Reason for China building WMDs

[renmin]

China builds long ranged nuclear wepons like the Dong feng 5, JL-2 or DongFeng 31. there has been an increase in these ever since China built their own atomic bomb. I would like to know the reason for doing this. my oppinion is, China wants to scare other countries who want to pick on them, i would like to learn some other opinins.

[EternalVigil]

Hopefully for deterrence like the US and Russia and other nuclear powers.:coffee:

[MIGleader]

in the 70s, the goal of china's icbms were to be able to hit moscow, cause the realtions between em wernt so good. that was the fueling source for all of chinas nukes. moscow had 10000+ that could hit china at anytime. so naturally, china needed its own.

the u.s was never really seen as a nuclear target. the countries were still friends in the 80s. and china never, and still doesnt, have nukes that can hit washington.

[renmin]

in the 70s, the goal of china's icbms were to be able to hit moscow, cause the realtions between em wernt so good. that was the fueling source for all of chinas nukes. moscow had 10000+ that could hit china at anytime. so naturally, china needed its own.

the u.s was never really seen as a nuclear target. the countries were still friends in the 80s. and china never, and still doesnt, have nukes that can hit washington. if the JL-2 is diveloped along with the type 94, it could give China nuclear striking capability anywhere in the US

[bd popeye]

if the JL-2 is diveloped along with the type 94, it could give China nuclear striking capability anywhere in the US

Really? Just how will the PLAN keep the USN from tracking the Type 94? And how many is the PLAN going to build? And how would the PLAN with it's limited logistical capablities suppourt a fleet( maybe 6) of Type 94 world wide? Just curious. Thank you!

China builds long ranged nuclear wepons like the Dong feng 5, JL-2 or DongFeng 31. there has been an increase in these ever since China built their own atomic bomb. I would like to know the reason for doing this. my oppinion is, China wants to scare other countries who want to pick on them, i would like to learn some other opinins.

Are there any reliable sources that we can rely on to give an acurate account of how many of these missiles the PRC posesses?

The reason I ask is because I have read everything from 20 to 100. So just how many does the PRC have? Thank you.

[renmin]

Really? Just how will the PLAN keep the USN from tracking the Type 94? And how many is the PLAN going to build? And how would the PLAN with it's limited logistical capablities suppourt a fleet( maybe 6) of Type 94 world wide? Just curious. Thank you!Sorry, i said could not would! besides china could fire the JL-2 from a certain distance. chinese ICBMs might be more difficult to shoot down in the future since a new system is being developed that can change the the direction of ICBMs in flight, since wepons used to shoot down missles today only fly to where the prediction of the location of the ICBM and when close have a guiding system to destroy the weapon, the new system will prevent the ICBM from geting shot down for the destination can be changed, it requires some sort of satilite that can change the target of the warhead.

[EternalVigil]

You are talking about the russian supposed new icbm that supposed to defeat ABM.

[renmin]

Really? Just how will the PLAN keep the USN from tracking the Type 94? And how many is the PLAN going to build? And how would the PLAN with it's limited logistical capablities suppourt a fleet( maybe 6) of Type 94 world wide? Just curious. Thank you!



Are there any reliable sources that we can rely on to give an acurate account of how many of these missiles the PRC posesses?

The reason I ask is because I have read everything from 20 to 100. So just how many does the PRC have? Thank you.No one can actually know how many nuclear wepons China posesse, the PRC keeps that in high secrecy, what i do know is that China has many variations of nuclear weapons exp:DF-5,DF-11,DF-15,Df-31-DF-21 etc. and the JL-2 is still in development.

You are talking about the russian supposed new icbm that supposed to defeat ABM.Not really, this system has just been developed BY CHINA, and it is only a posibility it will be used on China's nukes, sorry, i never heard about ABM

[tphuang]

JL-2 is based on DF-31. The latest Chinese ICBM is DF-41. JL-2 can't hit Washington from the Chinese coast, but it can hit the west coast.

[swimmerXC]

EternalVigil, please do not post anymore oneliners... you already have 2... :nono:

[chakos]

What happened to the DF-41 anyway, i was reading quite a bit about it not too long ago and now it seems that all referances of it have just dissapeared.

That was Chinas first true MODERN ICBM in the proper sense. It seemed on par with the peacemaker or the SS-27. I think it would still be around simply because the Chinese are making no mention of whatsoever. Seems they want to keep it as an ace up their sleeve...

If anyone has any info let me know,

Thanks

[chinawhite]

@ bd popeye

**-Really? Just how will the PLAN keep the USN from tracking the Type 94? And how many is the PLAN going to build? And how would the PLAN with it's limited logistical capablities suppourt a fleet( maybe 6) of Type 94 world wide? Just curious. Thank you!-**

Very easy.

The soviets created submainre basins on the kola peninsula. places where there was a heavy concentration of soviet planes, submainres, ships etc.

China has the Bohai sea
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/9148/bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb0do.jpg

I doubt a US submainre could sneak into the bohai sea with its shallower water and large concentration of marine traffic and future PLA ASW detection capabilities

Or if you look south. hainan island
http://www.taiwandc.org/twcom/85-sprat.jpg

If you see the contrast between the lighter blue and the darker blue. Chinese submainres can easily enter deeper water without having to travel so much


This is all based on my assumtions about future PLAN ASW detection capabilities. Startgin from this point of having nothing(very little) to having a western force standard in 10-20years

Regards,

Chinawhite

[SampanViking]

Quote
the u.s was never really seen as a nuclear target. the countries were still friends in the 80s. and china never, and still doesnt, have nukes that can hit washington.

Call me charmingly naive if you must, but I find it hard to believe that any nation with a manned space programme and the ability to put multiple payloads into Orbit, is unable to target any part of the globe with WMD, if it so wished, or lacks the hardware with which to do it.

[rice]

the u.s was never really seen as a nuclear target. the countries were still friends in the 80s. and china never, and still doesnt, have nukes that can hit washington.

are you sure? because according to numerous sources including the Center for Nonproliferation Studies and Sinodefence, DF-5 (CSS-4), developed in the 1970s, has a 12,000km range

[renmin]

What happened to the DF-41 anyway, i was reading quite a bit about it not too long ago and now it seems that all referances of it have just dissapeared.

That was Chinas first true MODERN ICBM in the proper sense. It seemed on par with the peacemaker or the SS-27. I think it would still be around simply because the Chinese are making no mention of whatsoever. Seems they want to keep it as an ace up their sleeve...

If anyone has any info let me know,

Thanksit is possible the DF-41 has been canceled or even more likely, put under complete secrecy, I know very little info on the DF-41 but like chakos said this might become China's best and true ICBM it has a range from 12000km to 14000km a wepon that aproches the distance of the US Minuteman III.

are you sure? because according to numerous sources including the Center for Nonproliferation Studies and Sinodefence, DF-5 (CSS-4), developed in the 1970s, has a 12,000km rangethe DF-5 has a range of 12000km while the DF-5A has a range of 13000km

[adeptitus]

Really? Just how will the PLAN keep the USN from tracking the Type 94? And how many is the PLAN going to build? And how would the PLAN with it's limited logistical capablities suppourt a fleet( maybe 6) of Type 94 world wide? Just curious. Thank you!


Currently there's only 1 Type 094 that we're aware of. If we assume PLAN would follow EU SSBN fleet model, then we'd expect the PLAN to field at least 4x SSBN's. Personally I think they should build 4-8 for effective secondary strike capability and deterrance.

SSBN's do not need to be deployed world-wide to offer effective deterrance value, since SLBM's have very long range. Assuming if the JL-2 has range of 8,000km, a 094 SSBN can hit the US mainland with its SLBM's from the coastal areas of PRC. However the true range of ICBM's and SLBM's are likely to be classified, and published ranges are best estimates.

With advances in space technology, I think it'd make fractional orbit bombardment system work. The SLBM (or ICBM) can push a warhead vehicle into low-earth orbit, approach the target from ANY direction, then drop in via deorbit reentry. Unlimited range within Earth's sphere.

[MIGleader]

are you sure? because according to numerous sources including the Center for Nonproliferation Studies and Sinodefence, DF-5 (CSS-4), developed in the 1970s, has a 12,000km range

well, traveling a polar route, 12000km would just be a bit short to reach washington, but it can cover at least 3/4 of the u.s, the weatern states and central states.china never saw washington as a target untill recently.

[chakos]

I would agree that the DF-41 program has been put under complete secrecy. You find that with Chinese weapons that do not make it into service there is still much talk about them, pics available etc.

With the DF-41 it seems to have just dissapeared off the face of the Earth. It would seem to me that the DF-31 is merelly a shorter ranged road mobile second strike ICBM whereas the DF-41 would be the big daddy. The true intercontinental Mirved (300kt+ 4+ warhead) missile.

I think the Chinese have gotten it right and as such have gone quiet about it. It would not suprise me one bit if this is the missile that they actually produce in large numbers.

It is easy to produce a mobile ICBM like the DF-31 in large numbers and keep the numbers secret even though the system remains public but with a fixed ICBM the second it is confirmed that it is in service it is very hard to keep fixed missle regiments easily hidden. As such i believe that the DF-41 does exist, will serve in large numbers (50-100 missiles+) but will remain a state secret for as long as possible.

Let the Americans think that their missile defence sheild only needs to defent against a small handfull of DF-5's for as long as they like.

[renmin]

the chinese had never intended to nuke the US! it helps to develop WMDS to scare others, i do not think China would nuke the USAthere is really no reason plus America has done nothing to threaten china and China is a defending country and only attacks when attacked. and the DF-41? uh just wait till the next national day parade, they will present it to you, the parades are for showing the chinese people and and the world the strenght of the PLA.

[rice]

well, traveling a polar route, 12000km would just be a bit short to reach washington, but it can cover at least 3/4 of the u.s, the weatern states and central states.china never saw washington as a target untill recently.

actually, the direct flight distance from beijing to washington DC is 11143.93km

although we all know that beijing is not the closest point in china to the US

as for why china has wmds, the same reason other countries have i would imagine. why does the US have wmds?

[renmin]

actually, the direct flight distance from beijing to washington DC is 11143.93km

although we all know that beijing is not the closest point in china to the US

as for why china has wmds, the same reason other countries have i would imagine. why does the US have wmds?the US probably has it because they want to dominate the world and to show they are the supreme country (probably true), i believe china has WMDs to counter countries who want to harry them (like in the past: the opeam wars, Japan etc.).

try to stay away from nationalism here, USA developed nukes first for self defence remember ww2??

[tphuang]

alright, this is what I was trying to find. Should give you guys an idea of each BMs range. Remember, DF-31 was developed to be able to fit in a submarine tube, so obviously, it has shorter range.

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/4180/bmranges1fe.jpg

[chinawhite]

@ tphuang

Designed to fit into a submarine?

It was designed first and formost as a mobile ICBM. The development of the DF-31 was started in 1978. that means the intial planing and design was already fixed before. The Type-92 was first launched in 1981 with the JL-1/DF-21 being its main armement.

If it was designed to fit into a submainre tube there was no submainre that would have been available for it. The newer Type-94 submainre would be designed around the JL-2 missile instead of the missile designed around the submainre.

Regards,

Chinawhite

[renmin]

like Chinawhite said, the original development of the DF-31 was far before China had any ballistic missile submarines to fit the size of the missile itself, the idea of the JL-2 is to take a DF-31 missile and arm it on a submarine. the basic concept is still the same.and don't forget, the type 94 is still being designed

[MIGleader]

actually, the direct flight distance from beijing to washington DC is 11143.93km

although we all know that beijing is not the closest point in china to the US

as for why china has wmds, the same reason other countries have i would imagine. why does the US have wmds?

too risky. that would be stretching the limit of the missle to the brink, and youd have to count in wind speeds, atmospheric conditions,....plus the missle would be flying to long and would be detected.

actually remin, the first 94 has been launched to join the 92. its from strategy center. ive asked dongfeng repeated times to update the 94 page, but he wont.(lack of further info?)

[renmin]

too risky. that would be stretching the limit of the missle to the brink, and youd have to count in wind speeds, atmospheric conditions,....plus the missle would be flying to long and would be detected.

actually remin, the first 94 has been launched to join the 92. its from strategy center. ive asked dongfeng repeated times to update the 94 page, but he wont.(lack of further info?)oh I see, you can't find much information on the type94, it has not been updated for a long time. does any one have any more information on the JL-2 because it is defenantly not here.

[MIGleader]

oh I see, you can't find much information on the type94, it has not been updated for a long time. does any one have any more information on the JL-2 because it is defenantly not here.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/jl-2.htm
at least its "finished"

[renmin]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/jl-2.htm
at least its "finished"Thanks, the JL-2 has the same range as the DF-31. a range of 8,000 Km but the DF-31A has a range of 10,000km

[Sea Dog]

If I'm not mistaken, DF-31A also has an improved guidance package as well. The range is improved with an added booster stage. Is this correct? I believe DF-31 being used as a land variant was used to qualify JL-2 in all respects.

[renmin]

If I'm not mistaken, DF-31A also has an improved guidance package as well. The range is improved with an added booster stage. Is this correct? I believe DF-31 being used as a land variant was used to qualify JL-2 in all respects.true, the DF-31A can also deliver a payload of between 1,050 and 1,750 kg. it also uses an inertial guidance system equipped with a stellar update system. you can learn more info on the ballistic missiles of the world on missilethreat.com

[rice]

too risky. that would be stretching the limit of the missle to the brink, and youd have to count in wind speeds, atmospheric conditions,....plus the missle would be flying to long and would be detected.

we're not talking about the risk, you said china has no missiles that can reach washington DC, that's false. DF-5s can reach washington DC with plenty of fuel to spare

[tphuang]

oh I see, you can't find much information on the type94, it has not been updated for a long time. does any one have any more information on the JL-2 because it is defenantly not here.
What do you need to know on it, I have posted plenty of stuff on 094 in the navy section of this board.

As for DF-31, it's first flight was in 1992. Didn't China already have 092 by then? I'm sure China thought about making something that can be launched from SSBNs and be launched half way around the world.

We know, JL-2 was tested this year, probably on 092.

[renmin]

What do you need to know on it, I have posted plenty of stuff on 094 in the navy section of this board.

As for DF-31, it's first flight was in 1992. Didn't China already have 092 by then? I'm sure China thought about making something that can be launched from SSBNs and be launched half way around the world.

We know, JL-2 was tested this year, probably on 092. I still don't understand the basic layout of type 94 like its size, surely it has to be quite big to house 16 JL-2s, is it as large as those american trident subs?

[tphuang]

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=793
This has the article by a Taiwanese military magazine on China's submarine force. I translated the section on 094 already, so you can just check that out.

[renmin]

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=793
This has the article by a Taiwanese military magazine on China's submarine force. I translated the section on 094 already, so you can just check that out.Wow, thanks, so the type094 has already been built.Can that seriously carry 16 DF-31s because I was expecting it to be much larger than that. it seems like the JL-2s are housed in the middle of the sub and the type94 is armed with four torpedoes. this is going to be difficult to read

[tphuang]

here is another article:
http://img498.imageshack.us/img498/1193/2005823193018124130eb.jpg
As for JL-2, each JL-2 has 6 warheads I think? So, it can strike 96 targets, which increases the number of targets it can hit by 8 times.

Anyhow, this article says that 094 is probably going to be commissionned in 2007/2008, because it's likely to start sea trials this year. The real factor of its deployment depends on JL-2's release.

[adeptitus]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/jl-2.htm
at least its "finished"

Here's a good URL to world ballistic missile data:
http://www.missilethreat.com/missiles/

It's worth noting that on Globalsecurity, they list the JL-2 has being equipped with either a signle warhead or 3-4 (100kt) MIRV warheads, versus the above site claim the JL-2 could be armed with 3-8 (20kt - 90kt) MIRV warheads.

[MIGleader]

here is another article:
As for JL-2, each JL-2 has 6 warheads I think? So, it can strike 96 targets, which increases the number of targets it can hit by 8 times.

Anyhow, this article says that 094 is probably going to be commissionned in 2007/2008, because it's likely to start sea trials this year. The real factor of its deployment depends on JL-2's release.

thats interesting. strategy center claims the boat has already entered service.

i guess 3-4 is inclusive in 3-8. you can never get sources to agree

[Sea Dog]

thats interesting. strategy center claims the boat has already entered service.

i guess 3-4 is inclusive in 3-8. you can never get sources to agree

True. But I think the 3-8 figure is with a reduced yield (up to 90kt.) . The 3-4 has a 100kt. yield. So they're saying you can put more warheads on at a reduction in nuclear payload.

@remnin & tphuang - Thanks guys for the links. These verify some other data I've seen regarding DF-31.

[chinawhite]

tphuang


**-As for DF-31, it's first flight was in 1992. -**

Its first flight was in 1990's But its development period started in 1978. like i said before the design was already finalized and the period after that was development.

Regards,

Chinawhite

[tphuang]

tphuang


**-As for DF-31, it's first flight was in 1992. -**

Its first flight was in 1990's But its development period started in 1978. like i said before the design was already finalized and the period after that was development.

Regards,

Chinawhite
take a look, when do you think 092 started development? Check out that article I posted. I'm sure China is not that stupid, that it would develop a new generation icbm without thinking about possibly fitting it on its SSBN.

[renmin]

here is another article:
http://img498.imageshack.us/img498/1193/2005823193018124130eb.jpg
As for JL-2, each JL-2 has 6 warheads I think? So, it can strike 96 targets, which increases the number of targets it can hit by 8 times.

Anyhow, this article says that 094 is probably going to be commissionned in 2007/2008, because it's likely to start sea trials this year. The real factor of its deployment depends on JL-2's release.huh? I thought the JL-2 carries a single 1 MT yield nuclear warhead or 3 MIRV war heads. Any way, I've found some info on the DF-41. it supossed to be a silo or rail/road mobile based launch system armed with a single 1MT or MIRV with 20, 90, or 150kt with a 3 staged solid fuel propulsion. the PRC are planing to produce about 96 of these missile (alot of money!).

[chinawhite]

@ tphuang


**-take a look, when do you think 092 started development? Check out that article I posted. I'm sure China is not that stupid, that it would develop a new generation icbm without thinking about possibly fitting it on its SSBN.-**

China had just launched a submainre capable of launching ICBM three years after development work started on the DF-31.

During that time china had more dire need for a mobile ICBM not a SLBM. after the soviet union collasped progress was stalled on the problems with the Type-92 were apparent so it was decide to build a submainre capable of firing the DF-31.

Unlike you original statement which i quote
"Remember, DF-31 was developed to be able to fit in a submarine tube, so obviously, it has shorter range."

It wasn't designed for a submainre but modifled to fit on a submainre

Regards,

chinawhite

[renmin]

the DF-31's range can be increased by converting it to a shiped based launch platform. China is believed to have placed these missiles in cargo ships, tankers etc. the presence of the missile can't be easily detected (because it is solid fueled) unless the ship is searched by the US Coasties. the DF-31 is actually converted from the JL-2 which started development in 1970. the JL-2 was converted to a land based launch platform after some operational requirement changes. Given the name DF-23, it was later designated as DF-31.

[darth sidious]

For the DF-31 I think the sub was designed to fit the missile not the other way around the 094 mae little progress until the mide 90s when the chinese leadership put America on the number one list

[chinawhite]

[@ renmin

**-the DF-31 is actually converted from the JL-2 which started development in 1970. -**

Renmin how is that possible?

The JL-1 started development in the 1970's.?

Regards,

chinawhite

[renmin]

[@ renmin

**-the DF-31 is actually converted from the JL-2 which started development in 1970. -**

Renmin how is that possible?

The JL-1 started development in the 1970's.?

Regards,

chinawhiteactually, the JL-1 entered development in 1967. the JL-1's progress was slow due to difficulties mastering solid propellant technologies.it became operational in 1984. the JL-2 is a project to give the PRC a long range strike capability. the DF-31 followed the JL-2 shortly after it began.the JL-2 project started in the 1970s alone with a land based version known as DF-23 (DF-31) but were both redesigned in 1985 due to requirement changes and the DF-23 was later designated as DF-31. these changes occurred to take into account advancements in PRC warhead miniaturization technology.the Df-31 came out in 1999 while the JL-2 had little progress

[chinawhite]

renmin what are you basing these numbers on?

The JL-2 was designed as a SBLM what submainre was it suppose to go on? The chinese SBLM program was started in 1967 not the JL-1 missile

[renmin]

renmin what are you basing these numbers on?

The JL-2 was designed as a SBLM what submainre was it suppose to go on? The chinese SBLM program was started in 1967 not the JL-1 missileCalm down chinawhite. Im not making these numbers up. I have gotten this info from a book I bought from China which explained global military tech and some info from the internet but hay, im not here to fight a world war. you say the project was started in 1967 and that is your belief. I believe it is 1970 and I have not really known about type 94 so much. perhapes they were designing it at the same time. this thread is to hear everybody's opinions thank you chinawhite. I do not wish this thread to have any conflicts neither do I want anyone to get a warning. now lets please get back on topic and stop fighting over when the JL-2 project started. this is about China's WMDs not just JL-2.

renmin

[chinawhite]

renmin,

Your chinese and i wouldn't have a conflict with a chinese(unless they are annoying, which i dont find you). i thought i asked you pretty nicely where you got the numbers wrong. maye you interupted it wrong. anyway no problems here:)

This is my opinion because a SLBM is harder to develop than a mobile ICBM. china at the time was in more dire need for a ICBM than a SLBM thats what i am basing this on. Plus the fact that china at the time didn't have a Ballistic missile submarine to launch the missile.

Now lets look at the numbers.

1964>>Chinas fist A-bomb
Start of DF-4 program

1967>>Start of chinas solid fuel program
First H-bomb test

1970's>>Finish JL-1 test

At the time chian was facing threats from both the soviets and americans with threats to nuke china. China needed something as a deterant and those liquid power rockets wouldn't have lasted.


Regards,

chinawhite

[renmin]

renmin,

Your chinese and i wouldn't have a conflict with a chinese(unless they are annoying, which i dont find you). i thought i asked you pretty nicely where you got the numbers wrong. maye you interupted it wrong. anyway no problems here:)

This is my opinion because a SLBM is harder to develop than a mobile ICBM. china at the time was in more dire need for a ICBM than a SLBM thats what i am basing this on. Plus the fact that china at the time didn't have a Ballistic missile submarine to launch the missile.

Now lets look at the numbers.

1964>>Chinas fist A-bomb
Start of DF-4 program

1967>>Start of chinas solid fuel program
First H-bomb test

1970's>>Finish JL-1 test

At the time chian was facing threats from both the soviets and americans with threats to nuke china. China needed something as a deterant and those liquid power rockets wouldn't have lasted.


Regards,

chinawhiteSorry, no hard feelings chinawhite. I just did not want a conflict to erupt so better stop it before it happens and good guess, I am Chinese, back on topic all your numbers are fairly accuarate.the DF-4 was a misslie specificaly designed to reach the US bases on Guam which is 2,485 miles away but the distance was later changed to reach Moscow which is 2,796 miles away. Russia was the main threat to China ever since Josef Stalin died, Russia and China have broken up. At that time China had to have a nuke that they can use to retaileat if they are hit by a nuclear wepon and the main threats at that time were Russia and the USA.

[houzi]

From "The Military Power of the People’s Republic of China 2005" from U.S. DoD (http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jul2005/d20050719china.pdf), page 35:

China currently is capable of targeting its nuclear forces throughout the region and most of the world, including the continental United States. Newer systems, such as the DF-31 and DF-31A, will give China a more survivable nuclear force.

China currently deploys approximately twenty silo-based, liquid-propellant CSS-4 ICBMs, which constitute its primary nuclear deterrent. The Second Artillery also maintains approximately twenty liquid-fueled, more limited-range CSS-3 ICBMs to sustain its regional nuclear deterrent. The Second Artillery will likely keep this older missile in service until it is replaced by the more survivable, road-mobile DF-31. China supplements the aged CSS-2s with solid-propellant, road-mobile CSS-5 MRBMs.

[MIGleader]

From "The Military Power of the People’s Republic of China 2005" from U.S. DoD (http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jul2005/d20050719china.pdf), page 35:

China currently is capable of targeting its nuclear forces throughout the region and most of the world, including the continental United States. Newer systems, such as the DF-31 and DF-31A, will give China a more survivable nuclear force.

China currently deploys approximately twenty silo-based, liquid-propellant CSS-4 ICBMs, which constitute its primary nuclear deterrent. The Second Artillery also maintains approximately twenty liquid-fueled, more limited-range CSS-3 ICBMs to sustain its regional nuclear deterrent. The Second Artillery will likely keep this older missile in service until it is replaced by the more survivable, road-mobile DF-31. China supplements the aged CSS-2s with solid-propellant, road-mobile CSS-5 MRBMs.

yo, monkey boy(thats your name isnt it?):D , never get something about china from the u.s Dod. they constantly point out how china has nuclear missles capable of targeting anywhere, including the u.s. but in reality, china's strategic projection abilities are minimal compared to russias or americas. thats why china's been so busy building longer range, more accurate nuclear weapons. but really, nowadays, nukles are just as outdated as the battle ship. they fuel arms races, but have little use in reality because everyone's too scared to use them. they offer a sense of national pride and security, but not much more.

anyone have information on the great wall project beyond the basics?

[renmin]

I agree with MIGleader. while Dong Feng 31 might be China's current most advanced nuclear system, it only has the range of 10,000 km at the most so shot from China, it can only hit a few targets. For example, the USA, targets could be USA MX missile feilds, or the B-2 bomber base. But houzi (monkey in Chinese) could be right as to if the JL-2 or DF-41 systems becomes operational or China can symply arm DF-31 missiles on tankers or supply ships to hide the missile. since DF-31 is solid propelent, it can't be detected as easily as liquid propelent.

[jason_chiu888]

the chinese had never intended to nuke the US! it helps to develop WMDS to scare others, i do not think China would nuke the USAthere is really no reason plus America has done nothing to threaten china and China is a defending country and only attacks when attacked. and the DF-41? uh just wait till the next national day parade, they will present it to you, the parades are for showing the chinese people and and the world the strenght of the PLA.

Are you nuts??? Do you think China spends around billions of dollars to just defend itself??? you think the government have no other work than to spend all this money and keep the ICBMs in their showcase??? Let me tell you something sonny. I don't know where you from but the chinese government are not dumbos. we are the ones who are not so bright posting here and there in each and every forum we come across thinking this is right and that is right. And if the Chinese government are as dumb as we think they are they would also be here sittng in this forum posting like the rest of us.
I really don't know what to tell you but you seem quite naive about politics. let me also add this.... the republicans just can't stand Red China! they hate anything that's RED! and mind you. taiwan is the only cancer between the US and China. tell you the truth we have no friggin idea of what they are planning. can you imagine politics at the highest level??? just dig deeper and probably you'll have an idea of what i am talking about here.

[MIGleader]

Are you nuts??? Do you think China spends around billions of dollars to just defend itself??? you think the government have no other work than to spend all this money and keep the ICBMs in their showcase??? Let me tell you something sonny. I don't know where you from but the chinese government are not dumbos. we are the ones who are not so bright posting here and there in each and every forum we come across thinking this is right and that is right. And if the Chinese government are as dumb as we think they are they would also be here sittng in this forum posting like the rest of us.
I really don't know what to tell you but you seem quite naive about politics. let me also add this.... the republicans just can't stand Red China! they hate anything that's RED! and mind you. taiwan is the only cancer between the US and China. tell you the truth we have no friggin idea of what they are planning. can you imagine politics at the highest level??? just dig deeper and probably you'll have an idea of what i am talking about here.

well, this is not a politics forum. if u came here to talk about politics, plz leave.

china originally build icbms to give itself a first strike ability on moscow, shoud war with russia ever happen. since the end of the cold war, chinas setting its nuclear projection abilities global, and prides itself in being one of the few nuclear powers in the world. so its half and half.

[jason_chiu888]

well, this is not a politics forum. if u came here to talk about politics, plz leave.

china originally build icbms to give itself a first strike ability on moscow, shoud war with russia ever happen. since the end of the cold war, chinas setting its nuclear projection abilities global, and prides itself in being one of the few nuclear powers in the world. so its half and half.

of course this is not politics forum. if you think i came here to preach about politics then think again. oh yeah this is also not a technical forum. how is it that i see you blabbering away at technical details in your posts? please don't try to advice others!

[Gollevainen]

Well let me advise you all...cut the temper and back to the topic...leave the personal confrontation elsewhere, cos it will eventually led to personal attacks. :off

ps. I'm a mod (there seems to have been a few misunderstandment), an angry one indeed so think twice before you start to mourn about it....

[renmin]

Gollevainen is right. leave your temper behind jason chiu888. Let me advise you that I do not want any conflicts on this tread so lay off the insults. the PLA is not only for defence, it is also to retaileat against an attack by another country. Look im chinese so I know how China uses its military. Im not going to get off topic or go into politics so Im going to make this short. Defence is not dumb, its a matter of keeping peace. Attaking others for no good reason is dumb something that China will never do. There, end of story! Sorry, Gollevainen I got a bit off topic. Back on topic, like what MIgleader said, China developed nukes because at that time, the PRC and Soviet Union were braking up and at any moment, Russia could nuke or bomb China so the PRC had to have someway to retaileat against this threat.

[houzi]

yes you can call me monkey :) but didn't the soviets provide the PRC with engineers and nuclear expertise before their split? so it seems then if the soviets later became the main target of the PRC nuke program, this was short-sighted of the soviets

hmm also.. if US DoD overstates PRC capabilities, they do this on purpose or accident? why say that just to be alarmist? for more military funding?

[MIGleader]

well, its pretty well known that the u.s likes to advocate the "china threat", making china look threatening to the world. but china;d nuclear abilities are only decent compared to russia or america. i think it would be a great way for america to obtain funding for its "missle shield".

heres a great article from sinodefence:
quote:
Although the black power rocket was originally invented by the ancient Chinese, no indigenous effort in development of missiles took place until the 1950s, when the newly founded People’s Republic of China (PRC) began to build its defence industry under the assistance of the Soviet Union. In October 1956, China established its first missile research and development institute—the 5th Research Academy of the Ministry of National Defence, which was led by American-trained rocket scientist Qian Xue-Sen. In November 1960, China successfully launched its first indigenous ballistic missile. By the later 1960s, China had already deployed operational nuclear-armed DF-2A short-range surface-to-surface ballistic missile.

Although China’s strategic missile programme is the smallest among the top-five nuclear countries (behind US, Russia, UK and France), it is the oldest and most advanced in Asia. The Chinese nuclear delivery systems are mainly based ballistic missiles, plus a small number of sea-based systems (submarine-launched ballistic missiles, SLBMs). Chinese ballistic missiles range from short-range theatre missiles to intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs). Meanwhile China is replacing the outdated first-generation missile systems with the second-generation systems with improved accuracy and better mobility, and is developing land-/sea-based cruise missiles for both strategic and tactical purposes.

In addition to the strategic missile assets, China has also developed a range of short- and intermediate-range ballistic missiles carrying conventional warheads. These missiles provide a strategic capability without the political and practical constraints associated with nuclear-armed missiles. Carried on the missile transporter-erector-launcher (TEL), the missile system provide a survivable and effective conventional strike force, as will future procurement of conventionally armed ballistic missiles and land-attack cruise missiles. During the 1996 Taiwan Strait crisis, the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) demonstrated its conventional theatre missile capabilities to the whole world. At the same time, various tactical missile systems for air defence, anti-armour, air combat, and anti-ship purposes began to be equipped in significant numbers by all three services of the PLA.

China has extensive and well-established infrastructures to design, develop, test and manufacture all kinds of air-, land- and sea-based missile systems. Through a variety of indigenous development programmes and foreign purchases, the PLA is modernising its missile capabilities to support its operational aspiration of “fighting a local war under hi-tech conditions”. This effort has been supported by China’s growing science and technology capabilities, as well as its access to advanced missile and relevant technologies from Russia and Western countries.


china had "the bomb" by 1964, and the "bigger bomb" by 1967
how to deliver it?
http://www.sinodefence.com/missile/nuclear/df4.asp

[jason_chiu888]

Gollevainen is right. leave your temper behind jason chiu888. Let me advise you that I do not want any conflicts on this tread so lay off the insults. the PLA is not only for defence, it is also to retaileat against an attack by another country. Look im chinese so I know how China uses its military. Im not going to get off topic or go into politics so Im going to make this short. Defence is not dumb, its a matter of keeping peace. Attaking others for no good reason is dumb something that China will never do. There, end of story! Sorry, Gollevainen I got a bit off topic. Back on topic, like what MIgleader said, China developed nukes because at that time, the PRC and Soviet Union were braking up and at any moment, Russia could nuke or bomb China so the PRC had to have someway to retaileat against this threat.

hey ren min i am cool bro.... i didn't intentionally attack you. look... am chinese too.. so let's get back to topic then shall we? and i apologize if i have offended you in anyway coz i did not have any temper. maybe it was just misunderstanding.
yeah now the topic... please carry on....

[renmin]

hmm also.. if US DoD overstates PRC capabilities, they do this on purpose or accident? why say that just to be alarmist? for more military funding?Indeed, America does not really feel to good about China possesing nuclear wepons. but China's current technology is still improving and trying to catch up. China really can not hit many US targets from mainland so to be realistic, if you look at it as China launching its weapons from mainland, it can not really hit many global targets. But that does not meen PRC is weak, It's nuclear power is right under US and Russia. In many ways the America of today can not really prevent a ICBM attack, for example, patriots, THAAD, and ABL are all designed to shot down MRBMs like SCUDs. But then again no one really has the guts to use nukes. Oh and thank you for understanding me jason_chiu888, politics is something no one should ever post on these types of forums because they always lead to conflicts and disaster. Oh and don't look at the USA as a bad country, relations are really improving these days.

[akinkhoo]

USA doesn't feel good about ANYONE with nuke. :nana: they prefer to keep their hyperpower status of being unrival and will :nono: ANYONE they like.

i never really believe in any formed of justification of the USA; see iraq :roll: their military budget is at least 6 times larger than the 2nd biggest. if USA is uneasy about someone spending 1/6 of their budget. shouldn't the world be terrified of USA? :( isn't the USA and UK modernizing their own nuke as well? why when they do it, it is okand when china does it, it is bad?


china happens to be doing :china: hence an easy excuse.

[renmin]

USA doesn't feel good about ANYONE with nuke. :nana: they prefer to keep their hyperpower status of being unrival and will :nono: ANYONE they like.

i never really believe in any formed of justification of the USA; see iraq :roll: their military budget is at least 6 times larger than the 2nd biggest. if USA is uneasy about someone spending 1/6 of their budget. shouldn't the world be terrified of USA? :( isn't the USA and UK modernizing their own nuke as well? why when they do it, it is okand when china does it, it is bad?

they are just using political excuses to rally support of their own internal problem like an oversized military budget. they need to consistantly create enemies to justify spending the money on military for maintaining their world dominance.

china happens to be doing :china: hence an easy excuse.Remember, the USA and UK are allies, I bet America dosent feel too good about UK possesing nukes either but they do not want to threaten relationship so they just allow it. On the other hand, America is not allies with Russia or China so they can oppose their posesion of nukes.

[BLUEJACKET]

The reason is as old as the Cold War itself: Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD). If a victim of the 1st strike can still inflict unacceptable level of damage in return than the arsenal it posseses is worth having (even if never used for actual retaliation).
The purpose of SSBN force is to have credible 2nd strike capability. But unless the PLAN deploys an Ohio class-like top-of-the line sub that can pass undetected through the straits (and/or secures permament basing on Russian Kamchatka peninsula, which is unlikely at this point) & patrol in the open ocean, in the event of the 1st nuclear and/or large scale conventional strike on China her SSBNs will be disabled/destoyed - even those on patrol in the seas surrounding the PRC. If not enemy SSNs like Virginia/Seawolf/LA classes, a few nukes detonated in those closed seas will knock them out. So, for the forseeble future PLAN will not be able provide a credible 2nd strike capability with its SSBNs.
For more in depth discussion on this very topic, please see my posts & post your replies on this tread-

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=2499

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/HK11Ag01.html