Plaaf fighter cocpits

[MIGleader]

j-7
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/J-7E_&_F-7MG_(left),_F-7PG_(middle),_J-7G_(right).jpg
left j-7e, center j-7mg, right j-7pg

j-8
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/fighter/J-8D_cockpit1.jpg

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/cockpits/j8/j8_panel_01.jpg
another good pic of j-8

[MIGleader]

j-10
http://content.miw.com.sg/LifeStyle/Military/Images/20040319_combataircraft05.jpg
pre production cocpit

http://img53.exs.cx/img53/1519/j10cockpit2aw.gif
demonstrater

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/J-10_Cockpit.jpg
very nice...

[MIGleader]

j-11/su27
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/su27/images/su27_7.jpg

http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-27/su-27sm_cp1.jpg

su-30 mkk
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/flankers_pages/su-30mkk_files/su-30mkk_23.jpg
front cockpit

http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/attack/Su-30MKK_cockpit.jpg
left Mki
right mkk
rear cockpit

[MIGleader]

http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/image/foto/15-1-2004-9-8-fc1_(8)_cockpit.jpg
fc-1

http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/attack/JH-7A_rear1.jpg
jh-7a

http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/trainer/L-15_cockpit.jpg
l-15

http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/trainer/FTC-2000cockpit.jpg
jl-9

as we can see, chinas been making nice progress desinging advanced avionic tech, especially on the j-10.

[tphuang]

nice pictures, Migleader.

I'm surprised by JH-7A. It's cockpit is really nice.

J-10's cockpit definitely looks sweet.

I seriously want to puke everytime I see su-27's cockpit.

[jatt]

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/J-10_Cockpit.jpg
Isn't that the LAVI cockpit.

[MIGleader]

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/aigledefer/Images/Avions/LAVI/lavi_cockpit.jpg
the lavi cocpit

yes jatt, it is the lavi cocpit. but seeing the relation of the j-10s design to the lavis, i wouldnt be surprised if the avionics suite and fbw were designed very similarly, to handle the aircraft just as well.


http://www.ginklai.net/images/galerija/1040_tu16_kokpitas.jpg
h-6/tu-16 cockpit...still pretty junky

[MIGleader]

more fc-1
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/fighter/cockpit5.jpg

j-11a cocpit, with 2 mfds...
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/fighter/J-11A.jpg
j-10's cockpit's diagram
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/fighter/J-10cockpit.jpg
no need to hyper link the pic...

[MIGleader]

il-76
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/cockpits/il76/il76_panel_01.jpg

y-8
http://www.imcat.com/images/cockpit_views/B_AN12_1540.jpg

http://legion.wplus.net/guide/air/i/su27-1.
su-27 ub...ugly

[Mao23]

don't u think the su-27 looks a bit out of date. the stuff looks preety dam old. it looks bad compared to the others.

[MIGleader]

don't u think the su-27 looks a bit out of date. the stuff looks preety dam old. it looks bad compared to the others.

well, its not actually as bad as it looks. the copits just a little dirtier and rustier than the other cocpits, making ity appear more obsolete. but ONE MFD!!!??? and this was a 80s design. i heard at least some j-11 have been uped to A standard, with better avionics such as an additional mfd.

ive pretty much lost faith in the russian aerospace industry to produce quality planes for china. if china wants to move ahead, it must make its own developments on its existing platforms. i cant wait to see the j-11b cockpit.

[adeptitus]

Here's a good site with lots of Cockpit instrument panel photos:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/cockpits/

The Russians made so many variants of Su-27 (and MiG-29), it's very difficult to keep track. The photos that we see posted to the web are often old export models or prototypes and does not necessarily reflect service units.

If you compare the cockpit of a Su-27S to the Su-27SM, it's a pretty big upgrade:
http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-27/su-27.htm

Russian aircraft cockpits are not known to be pretty, automated, or ergonomic. Traditionally a Russian pilot has to flip or press far more number of switches to lock and fire a missile, than US pilot. However recently Russians have started incorporating French technology and adopting some Western designs, so things are changing.

[Wingman]

Though the Su-27s have outdated cockpits, I'm very sure that the J-11s have more advanced cockpits

This is the only pic I could find.
http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/2005-04-30/10088.htm

[MIGleader]

i guess thats a j-11A cockpit. it looks pretty decent too, althgough it still has only one mfd. but it looks pretty nice. i think chinese avionic companies like louyang are looking into japanese tech obtained from the civilian market to incorperate into more advanced mfds.

[Wingman]

i guess thats a j-11A cockpit. it looks pretty decent too, althgough it still has only one mfd. but it looks pretty nice. i think chinese avionic companies like louyang are looking into japanese tech obtained from the civilian market to incorperate into more advanced mfds.
Are you referring to the J-11 cockpit I posted? Doesn't it have two MFDs?

[crobato]

The standard Su-27 cockpit only has one MFD. Not really an MFD but a CRT for radar display. The J-11A cockpit replaces the CRT with an LCD display [note: it's not really an MFD because it doesn't have buttons around the sides], then adds an MFD on top of that.

If you look through pictures of the windshield canopies of J-11s and even some Su-27UBKs, you will notice the protruding MFD often appears in many pictures, but is absent in generic Su-27s and even in Su-30s.

I believe this MFD is used to display additional functions in the radar that was also added through a module and not present in the original N001 radar system. I believe it has something to do with Track While Scan and two target engagement mode using R-77s.

[tphuang]

The standard Su-27 cockpit only has one MFD. Not really an MFD but a CRT for radar display. The J-11A cockpit replaces the CRT with an LCD display [note: it's not really an MFD because it doesn't have buttons around the sides], then adds an MFD on top of that.

If you look through pictures of the windshield canopies of J-11s and even some Su-27UBKs, you will notice the protruding MFD often appears in many pictures, but is absent in generic Su-27s and even in Su-30s.

I believe this MFD is used to display additional functions in the radar that was also added through a module and not present in the original N001 radar system. I believe it has something to do with Track While Scan and two target engagement mode using R-77s.
Do you know what kind of radar they put on J-11A or the ubk? I know plaaf wasn't pleased at all with the performance of flanker avionics in general, but what kind of upgrade did they do before J-11B?

[MIGleader]

Do you know what kind of radar they put on J-11A or the ubk? I know plaaf wasn't pleased at all with the performance of flanker avionics in general, but what kind of upgrade did they do before J-11B?

i dont know much about the radar, but thay modified some j-11s to fire the r-77 and kh-31. thats why they modified the radar and avionics. the quality of the plaens were also an improvement over early j-11s.

[tphuang]

I have no doubt in my mind that PLA is trying to upgrade all the early flankers to be able to fire PL-12 and all the domestic AAMs eventually. However, the question that I have is how far plaaf has actually upgraded the flankers. The early non-BVR flankers really don't have that much value anymore. Any insights, Crobato?

[crobato]

The upgrades are basically additional modules and computers that are tacked on to the existing radar and its computer bus. Essentially they are the same components used on the MKK to fire the R-77 and probably the Kh-31P/A. This upgrade is not the complete SKM upgrade however, which also includes the TV and laser targeting ground attack system for the MKK. Thus the J-11As could fire the R-77, but not do precision ground attacks like the MKK does.

Janes reported (twice) that at least 100 of these upgrade kits were ordered and delivered since 2001, so it's very likely every J-11 out there has been upgraded and that some of the Russian made Su-27s may have been done so.

Furthermore, KANWA in the year 2000 reported that the Su-27UBKs being received at that time, which was the third and last batch that originally went to the 33rd Division, had upgrades to fire the R-77 missile. This means these planes had the upgrades built in the factory.

[tphuang]

do they have the multi-targetting capability of su-30mkk? I mean are the radars upgraded at all, because the original one really were terrible.

[MIGleader]

i thought both the su-27 radar and the mkk radar could track 10 targets...?

so is the plaaf planning to instal the blue sky flir pod to the j-11b to allow it the drop precision guided bombs?

[crobato]

The Su-27 has a track mode but it does not appear to be a track while scan mode. Which means that while the radar is tracking those 10 targets, you won't be seeing anything else as the radar isn't doing anything else at the same time like scanning the general environment. The MKK has a track while scan mode, which means if you are tracking those 10 targets, you are still scanning simultaneously and displaying other targets as the scan updates their positions regularly. However, only those that are tracked are showing heading and velocity information at the same time.

The Russians also have something called a Velocity Search mode. I'm not sure but I heard something similar is also recently implemented on the APG-68 radar on the F-16 on the latest versions.

What a VS mode does is track a target and displays only its velocity information. This enables the radar to increase the number of targets being tracked and increase the tracking ranges, because the overhead for tracking is reduced.

Have you heard about the Zhuk-ME or MS radars claiming they can track 20 targets? Yet their information also says their Track-While-Scan is only 10 targets? Confused? That's because those 20 targets are being tracked with VS, while TWS only does 10.

As if all these matters a lot. The most commonly used modes tend to be RWS or Range While Search, and STT or Single Target Tracking mode. You use multiple targeting TWS if you are engaging targets simultaneously with ARH missiles but these things sound only cool in paper. STT is the old trusted standby all pilots use because of its range, aperture (it gives better elevation and azimuth in the radar compared to TWS), speed of locking, and resistance to ECM. You can use STT to fire both ARH and SARH missiles.

As for the N001 being terrible, everyone agrees it is a dinosaur. And yet I would not underestimate what even the original could do. The Su-30Ks used the Indian Air Force also use the N001E (export N001) like those of the PLAAF Su-27SKs, and they made a great showing in the COPE exercises.

[MIGleader]

thank you crobato. i think the N001E actually works very well wneh there are mountains and onther objects for its waves to reflect off of. in those case, the su-30 can fully utilize its radar and manuverbility. so, what kind of advanced radar does china have planned for future j-10s and j-11bs? is it 1473?

[crobato]

Actually radar works worst when there is mountains and other ground features to reflect radar off. It's called ground clatter. Ground clatter is one of the main problems in developing look down modes for radar.

KLJ-3 might be a radar specifically designed to fit the J-10. As such, it probably won't fit on a J-11. Different designations are assigned for the radars specifically designed to fit each and every aircraft.

The least common denominator for the radar on the J-10 should at least be a mechanical slotted planar array. The current generation of mechanically scanning radars used around the world belongs to this design. It gives better aperture (azimuth and elevation degrees) and less sidelob interference than Cassegrain and Twist Cassegrain designs like those used by the Russians such as on the N010 and N001 radars on the MiG-29 and Su-27 respectively. Actually slotted planars give better aperture than even electronically scanning designs whose signal strength tends to weaken when they scan along the side, and generally face a lot of heat problems. Also slotted planars comes off with the best price performance ratio.

You can already see that the radars used on the J-8II, JH-7A and even the J-7G uses a slotted planar. The Su-27SK, upgraded J-11As and Su-30MKK still uses a Twist Cassegrain buoyed up with more modern electronics, but even with better electronics, you can't get around your mechanical limitations. If you see the upgraded Su-27SKM, it still has the Twist Cassegrain, which is shaped kind of like a large tube. No wonder China didn't accept the Su-27SKM and stopped the Su-30MK2. The MK3 is supposed to have the Zhuk MSE which uses a slotted planar.

As far as we know, the Russian Zhemchug proposed for the J-10 is a slotted planar and so is the Israeli ELTA M 2032. The Lavi's ELTA M 2035 is also a slotted planar.

In my opinion, the J-11B will also be a slotted planar, either by NRIET (No. 14) or by LETRI (No. 607), though I view LETRI to be more of a runnerup.

However, one can't rule out a passive phase array, given China's mastery of this technology. My opinion is that the radar on the J-10 and J-11B is at least a slotted planar made by NRIET, which I think is the leading candidate to win the radar contract for the J-11B, but a passive phase array is within the realm of possibility.

I think with a slotted planar, the J-11B should have a performance comparable to the Su-30MK3 and its Zhuk MSE, and I think that is one of the reasons why the MK3 project---and all MKK related projects---was placed into hiatus. To do better than the J-11B, Russia needs to offer a plane with a passive phase array like the Su-35. But for how long again, till China masters putting phase arrays on fighter aircraft which is becoming a near term possibility.

My idea of proposed Su-35 for China would include N001VEP enhanced with Pero Phase Array, aka the radar code name is "Panda".

[tphuang]

Interesting, I thought the ones on mkk were slotted array at least. To think, they were still using cassegrain radar. sad...

Now that you mentionned the difference between track and track while scan, it really makes me wonder whether the track numbers given for J-10 are track or track while scan. Anyhow, I did hear that the most recent bunch of J-10 is using PESA radar. J-11B is likely getting PESA too. We will see.

[crobato]

I doubt that the J-10 will have such as antiquated mode as tracking without scanning. Track while scan, although innovative around the late eighties to early nineties, is a pretty routine today. The question is, whether the J-10 has a VS (Velocity Search mode) which can be used to track even more targets at a greater range and aperture, but presents only velocity information. I think its still up to debate if such a mode has some tactical value.

The most important mode for your situational awareness is none of these however, it is the good old Range While Search, which offers the greatest range and field of aperture than any of the tracking modes.

Twist Cassegrain is a bit different from a Cassegrain which uses a parabolic antenna. Parabolics are great for range but got poor sidelob performance. That means they're not good at scanning things that are not front center of the antenna. Unlike a Cassegrain, a Twist Cassegrain uses a flat plane reflecting dish rather than a curved bowl shaped dish. You can look it up to at Google to make a long story short about the advantages and disadvantages of Twist Cassegrains. It does offer wider and less aperture blocking than mere cassegrain designs,. and having a flat plane receiving disk, it is suitable for monopulse and pulse doppler radars. Of course I think it's not as good as a slotted array, but it is less complicated compared the kinds of mechanisms like servos needed to run a slotted array. It is for these reasons the Russians went for twist cassegrains while the West went to slotted arrays.

but as you can see, after the Cold War ended, even the Russians through the Phazotron NIIR company started evolving their own slotted planar designs that became the Zhuk series of radars. Another radar company, Tikhonov NIIP, bypassed the slotted planar stage and went straight to passive phase array. The latter company is responsible for the N001 and the BARS radar, as well as the Pero phase array option for the N001VEP.

To explain the latter, this is a proposed phase array upgrade to the MKK's radar system. Rather than replacing the entire radar set, the twist cassegrain is replaced by a phase array, along with some additional circuitry for support. The resulting upgrade is much cheaper than changing an entire radar, reduces the costly testing process, takes less time to implement, and yet produces a radar comparable to performance as BARS, with comparable multitargeting and only slightly less less range.