PLA new high-mobility vehicle thread

[Dongfeng]

Dongfeng "Hanma" (Hummer copy)

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/0511102121251_33.jpeg (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

[Dongfeng]

Dongfeng Armour in road test

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/20051132205090.jpeg (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

[Dongfeng]

This photo confirms that a small number of the Chinese HMMWV is now in operational service

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/20057302051340.jpeg (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

[MIGleader]

the updates on chinas light transports are now posted here, since the original thread was closed.

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/transport/bj2020.asp
BJ2020SJ LIGHTWEIGHT UTILITY VEHICLE

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/transport/nj2046.asp
NJ2045/2046 CROSS-COUNTRY CARRIER

[sumdud]

I don't get it, why is China getting 4 types of MP vehicle(Humvee copy, 2046, BJ, FAV),
especially when two of them share identical roles?(BJ, Humvee copy).
The FAV is logical for airborne forces, and the 2046 too, while hauling more for less capability.
But two Jeeps? Why?

[MIGleader]

its like asg why america is getting f-22s andkin still more f-16s. one serve as a cheap aricraft to bolster the force, and the other is a more advanced platform for total domination. the hummer is for more elite units, and the bj is a replacement ofr the older bj2020s
pardon, the oneliner, its kinda hard not to wirte onw when the thread is so wide.

[Obcession]

I seriously think the different kinds of vehicles China is getting can get pretty messy. And I'm not only referring to these humvee copies. Recently China has developed quite a few indigeneous weapons, supplies could pose a huge problem. I say we keep on downsizing the army, so we can standardize everything, and bring them up to the level of preparedness and training and equipment to the RRU units. This way, it will not cost too much money, and also bringing up the bulk of the army up to date. Oh, recent elections in Taiwan, KMT won by a landslide.

[Wingman]

HMMVV has better performance overall. Speed, loading, and maybe more stability due to the wider body. Maybe they're using it as a temporary replacement before new ones come out.

Lost of Americans were very pissed off that Ford (GM, sorry) sold the design to China cos the Hummer is like "a symbol of America."

Oh, recent elections in Taiwan, KMT won by a landslide.
What?! When was that? I can't find any news about it

[vincelee]

GM, not Ford.


Then again, both are on the verge of major downsizing and corporate restructuring. If you ask me, these two had it coming. Besides the unreasonable amount of union bagage these two companies have to carry, their entire management philosophy just pisses me off. Everytime I see the "Professional Grade Engineering" ad from GM, I say to my self, "Professional for the 80's, perhaps".

[MIGleader]

I seriously think the different kinds of vehicles China is getting can get pretty messy. And I'm not only referring to these humvee copies. Recently China has developed quite a few indigeneous weapons, supplies could pose a huge problem. I say we keep on downsizing the army, so we can standardize everything, and bring them up to the level of preparedness and training and equipment to the RRU units. This way, it will not cost too much money, and also bringing up the bulk of the army up to date. Oh, recent elections in Taiwan, KMT won by a landslide.

well, i think the pla is going to retire the bj2020 and the eq2081, to be replaced by more modern designs. in the future, the chinese truck fleet should be signifigantly smaller than it is now. its always the trnsitional stage thats hard, thats thats where china is now.

[Kampfwagen]

It kind of reminds me of WW2 Germany with what has been said here. There were so many diffrent designs for various weapons and vehicles that there were TOO many, and it drew both resources and funds away from continuing to develop on proven designs and also put the army units into chaos with new and unfamiliar designs.

[MIGleader]

well, unlike ww2 germany, china is not at war. it can afford to take its time to compare every possible combination of vehicles to make the perfect transport force. hurrying normally results in disaster. besides, the chinese humvee is already a proven vehicle, both in the civilian feilds and with other militaries.

[Kampfwagen]

Well, thank you for the clarification. But I have to ask, why do they only feild it to the elite units and not the whole of the army if cost issues arent a problem? Now of course, testing and feilding with the elite units may just be a prelude to mass replacement of the older BJ2020's with the regular units.

[MIGleader]

cost most certainly is an issue. the hummer is pretty expensive(the civilian h2costs over $50000!). the hummer is thus for elite units, while the brave warrior is for replacement of bj2020s. the same can be said for the type 96 and 98 tanks.

[akita]

The American Humvee (Hummer) is NOT a GM or Ford product. It was developed and is sold to military customers by A.M.General Corporation.

General Motors bought a license to sell civilian versions and developed two follow-on civilian clones, the H2 and H3.

The Chinese Donfeng version is built with the assistance of AM General and they are implementing the complete indigenozation of the vehicle. It is actually, (to my eyes at least), a better looking 4x4 than the American original.

The Humvee does not compete with the BJ2020 class of Jeep--they are complimentary. The U.S. military always uses jeeps, CUCVs, etc...as lower cost/lower-capability compliments for less demanding roles.

Ben James
Oklahoma, USA

[hallo84]

cost most certainly is an issue. the hummer is pretty expensive(the civilian h2costs over $50000!). the hummer is thus for elite units, while the brave warrior is for replacement of bj2020s. the same can be said for the type 96 and 98 tanks.

civilian h2 isn't the Hmmwv. It's built off a Jeep 4x4 SUV chassis. Which makes it one expensive gas guzzling luxury SUV but I would never take it for extreme off road. The shocks and wheels won't hold up to the abuse. I won't be surprised if the axle cracks in under a day. Same could be said for brave warrior.

[akita]

The Civilian H2 is based on the General Motors (Chevy and GMC) Suburban large SUV, not a Jeep chassis. Jeep is a Chrysler (now Daimler Chrysler) product, part owners of Beijing Jeep Corporation.

Ben James
Oklahoma, USA

[Butthead3977]

isn't it true that the american's are looking to replace the Humvee?

[akita]

Yes they are. But the process will take years and, in the meantime, they are still buying very large numbers of new Humvees.

I think the PLA made a very wise decision to invest in the Dongfeng version of the Humvee. It has 3 times the load capacity of the BJ Jeep, has a fuel-efficient Cummins diesel engine, (which DFM now builds under in partnership with Cummins USA) and it is adaptable to hundreds of roles.

I predict it will lead to the phase out of purchase of new Iveco light trucks.

The little BJC 'Brave Warrior' Jeeps are still a good deal for pilot and liason vehicles, military police, etc...

Ben James Oklahoma, USA

[Pointblank]

Yes they are. But the process will take years and, in the meantime, they are still buying very large numbers of new Humvees.

I think the PLA made a very wise decision to invest in the Dongfeng version of the Humvee. It has 3 times the load capacity of the BJ Jeep, has a fuel-efficient Cummins diesel engine, (which DFM now builds under in partnership with Cummins USA) and it is adaptable to hundreds of roles.

I predict it will lead to the phase out of purchase of new Iveco light trucks.

The little BJC 'Brave Warrior' Jeeps are still a good deal for pilot and liason vehicles, military police, etc...

Ben James Oklahoma, USA

And I can tell you, Iveco trucks do not have a very good reputation here in Canada, especially with the Canadian Forces... there is a reason why the LSVW is often referred to as the Light Squeaky Vehicle, Wheeled.

[akita]

Pointblank: I had forgotten that the some of the same, or very similar, vehicles, are used by Canadian Forces and the PLA: the LSVW and the Percheron.
(China upgraded it's Shaanqui tactical vehicle fleet with Steyr cabs and chassis/drive componants to get a new truck family very similar in spec to the canadian Percheron tactical truck. A lot of'em were built, by Shaanqi and CNHTC among others, but they have now upgraded the spec again with a locally designed tactical cab and MAN drivetrain componants.)
I hadn't heard the LSVW was so little thought of in Canadian use. Who knows? Maybe that is the reason for the introduction of the Chumvee?

[Pointblank]

Pointblank: I had forgotten that the some of the same, or very similar, vehicles, are used by Canadian Forces and the PLA: the LSVW and the Percheron.
(China upgraded it's Shaanqui tactical vehicle fleet with Steyr cabs and chassis/drive componants to get a new truck family very similar in spec to the canadian Percheron tactical truck. A lot of'em were built, by Shaanqi and CNHTC among others, but they have now upgraded the spec again with a locally designed tactical cab and MAN drivetrain componants.)
I hadn't heard the LSVW was so little thought of in Canadian use. Who knows? Maybe that is the reason for the introduction of the Chumvee?

The Steyr trucks are much loved in the Canadian Forces for their carrying capacity and how well built they are. The Ivenco's are a different story. It was something that should never have been bought in the first place, but political considerations override the evaluation that essentially, the vehicle was a piece of crap, and it failed all of its engineering trials. I'm thinking that the Chinese has had similar success with the Steyr vehicles because they are well built and designed.

[cooker]

i would assume 90% of Brave Warriors are for officers/communication, while Hummers are for front line troops with tolerance and rooms for combat.

[akita]

Probably correct. In today's mechanized combat scenario, the little Jeeps are simply too light to carry the loads needed over 'death ground.'

[cooker]

however, it would be nice if PLA is going for 100% hummers so the officers could drive around and pick up a few chicks through the town. lol

[drunkencanadian]

could it be the different vehicles for each different military regions ?

[Pointblank]

could it be the different vehicles for each different military regions ?

It seems that they are all built to differing requirements, which cause multiple vehicles to be produced. I expect in the future, there will be major rationalization of the Chinese logistic vehicle fleet to concentrate on perhaps 3-4 models.

I also expect that the Chinese will draw upon lessons learned by Western militaries and head towards more heavier vehicle designs that can be more easily uparmoured. The current issue with many trucks in Western service in Iraq and Afghanistan is that uparmouring them, even though it does provide protection against small arms and IED's, does stresses the suspension and drive chain which causes decreased service life, not to mention the decrease in payload.