Ws13a?

[skyhawk2005]

Will Pakistan get TOT on this engine?

I've read reports that say Pakistan will manufacture 100% JF17 in a few years. Does that include the Engine, radar, etc?
Or is it restricted to airframe only?

[tphuang]

well, Pakistan already has an assembley line for Griffo S7, right? As for WS-13A, who knows? Pakistan really did not pay for the development of this engine. And besides, does Pakistan have the technology required to manufacture turbofan engines.?

[skyhawk2005]

well, Pakistan already has an assembley line for Griffo S7, right? As for WS-13A, who knows? Pakistan really did not pay for the development of this engine. And besides, does Pakistan have the technology required to manufacture turbofan engines.?


No, but then again, that's what TOT is about. Transferring technology over.

[tphuang]

no, but the point is whether or not Pakistan has the industrial capability to even produce turbofan engines?

[skyhawk2005]

no, but the point is whether or not Pakistan has the industrial capability to even produce turbofan engines?


No, they didn't. Neither did they have the capacity to make the JF17 or the radar, but that is what TOT is for.

Transfer Of Technology, the capability to manufacture locally.

So, does anyone have the answer to this question?

Is it 100% of the JF17, or 100% of the airframe?

I don't think WS13 or any jet engine is part of the TOT, but I could be wrong.

[tphuang]

there are certain technology that even if you give a country everything they need to know, they would not be able to produce it. That's why you see that the French are having doubts about whether or not the indians can actually build the Scorpenes. Anyhow, here is what I get from PDF. http://www.****************.com/news/FullNews/2005/May2005/JF17SerailProduction.htm
" The official said 50 per cent of the airframe would initially be manufactured in Pakistan and it would progressively be enhanced to 100 per cent. Similarly, cooperation with original equipment manufacturers would be expanded over a period of time for co-production of avionics systems. Twenty-two avionics systems would be co-produced at PAC including radar, self-protection jammer, high-tech flight control and mission computers. The PAC chairman said the JF-17 project would ensure availability of an affordable and sustainable weapon system for the PAF capable of meeting its operational requirements. He said a new technical manpower of 3,000 personnel would be created only for the project of JF-17."

So, what PAF gets to co-produce is the airframe and the avionics. What it doesn't co-produce is the engine and the AAMs.

Speaking of avionics, this is a picture of Grifo s7 from beijing airshow:
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/9374/grifos78mx.jpg

[skyhawk2005]

tell that to the pakistani members and u will get ur ass kicked. what makes u say that? i would assume as long as pakistan had the blueprints, technical data, and some chinese aids, they could do it. soon they wouldnt need the aids.


***. Making an aircraft engine is the most difficult thing to do, even if you have the blueprints, and aid.
I think that you should research more in the engine construction. Maybe Akula can enlight us on this, since he's a aircraft engine enginneer...

*******************************************

We discuss like civilised people here, try to do not attack the other !!!

[crazyinsane105]

Let me settle this once and for all: if Pakistan can make serial production of ballistic missiles, Al Khalid tanks, nuclear weapons, and all other complex war machines, how does Pakistan NOT have the ability to make turbofans for jet aircraft engines? All Pakistan needs is a ToT, that's all. With a ToT, you can expect Pakistan to be churning out WS-13a's like sausages. As a matter of fact, any country with a ToT will have little difficulty in assembling and producing that product.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

The JF-17 program was so useless for the PRC. They developed it, devoted much brainpower and resources, and paid for half of it, and all they get is a fighter they won't even use. Essentially, all they did was develop a fighter for Pakistan. Maybe they gained some technical experience and technology and are more skilled now, but that would be all. Pakistan, on the other hand, gains a new fighter superior to anything they have, plus they gain all the new tech that they hever had before.

[PiSigma]

FC-1 is not entirely useless to china, china still needs something very cheap and can be mass produced fast to replace the J-7s for border patrol roles. J-10/J-11/su-30s are more for elite units. and J-xx won't be out for a long time.

there's no reason to doubt pakistan's industrial capacity. they have proven themselves multiple times to be able to build advanced and technically challenging military hardware. sure they are not building M1A2s or F-22s, but how many nations can do that?? 1, and that's USA. but if we are looking at production of something of a bit less quality, pakistan is already in the club. if pakistan dind't have the ability to produce her own weapons and had to import everything, india won't be so annoyed with pakistan all the time.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

FC-1 is not entirely useless to china, china still needs something very cheap and can be mass produced fast to replace the J-7s for border patrol roles. J-10/J-11/su-30s are more for elite units. and J-xx won't be out for a long time.

there's no reason to doubt pakistan's industrial capacity. they have proven themselves multiple times to be able to build advanced and technically challenging military hardware. sure they are not building M1A2s or F-22s, but how many nations can do that?? 1, and that's USA. but if we are looking at production of something of a bit less quality, pakistan is already in the club. if pakistan dind't have the ability to produce her own weapons and had to import everything, india won't be so annoyed with pakistan all the time.

Well, I think they prefer the J-10 over the FC-1. The cost per unit of the FC-1 is from 14million-20million, while the J-10 is 20-25million per unit. There is not a significant difference in cost between the two aircraft.

[crazyinsane105]

FriedRiceNSpice, cool it!!! One more outburst like that and I'll have to report you!

The FC-1 is not useless at all to the Chinese. It was China that first called on Pakistan to go and build the FC-1 project and guess what, both nations have learned much from this project. The FC-1 is one of the few fighters I have seen that has DSI intakes. Also, if the Chinese thought the project is useless, then I don't think the PLAAF would continue the project. Why is it that the prototypes are continuing to improve if the Chinese see no benefit to it?

[skyhawk2005]

because it's mainly for Pakistans AF. All of the changes are being pushed by Pakistan.

Chinese will use it to export to other countries, but whether it will be inducted is questionable.

And you are wrong if you think Pakistan can manufacture a turbofan. That is total bull. The metallurgical industrial capability is simply not existing in Pakistan, and a TOT will not build such an industrial capability over night. It took China years and years to succeed.

Airframe? yes. Avionics? yes. radar? perhaps. But no way can Pakistan who has not even made a turbojet engine make a turbofan.

And as TPHuang has quoted, Pakistan will not be getting the WS13 TOT. Only airframe, avionics.

[MIGleader]

because it's mainly for Pakistans AF. All of the changes are being pushed by Pakistan.

Chinese will use it to export to other countries, but whether it will be inducted is questionable.

And you are wrong if you think Pakistan can manufacture a turbofan. That is total bull. The metallurgical industrial capability is simply not existing in Pakistan, and a TOT will not build such an industrial capability over night. It took China years and years to succeed.

Airframe? yes. Avionics? yes. radar? perhaps. But no way can Pakistan who has not even made a turbojet engine make a turbofan.

And as TPHuang has quoted, Pakistan will not be getting the WS13 TOT. Only airframe, avionics.

so they can simply import the ws-13as. im sure pakistan is advanced enough to maintain and repair them, correct?

[tphuang]

so they can simply import the ws-13as. im sure pakistan is advanced enough to maintain and repair them, correct?
That's a interesting though. Maintaining shouldn't be hard to teach. As for repair, I guess one question is whether or not China can repair the AL-31F engines. From the constant resupply of AL-31F (I bet the Russians make more money off China on the engines than anything else), it looks like China does not have the capability to repair them. If Pakistan isn't given a ToT on WS-13A, then I would have a hard time believe that they would have the ability to do so (remember, the project was begun without a guarantee that WS-13A would be available. Although the WS-A project does look much more promissing with its recent successes).

Actually, I do have one big question for the Pakistani members. It was mentionned that the first 50 JF-17s will be using Chinese avionics and radar. Is that first 50 PAF JF-17s or first 50 JF-17s overall? Also, what's the status on Grifo-S7? I just hear all this speculative numbers on that radar, but has the radar itself reached its own specs?

[skyhawk2005]

FC-1 is not entirely useless to china, china still needs something very cheap and can be mass produced fast to replace the J-7s for border patrol roles. J-10/J-11/su-30s are more for elite units. and J-xx won't be out for a long time.

there's no reason to doubt pakistan's industrial capacity. they have proven themselves multiple times to be able to build advanced and technically challenging military hardware. sure they are not building M1A2s or F-22s, but how many nations can do that?? 1, and that's USA. but if we are looking at production of something of a bit less quality, pakistan is already in the club. if pakistan dind't have the ability to produce her own weapons and had to import everything, india won't be so annoyed with pakistan all the time.

The JF17 is a suitable plane for a smaller country like Pakistan, but not for a huge country the size of China. It doesn't have the range to be effective. True, J7s don't have the range either, but that's why China uses them as point interceptors and are basically obsolete. The FC1 would be slightly better but still, its range and payload is limited.

The "low-end" fighter for China is it's J10, and the "high-end" fighter is it's J11s. Trying to replace J7s with FC1s is like replacing obsolete planes with another obsolete plane. It's a waste of time.

And these improvements to the JF17 will drive its price up, reducing the main argument for the JF17 in the first place: a cheap alternative to the costlier J10.

PLAAF doesn't want the FC1 for a very good reason. Instead, they should mass produce J11s and J10s. Using domestic subsystems like WS10A will lower cost so that it will be cheap.

[MIGleader]

The JF17 is a suitable plane for a smaller country like Pakistan, but not for a huge country the size of China. It doesn't have the range to be effective. True, J7s don't have the range either, but that's why China uses them as point interceptors and are basically obsolete. The FC1 would be slightly better but still, its range and payload is limited.

The "low-end" fighter for China is it's J10, and the "high-end" fighter is it's J11s. Trying to replace J7s with FC1s is like replacing obsolete planes with another obsolete plane. It's a waste of time.

And these improvements to the JF17 will drive its price up, reducing the main argument for the JF17 in the first place: a cheap alternative to the costlier J10.

PLAAF doesn't want the FC1 for a very good reason. Instead, they should mass produce J11s and J10s. Using domestic subsystems like WS10A will lower cost so that it will be cheap.
can it be? am i actually agreeing with skyhawk?:D
to add to your point, the plaaf is modernizing for the future! a third generation aircraft will have no combat value in the plaaf, ezpecially when planes such as j-11b, j-10c, and j-xx come out. the fc-1 would merely suck up money from production of these planes.

as for interception, china has 240 j-8s, which have been upgraded nicely, and still have soem potential.

[tphuang]

This is according to some pretty respectable posters on war-sky. dddaaa1976 has to be one of the biggest expert on Chinese military engines:

同意dddaaa1976的说法，WS13基本就是中推核心机+RD33的低压段（修正），其有几个衍生型 号，其中最值得关注的就是推比9的，这很可能就是共军中四的过渡动力（土共的海军就指望着这玩意料~~~） ，推比8的中推是可以发展到推比9/10的。按照贵州的官方说法是在08年完成WS13的设计定型。 �丠,I"笮
垦O阤�娝d
关于推比10的中推，前段时间报导过了，核心机点火成功，624搞的。即便按照现在所谓的“超常规发展 ”的思路，即便是有毛子的P2000打的底子，个人推测，能在2015年实现型号设计定型就很不错了， 但就目前的进度看，比推比10的大推的进度要快点。

Basically, WS13 is expected to be certified in 2008. We can use WS13 to develop engines that are of T/W ratio of 9 and 10.

As for T/W ratio of 10 engine projects, in the medium size category (so, like RD-33 and GE-404), it will probably finish in 2015 at the earliest. The heavy engine (like AL-31) will probably finish later.

[adeptitus]

The JF17 is a suitable plane for a smaller country like Pakistan, but not for a huge country the size of China. It doesn't have the range to be effective. True, J7s don't have the range either, but that's why China uses them as point interceptors and are basically obsolete. The FC1 would be slightly better but still, its range and payload is limited.


I'd agree that the PLAAF should concentrate on fewer, better aircraft types, but it is possible to upgrade the JF-17 for extended range. You could enlarge the plane (i.e. Mirage-4000) or add conformal fuel tanks like the F-16I. I think the Israeli model stores 450 gallons each?
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f-16i/f-16i6.html
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f-16i/f-16i7.html

As for payload, I think there's a trend for increased payload and capabiltiy with later revisions of the same aircraft. For an example, compare any F-16C/D to the earlier F-16A block 5. The later F-16 models had structural reinforcements on the wings to allow bigger and heavier payload, along with engine upgrades for greater power.

[skyhawk2005]

I'd agree that the PLAAF should concentrate on fewer, better aircraft types, but it is possible to upgrade the JF-17 for extended range. You could enlarge the plane (i.e. Mirage-4000) or add conformal fuel tanks like the F-16I. I think the Israeli model stores 450 gallons each?
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f-16i/f-16i6.html
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f-16i/f-16i7.html

As for payload, I think there's a trend for increased payload and capabiltiy with later revisions of the same aircraft. For an example, compare any F-16C/D to the earlier F-16A block 5. The later F-16 models had structural reinforcements on the wings to allow bigger and heavier payload, along with engine upgrades for greater power.

And why should the Chinese do that when they have the longer ranged heavier J10?

The JF17 is mainly a pakistani project (although designed and manufactured by China), and an export vehicle for China.

Chinese do not want nor need the JF17/FC1.

[FreeAsia2000]

Migleader is so full of *can't say on this forum but I think all you guys know what I'm thinking*

The JF-17 program was so useless for the PRC. They developed it, devoted much brainpower and resources, and paid for half of it, and all they get is a fighter they won't even use. Essentially, all they did was develop a fighter for Pakistan. Maybe they gained some technical experience and technology and are more skilled now, but that would be all. Pakistan, on the other hand, gains a new fighter superior to anything they have, plus they gain all the new tech that they hever had before.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sorry you don't believe technical experience and technology are worth anything?

Attacking another member whether by cursing or otherwise is in bad taste. Unless your're a politician. :)

Both Pakistan and China know that Pakistan WILL NOT be basing it's airforce around a core of US aircraft in the future. That's the reason why Pakistan felt able to turn down the F-16's. The JF-17 is China's version of selling Pakistan software. Pakistan then needs Chinese help for future upgrades

Incidentally does anybody here believe that Missiles will overtake Aircraft in the future ? Everything seems to point that way. The only use I can see for aircraft in the future is as standing missile platforms

[adeptitus]

And why should the Chinese do that when they have the longer ranged heavier J10?


I agree that the PLAAF is better off with fewer aircraft types for supply/logistics issues, but not beacuse the JF-17 is that much useless or inferior.

Why does everyone assume that the JF-17 has very short range? The aircraft has published operational range of 1,352 km. This is not an unreasonable estimate assuming that it's carrying 2 external fuel tanks under its wing-root pylons, along with 4x AAM's but not anything heavier.

The JF-17 and ROCAF's IDF are similiar in size and weight. The IDF, with 2x 275 gallon (1,041 liter) drop tanks, has an operational range of 1,100 km. Both the JF-17 and the IDF are built as point defense fighters, but just as the IDF can be modified to carry anti-ship missiles, so can the JF-17 be upgraded for ground/sea strike.

If you add conformal fuel tanks to either the JF-17 or the IDF, it'd extend their operational range even further. The only question here is if there's a good reason to do so. If the PRC intends to use the JF-17 as the replacement for J-7 exports, then it'd make sense to make the JF-17 more appealing with many options to suit the customer's needs.