difficult to convince other countries to put in an order.

Also, if this does go through, then I forsee a national defensive network setup by China for Pakistan. Pakistan has already bought some YLC-2 radars and YLC-6 radar. The next step could be some long and short range SAM systems networked together. And possibly set up a C4ISR system similar to the Chinese one. But that's just my opinion.

Very Well said, What Pakistan really is trying to do is make an eastern and western arrangement in its security. The western part coming from Europe,America while the Eastern sector comes from China. get this....

Multirole fighters

West- Mirage,F-16 East- JF-17,J-10

Radars

West-TPS-77 East-YLC-6/2

AWACS

west-Erieye awacs East- Y-8 awacs

Pakistan has made this a strategy to avoid any pressure or embargo's. Believe it or not but this is working pretty good. Chinese equipment is getting better and better everyday, with prices much lower than the western equipment...they make a cost effective path for 3rd world nations and they are pleased by their services. In this case chinese Awacs (Y-8) is not too far behind either infact it is not behind at all.

[tphuang]

more battlefield surveillence variant photos.
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4082/y8battlefieldaug191cl6.jpg
http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/4792/y8battlefieldaug192pk6.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/6852/y8battlefieldaug193lo8.jpg

[duskylim]

Allright TP! Keep the pictures coming!

Questions:

Is this aircraft assigned to the PLAAF or the PLA?

Has it been confirmed that is indeed a JSTAR-like platform?

Who or what organization builds it?

Thanx

Dusky Lim

[tphuang]

Allright TP! Keep the pictures coming!

Questions:

Is this aircraft assigned to the PLAAF or the PLA?

Has it been confirmed that is indeed a JSTAR-like platform?

Who or what organization builds it?

Thanx

Dusky Lim
well, you should know who builds Y-8, the radar should be by 14th or 38th institute (huitong says 14th).

Has it been confirmed as a JSTAR like platform? No. To me, the one that huitong says is the jamming version could also be it, because of the canoe fairing on the bottom

I'm guessing this is assigned to plaaf, since the other aircraft using synthetic aperture radar (the tu-154) also entered into plaaf.

[tphuang]

battlefield surveillence photos

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/1544/y8battlefieldaug261al2.jpg
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9905/y8battlefieldaug262px6.jpg
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7320/y8battlefieldaug263qd5.jpg

[challenge]

Y-8 battlefield surveillance aircraft? since the Y-8 was deployed in coastal area,it probably some sort naval surveillance aircraft,rather than E-8 type aircraft.
antenna for battlefield surveillance aircraft such as E-8 ,israel CANEWS or ex-soviet AN-72 use long or canoe shape antenna,for maximum radar "foot print'.
while the antenna for the Y-8 to simple to small ,remember the uSN also employed SAR for long range target recognition and surveillance.

[tphuang]

Y-8 battlefield surveillance aircraft? since the Y-8 was deployed in coastal area,it probably some sort naval surveillance aircraft,rather than E-8 type aircraft.
antenna for battlefield surveillance aircraft such as E-8 ,israel CANEWS or ex-soviet AN-72 use long or canoe shape antenna,for maximum radar "foot print'.
while the antenna for the Y-8 to simple to small ,remember the uSN also employed SAR for long range target recognition and surveillance.
I wasn't aware this aircraft is already deployed, lol. I'm not even aware of where this is getting tested at.

If you read my previous post, you would see that I also suspect the one with canoe fairing on the bottom could also be the battlefield surveillence aircraft. But what is its real use? I'm not sure, so I'm going to use huitong's interpretation until further notice.

[challenge]

I wasn't aware this aircraft is already deployed, lol. I'm not even aware of where this is getting tested at.

If you read my previous post, you would see that I also suspect the one with canoe fairing on the bottom could also be the battlefield surveillence aircraft. But what is its real use? I'm not sure, so I'm going to use huitong's interpretation until further notice.
canoe shape fairing is to small,probably housing SIGINT/ESM antenna

[tphuang]

possibly a newly converted KJ-200?
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/236/kj200sep8qf0.jpg

[Sea Dog]

Looking at this, it may also have a primary role in maritime surveillance as opposed to just land battlefield surveillance. Or maybe it's application is dual.

[crobato]

possibly a newly converted KJ-200?
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/236/kj200sep8qf0.jpg

Possibly. I counted 3 balance beams all in different colors; grey like that one, civilian white with stripes, and one completely in yellow. I suppose the one that crashed was the one in yellow.

On Y-8 JSTAR, note the pod on top of the tail. Don't know what it is, but Y-8Balance Beam does not have it.

[challenge]

Allright TP! Keep the pictures coming!

Questions:

Is this aircraft assigned to the PLAAF or the PLA?

Has it been confirmed that is indeed a JSTAR-like platform?

Who or what organization builds it?

Thanx

Dusky Lim

Y-8 battle field surveillance aircraft???,the aircraft may house ISAR for long range naval target recognition.rather than JStar type SAR/MTI radar.
equivalent to USN/coast guard APQ-141.

[silverster]

HI ALL

I am Fred, new to this forum.:)



Just wondering, I heard on news recently one of those kj2000 crashed with 40 R&D people inside, can anyone conform this?

[tphuang]

HI ALL

I am Fred, new to this forum.:)



Just wondering, I heard on news recently one of those kj2000 crashed with 40 R&D people inside, can anyone conform this?

you should've searched through this forum first, but to summarize - a Y-8 surveillence plane (most likely KJ-200) crashed due to icing problems and some 20 R&D people died and including all victims, there were probably 40 people.

[challenge]

40 people were killed,including a ukrainian and pakistani engineers,it later turn out base commander allowed the test to proceed,despite strick regulation that 36 maximum people allowed inside the aircraftand deicing.
after the aircraft crashed, the commander(which I forget the name) attempted to erase certain portion of flight recorder.all in all 11 people were arrested.

[BLUEJACKET]

I wonder if A-50s or other AWACS planes can cover carrier ops in the Arabian sea/Indian Ocean. They could be based in Pakistan, Malaysia, Bangladesh & Burma and also fly over Tibet.
"Radar "Vega-M" designed by MNIIP, Moscow, produced by NPO Vega-M. "Vega-M" is capable to track up to 50 targets simultaneously within 230 km range. Large targets (ships) are tracked within 400 km range."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev_A-50
Any thoughts?

[bd popeye]

I wonder if A-50s or other AWACS planes can cover carrier ops in the Arabian sea/Indian Ocean. They could be based in Pakistan, Malaysia, Bangladesh & Burma and also fly over Tibet.
"Radar "Vega-M" designed by MNIIP, Moscow, produced by NPO Vega-M. "Vega-M" is capable to track up to 50 targets simultaneously within 230 km range. Large targets (ships) are tracked within 400 km range."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev_A-50
Any thoughts?

That aircraft has one hell of a range. The only problem with basing it outside of the PRC is getting the rights for a military aircraft to base & overfly diffrent countries. Each country has diffrent laws reguarding overflights & basing by military aircraft. But the PRC being "frendly" with most of the nations you mentioned may not have that much difficulty doing so. However if this happens you can expect the US to respond with a watchful eye where as the USAF has a presence in the aera..

[BLUEJACKET]

That aircraft has one hell of a range... But the PRC being "frendly" with most of the nations you mentioned may not have that much difficulty doing so. However if this happens you can expect the US to respond with a watchful eye where as the USAF has a presence in the aera..
That's a given. Iran may also be interested in hosting PLAAF/an AWACS. As in the Cold War, the Soviets stationed their IL-38/20s, the types used by the Indian Naval Aviation now-
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_431.shtml -
in the Middle East & Vietnam to keep an eye on the US naval forces.
"Beijing concluded a deal to buy four A-50 Mainstays, first phase of program for up to eight of the aircraft. Eight would allow for two aircraft on continuous 24-hour patrol." Y-8 could also fit to this mission, since there is already operational Y-8 MARITIME PATROL version.
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/specialaircraft/y8aew.asp
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/specialaircraft/y8mpa.asp
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/aew-prc.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/a-50-specs.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/a-50.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/images/mainstay-DDST8708771.JPG
And there are also some C-130s in PRC possession! Does anyone have more info. on that?

[tphuang]

That's a given. Iran may also be interested in hosting PLAAF/an AWACS. As in the Cold War, the Soviets stationed their IL-38/20s, the types used by the Indian Naval Aviation now-
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_431.shtml -
in the Middle East & Vietnam to keep an eye on the US naval forces.
"Beijing concluded a deal to buy four A-50 Mainstays, first phase of program for up to eight of the aircraft. Eight would allow for two aircraft on continuous 24-hour patrol." Y-8 could also fit to this mission, since there is already operational Y-8 MARITIME PATROL version.
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/specialaircraft/y8aew.asp
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/specialaircraft/y8mpa.asp
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/aew-prc.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/a-50-specs.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/a-50.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/images/mainstay-DDST8708771.JPG
And there are also some C-130s in PRC possession! Does anyone have more info. on that?
bluejacket, you really have to stop posting all of these outdated links and such. China never bought an A-50 AWACS and most likely never will. It converted a A-50 airframe into its own indigenous AWACS, but that's it. But since KJ-2000 does use the same airframe as A-50 AWACS, it probably has similar range and such.

[BLUEJACKET]

bluejacket, you really have to stop posting all of these outdated links and such. China never bought an A-50 AWACS and most likely never will. It converted a A-50 airframe into its own indigenous AWACS, but that's it. But since KJ-2000 does use the same airframe as A-50 AWACS, it probably has similar range and such.

Sometimes old is better than new. the reason I post them is to substantiate my points and provide reference/background info., so noone will think that I'm just imagining things.
As for those A-50 AWACS, does it really matter if they never bought them? What matters is that the idea is being used!

Also, if the Russians still have TU-126 Moss in good condition they may play a role as a stop gap measure, even though it had poor look-down capability, and was not able to track cruise missiles and other low flying objects. .
A more modern radar can always be installed on an older airframe.
http://www.ctrl-c.liu.se/misc/ram/tu-126.html
http://www.geocities.com/lucktam/awacs/moss.htm
During the war with Pakistan in 1971, the Indian Moss provided critical support in helping Indian air forces evade defenses and strike Pakistani airfields,(30) as well as aiding Indian air defenses in repelling Pakistani attacks.(31) According to some accounts, Pakistani air strikes were largely ineffective, and close air support of ground operations "non-existent" due to the edge the Moss gave the Indian forces.
http://www.fas.org/spp/aircraft/part04.htm
Russia's Anonov AN-74 (NATO: Madcap) development of the Coaler transport version appeared headed for navy service after mid-decade. Decline of the Russian Navy's aircraft carrier fleet leaves only a single "Kuznetsov" class CTOL ship in service, thus leaving the unique t-tail installed rotodome conversion in the dustbin of aircraft designs unless a foreign country offers to further RDT&E on the design. Given the state of the Russian electronics industry, the aircraft is unlikely to have suitable over-land detection and track performance and therefore would appeal only to a client interested in a maritime air AEW&C mission.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LANCER/idr00012.htm
http://www.warfare.ru/?lang=&linkid=2307&catid=259

[Jeff Head]

I won't shed a tear if you don't read them. It's up to the moderator to tell me that, sorryUh...BLUEJACKET...Tphuang is a moderator. It says so one his posts right there under his name. Just thought I would make sure you knew that.

[BLUEJACKET]

Uh...BLUEJACKET...Tphuang is a moderator. It says so one his posts right there under his name. Just thought I would make sure you knew that.
I found it after posting, and went back & edited it, but you caught it! Well, at least it's better to post old links than the dead ones!
did you check your inbox for my PM?

[Diving Falcon]

Escripts from the Jang interview with the PAF CAS - Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmad;

Q. Is Pakistan interested in purchasing an aerial refueling system? If true how will PAF utilize this air asset? There is unconfirmed news that Pakistan is considering Ukrainian aerial refueling systems. Is this true?

Ans. Correct! PAF is inducting four Russian origin aircraft equipped with aerial refueling systems from Ukraine. This will enhance defensive and offensive capabilities i.e. PAF’s deep strike capability as well as endurance for long CAP and BARCAP missions. Basically our major aim is to provide a complete aerial refueling system for our JF-17 Thunders which will form our backbone in near future.

Q. Will Pakistan be inducting Chinese KJ-2000 system?

Ans. China is our most sincere friend and in the previous decades, China has excelled in the aircraft development industry and has always offered us frontline equipment with the best package available. Hence we will consider our policies, revise our modernization program and will consider this system to be inducted in our air arsenal along with Erieye System.

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpost.php?p=93089&postcount=17

Note the PAF has confirmed that it will procure the IL-76/78 series for its air-to-air refueling requirement; AND the PAF Air Chief said the PAF is considering to induct the KJ-2000 AWACS system (which is mounted on the IL-76?).

[tphuang]

Escripts from the Jang interview with the PAF CAS - Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmad;



http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpost.php?p=93089&postcount=17

Note the PAF has confirmed that it will procure the IL-76/78 series for its air-to-air refueling requirement; AND the PAF Air Chief said the PAF is considering to induct the KJ-2000 AWACS system (which is mounted on the IL-76?).

not likely, KJ-2000 is not up for export. The Y-8 AEW was pretty developed just for export to PAF. You would notice that in that interview, the ACM made no reference to KJ-2000, but just that something is offered to PAF.

[Diving Falcon]

not likely, KJ-2000 is not up for export. The Y-8 AEW was pretty developed just for export to PAF. You would notice that in that interview, the ACM made no reference to KJ-2000, but just that something is offered to PAF.
True, not to mention that this was a translation from Urdu to English; one can expect deviation. Although - is it possible for the Y-8's AEW system to be integrated on IL-76? PAF is trying to standardize its equipment as much as possible - I doubt it would be willing to induct the IL-76/78 and Y-8 at the same time.

[maglomanic]

True, not to mention that this was a translation from Urdu to English; one can expect deviation. Although - is it possible for the Y-8's AEW system to be integrated on IL-76? PAF is trying to standardize its equipment as much as possible - I doubt it would be willing to induct the IL-76/78 and Y-8 at the same time.

I would be really surprised if PAF goes for KJ-2000. PAF would most probably go for the Y-8 AEW (the one that visited chaklala airbase)like TP said. It makes more sense too if you look at PAF's emphasis on smaller more agile and greater in number platforms than IL based Phalcon like big platforms which make more sense when you have a huge Airspace to cover like China or India.

[tphuang]

it's much cheaper to operate Y-8 than KJ-2000.

Anyhow, here is a photo of KJ-200
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2694/kj200oct1rd3.jpg

[challenge]

it's much cheaper to operate Y-8 than KJ-2000.

Anyhow, here is a photo of KJ-200
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2694/kj200oct1rd3.jpg

Chinese data link are compatible to french Link-W,or link-11.Chinese data link for fighter aircraft is FK-1,but improve version is being develop to replace,do I looking at liscense from Russian data link?
BTW,I read in Chinese magazine,that US ground radar operator using link-16 can down link KH-11 spy satelite photograph.

[swimmerXC]

.....

[tphuang]

latest picture of KJ-200, looks like the same prototype from the last picture
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/3269/kj200oct14ab6.jpg

add in some of the more Y-8 with the "big neck"
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9775/y8battlefieldoct14xh6.jpg
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/3984/y8battlefieldoct144fc0.jpg

[BLUEJACKET]

From Jane