How good are Chinese pilots?

[skyhawk2005]

Do PAF and PLAAF ever do exercises together? J10/J11 vs F16s?

If not, they should.

I'd be interested to know how Chinese pilots compare with USA, Indian, Russian, Pakistan, etc.

[tphuang]

well, probably not very good. Even the people on the Chinese sites have admitted that PLAAF pilots are not as good as PAF pilots and probably not as good as IAF pilots.

[PLABUDDY]

well, probably not very good. Even the people on the Chinese sites have admitted that PLAAF pilots are not as good as PAF pilots and probably not as good as IAF pilots.
Not too good. But i doubt if PLAAF pilots are worse than IAF and PAF pilots.

[Wingman]

It will be good if they let me join! I will make up for the slack :nutkick:

On a more serious note, they do get more training flight hours than average (IIRC), but I forgot how much it was and where I got that from

[adeptitus]

I'd be interested to know how Chinese pilots compare with USA, Indian, Russian, Pakistan, etc.

In terms of average pilot quality, the PLAAF pilots tend to receive fewer hours of training/flying time than USAF counterparts:

http://www.china-defense.com/aviation/plaaf-ops/plaaf-ops_08.html
Based upon an analysis of Chinese literature and interviews in China, it is evident that PLAAF pilots do not fly as many hours as their Western counterparts. According to interviews with PLAAF and foreign air force officials, the PLAAF's flying hours have not changed appreciably over the past fifteen years, but they have changed their training techniques. Since the end of the 1970s, bomber pilots have consistently flown an average of 80 hours per year; fighter pilots 100 to 110 hours; and A-5 ground attack pilots up to 150 hours. (40) This compares to about 215 hours per year for US Air Force bomber, fighter, and attack crews. USAF pilots also conduct numerous hours training on advanced simulators.

However other sources claim that elite PLAAF combat pilots receive 170-200 hours of fliying time annually, which is pretty close to USAF average of 215.

[bd popeye]

Adeptitus thanks for posting that information about the flight hours that PLAAF flight crews recieve. That's some mighty low numbers. I wonder if fuel is the problem? Or maintaince of the aircraft? Who knows for sure??:confused: But if the PLAAF wants to be a top notch air force they need to increase training and flight hours fo it's air crews.

Perhaps the PLAAF aircrews are recieving plenty of training in flight simulators. Anyone know?

[MIGleader]

In terms of average pilot quality, the PLAAF pilots tend to receive fewer hours of training/flying time than USAF counterparts:

http://www.china-defense.com/aviation/plaaf-ops/plaaf-ops_08.html
Based upon an analysis of Chinese literature and interviews in China, it is evident that PLAAF pilots do not fly as many hours as their Western counterparts. According to interviews with PLAAF and foreign air force officials, the PLAAF's flying hours have not changed appreciably over the past fifteen years, but they have changed their training techniques. Since the end of the 1970s, bomber pilots have consistently flown an average of 80 hours per year; fighter pilots 100 to 110 hours; and A-5 ground attack pilots up to 150 hours. (40) This compares to about 215 hours per year for US Air Force bomber, fighter, and attack crews. USAF pilots also conduct numerous hours training on advanced simulators.

However other sources claim that elite PLAAF combat pilots receive 170-200 hours of fliying time annually, which is pretty close to USAF average of 215.

i though u.s pilots recieved around 189 hours, and german pilots 150 hours.

id have to say, plaaf pilots are probably not among the best trained. perhaps with the introduction of som many new systems so quickl;y, the pilots havnt had time to adapt to all of them. but compared east asian Af's, the plaaf should still rank pretty high.

i dont know how far the plaa'fs gotten on simulater tech. they have 2 su-27 sims, a couple desktop computer mkk2 sims, and some specualted j-10 sims. they also have some numbers of j-8 sims that can be used to practice air ro air refueling.

[tphuang]

Adeptitus thanks for posting that information about the flight hours that PLAAF flight crews recieve. That's some mighty low numbers. I wonder if fuel is the problem? Or maintaince of the aircraft? Who knows for sure??:confused: But if the PLAAF wants to be a top notch air force they need to increase training and flight hours fo it's air crews.

Perhaps the PLAAF aircrews are recieving plenty of training in flight simulators. Anyone know?
too many pilots, not enough planes? Also, it could be the result of a lack of trainers. J-10A has been up in the air for a while now, but J-10B has not even entered production stage yet. Until JL-15 becomes operational (possbily JL-9), the 4th generation training in plaaf will be lacking big time.

[skyhawk2005]

I wonder why PAF and PLAAF pilots don't have mock combats?

Since the two share similar planes J7s, it would make sense for both countries to test their pilots against each other.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

a couple desktop computer mkk2 sims

Are you kidding me??? I have a couple desktop computer sims...

I am sure by sims they mean the large cockpit type sims that emulate real air combat, not the software that I can get at Costco for $20...

Then again, the US army tried to train their troops w/ a computer game...

[MIGleader]

I wonder why PAF and PLAAF pilots don't have mock combats?

Since the two share similar planes J7s, it would make sense for both countries to test their pilots against each other.

perhaps its because they dont want countries such as india believing the joint combats are targeted at a third nation. besides, pakistans f-16s wernt designed to be "excercise" compatable with su-27s. you would need special captive traing missles.

[jatt]

perhaps its because they dont want countries such as india believing the joint combats are targeted at a third nation. besides, pakistans f-16s wernt designed to be "excercise" compatable with su-27s. you would need special captive traing missles.
I think Pakistan will not now! Otherwise the F-16 is going back in the package.

[crobato]

Actually KANWA claimed that training for certain PLAAF regiments, especially among the Su-27/30 groups have gone through the roof in recent years, perhaps even in the 200-300 hour range. The increase has been stressful for many pilots, opening the risk of accidents if it has not caused a few already. To ease the pressure, pilots are not mandated to perform risky maneuvers if they feel they are not up to it.

I don't know how many of those hours are actually spent on an Su-27, J-11 or Su-30. Given the operability conditions, I don't believe all those hours are spent on the Flankers. They would divide the time and raise their flight hours by flying on J-7s for practice.

[Wingman]

Actually KANWA claimed that training for certain PLAAF regiments, especially among the Su-27/30 groups have gone through the roof in recent years, perhaps even in the 200-300 hour range. The increase has been stressful for many pilots, opening the risk of accidents if it has not caused a few already. To ease the pressure, pilots are not mandated to perform risky maneuvers if they feel they are not up to it.
Yes I believe that was the alleged cause of the crash of an Su-30MKK about a year or two ago.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/plaaf-intro.htm
There's a section about training in this global security article and they mentioned the MKK crash too

[coolieno99]

well, probably not very good. Even the people on the Chinese sites have admitted that PLAAF pilots are not as good as PAF pilots and probably not as good as IAF pilots.

1. Chinese pilots are at least capable enough to fly in outer space (ShenZhou 5 and 6).

2. Modern jet fighters required less skill pilots to make them effective. It doesn't take much skill to launched long range BVR missiles, or even short range AA missiles. Aerial dogfights were rare occurences in Vietnam war , 30 years ago. It will be more rare in the future.

3. China just entered the Olympics sporting events in 1984. China won many Gold medals in many events since then. One event China does well is shooting, despite the fact the U.S. has a great deal more shooters and firearms floating around in the country ...:coffee:

[MIGleader]

double post?

flying in outerspace is a great achievementy, but unless your flying a mig-31, its going to do you little good. as for skill, bvr, lock on, hms,...have really made aircombat more light a moving video game. just push a button and the enmy is dead.

iaf pilots are extremely well trained however, and probably only the most elite plaaf units are on par with them. thats the way it is.

[jatt]

Don't mean to jack the topic. But it seems to me that the best way to create new tactics and increase the quality of training requires a lot of training and joint exercises. After all my friend in the USAF said that F-15's simulating MiGs and Sukios doens't really help when the airframes are completely different. Training perpares one for effieciency so there are less unexpected incidents. Nations have sought training together to share knowledge ie NATO. India is jumping in the boat to be home to advanced training for pilots and sea men. It already has CI training facilities for infantries around the world and some others. China only recently had an exercise with Russia, and what an exercise all though mistakes were made in filled. Does the PLA plan more exercises and with whome? Also seems that Russia isn't interested in training with the PLA since China had to pay for the entire large scale exercise! I remember PLA gettting trained by Pak in CT. Why have they not gone back for more training for the rest? Exercises with NK isn't even worth mentioning since NK will be the only one to learn. It would help PLA greatly to learn modern warfare techniques expecially from Pakistan who has fought a lot of wars, fast paced. I don't think the PLA has ever been in a war that required modern warfare or even skirmishes.:confused:

[Baibar of Jalat]

Suprising and nice to hear Paf is so good considering the nations small defence budget,

dont worry it links in with my china point.

With their larger defence budget and chinese airforce willingness to learn they can rapidly gain parity skill wise its best to learn your defencies in peace time and fix them then in war.

Question a few years back i remember a documentary on the vietnam war briefly saying two US jets strayed into or close to chinese airspace and were destroyed. Was the plaaf aircraft or SAMs which shot down these aircraft. Is there any sources to validate my claim.

[crobato]

It was PLAAF aircraft who shot them down. There was also a number of unmanned aircraft that was also shot down. The most celebrated shooting was that of a J-6 that managed to take down an RF-104 (reconnaissance Starfighter). The American pilot survived, taken prisoner and was released, and much later in the eighties, visited China as part of a goodwill visit.

There was a Chinese Korean war ace by the name of Han Decai who shot down four to five American fighters including an ace with 16 kills.

[ahho]

I am just wondering would plaaf holding exercise with paf would benefit. All i could think of is tactics and air formation that would benefit us. The think that is really lacking is bvr engagement since paf dun have any bvr missile, and this is a critical part for modern engagement.

[sumdud]

PAF pilots aren't bad.
Don't they say that PAF pilots like to lure IAF fighters into valleys and play there?
They've been known to be good pilots.
And war experiences doesn't say nothing.
And Pakistani pilots aren't hired by other airforces for nothing.

I don't know about IAF. I am not counting the old Fishbeds here since they are said to be overfatigued anyway.
But they had crashed Mirages in Malaysia, while China lost a Flanker recently.
Maybe they are in the same position?

[akinkhoo]

an article say when russian pilot exercise with the chinese, the chinese pilot doesn't know how to take advantage of their modern equipment and suck at BVR. i don't know how credible this claim is...

but i do believe their doctine and operations might be lagging behind their hardware. if they get better official; good colonels to help develop and update the pilot program.

[ahho]

BVR is still pretty new, the article probably exagerated it, but probably there would be some little problem with the pilots.

Do you think the simulator (normal pc with joystick(with the speed control) and pedal) that the chinese use would help improve their fighting cpability?? I know it looks like a game but does it help?

[MIGleader]

you mean the mkk2 simulater? i dont really like it. if such a sim were available for basic fighter training for regualr units, it would be acceptable. but the mkk2 pilots are the elite, seeign how the 24 mkk2s are THE most advanced plaaf aircraft. why should they be using pc sims?

[ahho]

you mean the mkk2 simulater? i dont really like it. if such a sim were available for basic fighter training for regualr units, it would be acceptable. but the mkk2 pilots are the elite, seeign how the 24 mkk2s are THE most advanced plaaf aircraft. why should they be using pc sims?

is it only for the mkk2??? i thought if you have one of those, is just a matter of loading the planes you want it and change the joystick accordingly. Well is better than not doing anything IMO

[Su-27 Pilot]

[QUOTE=skyhawk2005] J10/J11 vs F16s?

QUOTE]

Correction ! J10s vs F16s and J-11/Su27 vs F15s. Thank You.:china:

[skyhawk2005]

[QUOTE=skyhawk2005] J10/J11 vs F16s?

QUOTE]

Correction ! J10s vs F16s and J-11/Su27 vs F15s. Thank You.:china:

No, it's J10/J11 vs Pakistani F16s. Pakistan doesn't have F15s.

[utelore]

I have talked to a airforce payload specialist in japan who has talked in great detail with U.S pilots operating near china. From what he says is that PRC pilots while operating during the day near land seem to be "ok". HOWEVER he claims that once at night and on open sea the PRC pilots become very "linear" and "nervous". He has also talked to EW and "spookAC" They kind of "off the record" say the same thing that PRC pilots "HATE" flying at night and dont like flying more than 100 miles off of land. He also claims that PRC pilots dislike and dont trust their own airdefence network. I guess it is pretty good but at the same time very paranoid and the return flight from open sea makes them real real nervous as they must stay in some sort enter exit air corridor.

please under stand this is hey this guy told me this type of stuff but is kind of interesting to hear.

[Sea Dog]

I have talked to a airforce payload specialist in japan who has talked in great detail with U.S pilots operating near china. From what he says is that PRC pilots while operating during the day near land seem to be "ok". HOWEVER he claims that once at night and on open sea the PRC pilots become very "linear" and "nervous". He has also talked to EW and "spookAC" They kind of "off the record" say the same thing that PRC pilots "HATE" flying at night and dont like flying more than 100 miles off of land. He also claims that PRC pilots dislike and dont trust their own airdefence network. I guess it is pretty good but at the same time very paranoid and the return flight from open sea makes them real real nervous as they must stay in some sort enter exit air corridor.

please under stand this is hey this guy told me this type of stuff but is kind of interesting to hear.

Well, the JH-7, being designed as an all-weather/day-night fighter-bomber, may just change this paradigm in Chinese air ops.

[tphuang]

http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/7885/20051229173144619881la.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The latest kanwa article stated again the flight time between the Taiwanese elite pilots and plaaf elite pilots. According to this, Taiwanese pilots fly up to 15 hours a week! Whereas su-30mkk pilots flight time reaches the RCAF standard

[MIGleader]

15 hours a week? i really dont believe that. the pilots would have extremly stressed facial rinkles, and their ears would be bleeding!!!

15 hours a week is 750 hours a year!!! thats more than 3 times the u.s training time!!!

[Ender Wiggin]

I play BF2 (Battlefield 2) and play as a pilot whenever i can get my hand on a jet. I believe that een a desktop sim can teach VERY basic stuff, like tactics, at what range is most effective and what risky maneuvers are worth taking.

But I will say that there are many drawbacks, after all I shot down a F-35B with a J-10, basically a F-16 shooting down a F-35, is that even possible? I think they designed the game for playablility not realism. I don't care if a newb in a F-35 shoots me down 100 times in a row for as long as I learn how in actuallity to shoot him down at least once.

[adeptitus]

15 hours a week? i really dont believe that. the pilots would have extremly stressed facial rinkles, and their ears would be bleeding!!!
15 hours a week is 750 hours a year!!! thats more than 3 times the u.s training time!!!

The article also said ROCAF's pilot to aircraft ratio was 1.5 pilots : 1 plane, so on per pilot basis, the number of flight hours annually will be higher than other AF with higher pilot : aircraft ratio.

However I highly doubt those pilots fly 750 hours/year in the F-16. According to the F-16 pilot database, ROCAF only has 2 pilots with 1,000 hour and 2,000 hour of flight in the F-16:
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_pilots_airforce-ROCAF.html

Let's look at Lt. Col Tseng:
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_pilots_num2078.html
First ROCAF pilot to log 1000 hours in the F-16. Deputy squadron commander for 4th FG of the 455th Wing. Received F-16 transition training in 1996 as one of the first pilots of the ROCAF. He has flown almost 3000 hours in military aircraft like the T-33, T-34, T-38, F-5, IDF and F-16.

I think it's obvious that the pilot's training is not done entirely on F-16's.

===================

Now let's look at Lt Col Michael J Brill, with over 5,200 hours on the F-16:
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_pilots_num139.html
Brill is continuing a tradition he began in 1993 when he was the first U.S. pilot to surpass 3,000 hours in the "Viper." Achieving 4,000 hours in the same fighter aircraft is a rare achievement, and Brill, a reservist for almost half of his time flying the F-16, has averaged 225 hours per year in his 17+ years flying the aircraft.

From above example, we can see that even with someone who has logged 5,200+ hours on the F-16, didn't get to fly 750 hours/year on the same plane. =P