Battalion-level and below organization

[nidpants]

I posted this in the old forum just before it went down but didn't get a chance to check replies.

It's pretty simple to find the names of ranks in the PLA ground forces, but finding organizational structure (and names for them) for even an archetypal motorized, infantry, or armor formation is extremely difficult! I pored over The People's Liberation Army as Organization, but found nothing. Unfortunately i only speak english, so this may or may not be a large contributing factor.

What i'm interested in is a breakdown of basic organizational formation of modern and recent PLA ground forces, such as "number of men in an infantry fire team/teams per squad/squads per platoon etc." and "number of tanks per platoon and company etc." I would also like to know what these formations are called and how this is written in Pinyin as well as in Simplified (i don't have the ability to read non-Roman characters right now, but i will soon)

[Red Guard]

oh man, this is so hard. me as chinese i don't even know it. somehow it's different in some of the divisions.
i only know this, regularly in peace time, there are 8 people in one squad, lead by a squad leader with rank of normally sergant? now i think it's 2nd or 3rd NCO. my friend is in reserves, so he told me, in war time, 8 men squad will be expanded to 12 men squad, as 4 from local reserves unit. this was proven in operation 1979 against viet nam. local reserves, and soldiers who retired from serves within 2 years were called on. so, as far as my knowledge, which i will check with my friend in the army later on tonight, there are 3 squards in one platoon, and 3 platoon in 1 company plus support squad as well. and 3 companies in 1 battalion, 3 battalion in 1 regiment, and 3 regiments in 1 division. now this could be incorrect, it's only my common knowledge, i will check with my friend later on and get back to you.

squad, Ban, squad leader Ban Zhang (basic Zhang means leader, commander)
platoon, Pai, platoon leader Pai Zhang ( and so on for every unit)
company, Lian
battalion, ying
regiment, Tuan
division, Shi
army, Jun, or now it's group army, Jituan Jun.

[Gollevainen]

and finding similar charts for artillery units would be even nicer (as we all know that the artillery IS the most IMPORTANT branch in ground forces and are the ones that make the difference who wins or loses;) :D ;) )
expecially ones whit 122mm howtizer of soviet D-30 type, as I have myself served in similar battery, it would be more than nice to know wheter the chinese derivate differens from finnish one. Also, does anybody got clue how firedirectors are organised in PLA? Do the go along whit infantry or more like a seperate 'fift colon of the artillery' among the infantry but subordinated to artillery battalions as they do in here?

[Red Guard]

which is very great, because my friend is in arti......was....

[chopsticks]

:confused: :confused: :confused:

i thought i read some months ago (my local newspaper) China was shifting its divisional style to the brigade type division???

group army > brigade > battalion > company

that was the reason for all the manpower cuts and shifting and such..

[Mr_C]

This is one of those things that the PLA likes to keep it confusing for outside people. But i know that they organise their troops depending on terrian of the regions that they are located. So it will be different for mountainous terrrain in tibet and different for the plains in Xinjiang and different in Beijing.

[Red Guard]

:confused: :confused: :confused:

i thought i read some months ago (my local newspaper) China was shifting its divisional style to the brigade type division???

group army > brigade > battalion > company

that was the reason for all the manpower cuts and shifting and such..


yes, and no. armies like 38,39,27, the type A honour armies wouldn't be going down to brigade size. to my knowledge, right now, the brigade size is mostly for type B divisions, to concentrate on less people and more mobility. and also some of the type A divisons, such as my brother in law's division is now a brigade. i came to think they would do that to size down the unit and increase the mobility which creat a US kind light cavalry brigade unit. only my feeling.

[chopsticks]

yes, and no. armies like 38,39,27, the type A honour armies wouldn't be going down to brigade size. to my knowledge, right now, the brigade size is mostly for type B divisions, to concentrate on less people and more mobility. and also some of the type A divisons, such as my brother in law's division is now a brigade. i came to think they would do that to size down the unit and increase the mobility which creat a US kind light cavalry brigade unit. only my feeling.


sorry but i don't really understand what u wrote... do u mean that while most B units are being reshuffled to Brigade type, SOME A units will be selectively shuffled to Brigade type too?

also btw, does B units NECESSARILY mean reservists and short-term service???

and also, by what u said earlier, if A units are expanded during war by reservists from B unit, then what will become of the B units??? do they so-called get "cannibalised" and "broken up" to give to the A units????

lol sorry for so many questions..

[Gollevainen]

If China follows the normal Warsav pact/Russian system, the B level units would be mobilised whit Reservist, not assigned to any particul unit, as they are in else where. A level units are mostly manned in full strength (if the levels are below, it migth be that they arent beeing expanned by any particular manner. Remember, all manpower levels are desirable figures that cannot be possible conducted perfectly, as long as the manpower consist of humans.)

Chinese system goes trough changes rigth now and its not possible to make out clear image of it as complex before the changes comes frutile.

[Red Guard]

sorry but i don't really understand what u wrote... do u mean that while most B units are being reshuffled to Brigade type, SOME A units will be selectively shuffled to Brigade type too?

also btw, does B units NECESSARILY mean reservists and short-term service???

and also, by what u said earlier, if A units are expanded during war by reservists from B unit, then what will become of the B units??? do they so-called get "cannibalised" and "broken up" to give to the A units????

lol sorry for so many questions..

okay, it's normal to have questions, i have a lot of them as well :D
first to your questions. i have no idea where people get this ideal of B units are reservist. the answer is NO. PLA isn't like canadian force or USarmy. PLA reservists are not part of the PLA battle order. PLA reserves, well, most of them are army reserves, also called militaria ( maybe i spelled wrong), they are not like canadian rerservist count as part of the force. they are basicly soldiers that are retired from the service, and young adults in the factory (used to), they are the people who are being military trained and not as professional as a regular army soldier, unlikly a canadian army reservist is almost as same as a regular army soldier.
from what i was saying earlier, during war time, a 8 men squard will be expanded to a 12 men squard with extra 4 men come from the local rerserves. those are NOT the B unit, they are just civilians that are military trained. Now, this is much more likly in the full scale invasion time. But in 1979, it was seen in some of the troops.
What is a B unit? a B unit is an unit which is not as strong as an A unit (duh~~~~) They are regular soldiers, but they are not equiped as good as A, their training isn't as tough as A, they don't get lots of advanced equipment, and so on. Mostly, a B infantry unit is a motorized unit, comparing to most A infanty units are mech infantry units. For example, a B unit would be issued with type 63/85 APC, along with Type 59/69 MBT, and they would use 81 rifle (which back to many years ago, they would use 56, as A use 81). While, today's A unit is using type 86/90 APC, tank as type 99/96, and would use 95, and they have chopper training and so on....
A unit was designed to fight with the elite soviet troops, during the war, while the B unit will be powered up during the time they are fighting and put into action. and no, both A and B units soldier serve a equal 2 years (3 years? i lost my count, they changed the deal)
And what i am saying about the downsizing.
from today's news, we could see that, many of the B unit division is downscaling into brigade, which is with less men, but more advanced equipment. This is a change from the old thinking of "more men, more power". But armys like 38,39,27, 31, won't be changed to brigade seize. but there ARE some of the A division downseizing into brigade, which i have no idea why. i think it's because they want to increase the mobility of the troop. as a fast deploying.
i don't know if i explained well or not, if you have any more questions about this, just ask away, i will try to explain more clear.

[chopsticks]

*wow* u sure know a lot!!! haha...

so do all troops serve only 2 - 3 years?

are u able to sign a longer contract for maybe 15 years? or is 2 - 3 years only for conscripts ??? do they even still conscript??????



ps: i think u were referring to the word militia for reservists
ps2: are u Chinese? living in China now?

[Red Guard]

hehe, no i don't know A lot comparing to my forum's army guys, i learn a lot from them. these things i am talking about is just common knowledge for a chinese military fan, it's just like a US military fan should have the recruiting knowledge about US force.
i am not sure how long they serve now, i need to ask my friends, i think it's 2 years now, because they changed the deal, it used to be 3 years, now you go into the army as a private and promote to second class private (or some may refer as corporal, but corpral was actually the third class), then you will be promoted to first class tech sergant (which equals to old corporal class) right before you got retired, because it will get you a better job position in local, it's the tradition to promote one class higher rank right before your retirement.
there is something you should understand, in china, people WANT to join the army, so you don't really sign a "contract", it's your duty to serve in the army. which i found it strange when i first came to canada, and i see canadian soldiers SIGN a contract when they go into the army.....
normal people stay in service for 2 years, if you want to stay, you need to get promoted to tech sergant, there are 6 classes. And after you got onto a certainly level, i think it's about....3rd class, you could apply for military school, but i heard now they stopped doing that, because of the diploma thing.....talking about conscripts, huh, that's a good question, because, as i said chinese people WANT to go to army, people bribe the recruiting officer to get their children into the army, because obviously, some of the peole are not qualified. many are too young, i know people go into army at age of 14, many have not finished even primary school, this happens mostly to people in the rural, but still, many soldiers are not finished with high school. Speaking of that, back 20 years ago, soldiers are mostly considered as very good people, the army is a great job choice, militaryman is the model. only the best young people could join the army, today.......that's one of the thing we worry about the most, and the army's relationship with the civilians are not good anymore, as soldiers do bad things outside of the barracks. So, mostly, there is almost no conscriptions now.

i am a militaria fan...........
yes i am chinese, but i live in canada, came here since i was 14, 6 years ago.

[chopsticks]

okie, thanks for the reply!!! :)
PM him next time please!

[Aluka]

I have a question on PLA squad structure. Do troops have fixed weapons? Does squad structure depends on vehicle type? What exactly weapons (or weapon types) troops use?
Russian infantry squads have fixed weapon schemes, so i was wandering, how do chinese ones look compared to ours. For example BMP-3 squad may have only two squad types (at least in peacefull time):
-Squad commander with AK-74/GP-25
-Chief "shooter" (strelok) with AK-74/GP-25
-ATGM Fagot operator, has AK-74
-"Shooter" with AK-74 and RPG-22
-"Shooter" with AK-74 (nomer rascheta)
-Grenade support with RPG-7 and AKS-74U
-PKM operator
-PKM operator
OR:
-Squad commander with AK-74/GP-25
-Chief "shooter" (strelok) with AK-74/GP-25
-ATGM Fagot operator, has AK-74
-"Shooter" with AK-74 and RPG-22
-"Shooter" with AK-74 (nomer rascheta)
-AGS-17 operator
-PKM operator
-PKM operator

[lazzydigger]

Red Guard, from what I know and the last Tiananman military parade, the reservist are not the same as militia. The reservist unit are Army units with regular training. Such like the AA units in Shanghai, mostly former serviceman with current/ex-army officer. They are organic to regular army units. If war time, they can be quickly assembled to bring the units to full strength. They usually issued with the same army uniforms as the regulars and must pass physical.

On the other hand, Militias are mostly man/woman from factories, especially large state owned corporations. They are organic to local people's district militria office and security offices of the corporations. The training is very basic to non-existant. They probably shoot 5 rounds peer year, just to make sure they know how to pop a rifle. Such units can be seem from baotou steel works, state owned mines. They usually have blue uniforms much like a factory worker's outfit. They formed vast war time recurits to replace casualties.

Dong feng had some good information on that too. http://www.sinodefence.com/army/orbat/reserve.asp

Any way, as the time changes. militia will gradually phase out and reservist will be come the true backbone of third line troops.