Chavez Says He May Send US-Made Fighter Jets to Cuba, China

[New2u]

Chavez Says He May Send US-Made Fighter Jets to Cuba, China
VoA
Wed, 2 Nov 2005, 13:25

" Venezuela's president says his government may give its U.S.-made fighter jets to Cuba and China, after accusing the United States of breaking an agreement to provide jet parts.

President Hugo Chavez Tuesday said the United States is refusing to sell parts to Caracas to maintain its fleet of U.S.-made F-16 fighters. Mr. Chavez said his nation can do whatever it wants with the jets - even give them to Cuba and China.

The comments were made at a ceremony announcing Venezuela's plans to launch a telecommunications satellite with China's help.

A Defense Department official speaking on condition of anonymity says there has been no communication with Caracas about giving away the jets. The official also said U.S. laws strictly govern third party transfers.

Venezuela bought two-dozen F-16 jets from the United States in the 1980s."


If china gets the F-16..will this improve the PLAA? or the F-16 are too old for any use?

[GreatYuran]

it is my knowledge that the F-16 venezuela currently have are too old of any combat use to the chinese. Current models of the J-11 and Su-27 as well as the J-10 are far more advanced than the early F-16A (maybe Bs as well?). But if the chinese do aquire the F-16 it will offer some guidance for the aerospace industry in china.

In conlusion, the F-16 venezuela has will probably not interest the Chinese in a military scale, but they might be interested in procuring it as a study subject.

[Chairman Hu]

I wonder why he would do such a move, itz worthless in modern designs, even modern F-16s have improved, unless the F-16s are above Block 40 mark (setting my scale on the same as the F-2 for Japan), the Jian-10 is a success, and THAT thing is better than the version A due to itz avionics and design, China needed the F-16A like 15 years ago when the LAVI concept was sold to China, it woulda helped since China was just starting and would of had guidance so the first 2 proto wouldnt of crashed...

i still doubt they can be block40+

[MIGleader]

guys, i see the word "give" in their. that means chavez may send the planes to china...FOR FREE!!! in exchange for some kind of partnership or future military deals. why turn down 20 FREE f-16s? china will be able to make some spares, like iran, and keep the f-16s running, maybe improve them. then it should intimidate taiwan by holding excercises with the su-27 and f-16s, and have the su-27s win. taiwan will be scared to death

[PiSigma]

china with F-16s would give a boost to PLAAF. not from a hardware standpoint, but from tactics and strategy. there are 4000 F-16s in the world today. and several potential rivals use them, or something based on them. like japan, taiwan, india. when china get 1 free F-16 from pakistan or something, they can only take it apart and study it. but if they have 20 free F-16s, they can get top pilots to fly them and have mock battles with J-10s and su-27s just to develop better tactics against F-16s. it will still be many years before JSF comes into service for Japan and taiwan won't be getting anything new soon. so to train against actual F-16s would definitely be good for the PLAAF. of course these F-16 are not as good as the ones japan or taiwan have, but at least it sets the bar.

[MIGleader]

training against f-16s is very helpful, seeing how its become the american mig-21, and is still ver sought after.
i think venezuela and malaysia which have both been slapped by a u.s embargo would do anything for revenge.
lets see...some possibilities if china actually acquired 20 or so f-16s.
firsts step: learn how to make spares to keep em running. china should already know the layout of an f-16 from pakistan, andchina makes parts easily.
2: have inspectors and pilots examine and study the aircraft, then put them in flying condition.
3. train pilots to fly them
4. hire mikoyan or sukoi to make upgrades to the aircraft, like add a new radar or avioinics.
5. put them to good use...

[tphuang]

in terms of studying from F-16, there probably isn't much we can do with a F-16A (B is just the two seated version). Since J-10 is based on Lavi, which is based on F-16. I personally don't see much use in them, but I guess using them to simulate combat scenarios against Taiwan isn't a bad thing.

[PiSigma]

it would be interesting to see how simulated battles turn out between F-16s and Su-27s or J-10s. although J-10 might have some roots in the F-16, it's still significantly more advanced than F-16A/B. when china does her own mock battles with F-16s, they will know exactly how to improve their tactics vs F-16s. getting info from another country like pakistan could also be missing some data that is very important. of course if china can learn to produce spare parts for it, they can keep pakistan's F-16s running too, providing a small cash flow.

[MIGleader]

it would be interesting to see how simulated battles turn out between F-16s and Su-27s or J-10s. although J-10 might have some roots in the F-16, it's still significantly more advanced than F-16A/B. when china does her own mock battles with F-16s, they will know exactly how to improve their tactics vs F-16s. getting info from another country like pakistan could also be missing some data that is very important. of course if china can learn to produce spare parts for it, they can keep pakistan's F-16s running too, providing a small cash flow.

why would pakistan need china to maintain its f-16s? pak can hoard spares. however, other countriess like malaysia who have been B#$$ch slapped by a u.s embargo would need those parts. what can china do with them? if put to military use, they would be a good boost to the plaaf.

[PiSigma]

just because pakistan is in favor now doesn't mean they'll always be in favor. although the forseeable future right now is that USA will need them, but who knows in 10 or 15 years. I don't know even why malaysia can't get parts from US, haven't read any news for awhile. look at venezuela, a few years ago, it was very close to the US, but right now, they couldn't be more apart. but then again, if chavez is not president anymore, US will warm up to venezuela again.

20 F-16A/B won't help PLAAF much in terms of firepower or projection. they are already too old to be any good to the PLAAF, of course they are better than J-7s, but the extra logistics that go with it just to use them is not worth it. it's better to just keep them around for a short time to study them.

[walter]

Musharaf has announced the F-16 deal will be put on hold since quake victims have priorty:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051104/ap_on_re_as/south_asia_quake;_ylt=Ag4sn_7NqwAtu6Ugh.rNaNSs0NUE ;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b3JuZGZhBHNlYwM3MjE-

[chopsticks]

guys, i see the word "give" in their. that means chavez may send the planes to china...FOR FREE!!! in exchange for some kind of partnership or future military deals. why turn down 20 FREE f-16s? china will be able to make some spares, like iran, and keep the f-16s running, maybe improve them. then it should intimidate taiwan by holding excercises with the su-27 and f-16s, and have the su-27s win. taiwan will be scared to death


lol that was funny!!! :D


maybe China can scrape off the radar absorbing paint and put it on the su-30... lol kidding... :D

[EternalVigil]

No offense guys but the primative block that the troublemaker chavez has is is junk in US air force standards. F-16 is being phased out here for the JSF anyhow.

[MIGleader]

No offense guys but the primative block that the troublemaker chavez has is is junk in US air force standards. F-16 is being phased out here for the JSF anyhow.

that doesnt mean china cant put the planes to good use. china can always put them to good use. china could make a huge program and revers engineer the planes. then you would end up with the "chengdu f-16", fitted with some chinese radars,weapons and avionics. such an airccraft would be an immediate sucess on the international markt. being a highly proven u.s aircraft now offered for a fraction of the price.

[MIGleader]

Well I guess we can always send cruise missles to Chavez town to destroy them before they are shipped off. :nono:

and when they miss, chavez starts creating a huge fuss. and america doesnt want chavez pissed, not unless they want oil to be $200 a gallon

[EternalVigil]

We buy most of our oil from Canada,and the Saudis. We can always buy more from Canada thus improving the over all economy of North America or buy more from mexico.Also, the Euro market is already saturated with F-16 and F-18 so only third world dictatorships would probably want the cheap rip off version.

[MIGleader]

We buy most of our oil from Canada,and the Saudis. We can always buy more from Canada thus improving the over all economy of North America or buy more from mexico.Also, the Euro market is already saturated with F-16 and F-18 so only third world dictatorships would probably want the cheap rip off version.

when katrina hit, gas rose to 6$ in some places. and the guld coast is a relativly minor source of oil compared to venezuela.

who wants to buy an f-16 for only 15 mil? everone!!!!
africa
southeast asia
south america

[EternalVigil]

They are useless without our tech like a turkey shoot to US and EU fighters. Oh well I guess one can dream eh?

[peace_lover]

well , i am frm China , i read the news in the newspaper yesterday , so i can tell u guys something in a chinese eyes .

the usage of F-16 for china are (1) it is helpful for china to study the manufacturing technology of usa combat fighters (2) we can take F-16 as the assuming rival , so as to find ways to defeat F-16 of Taiwan (3) the engines of F-16 is the most useful for china , since our engine-manufacturing is far behind western technology

try to understand my words , guys .:china:

[EternalVigil]

Actually the J-10 is at parity or better than the F-16. The 16 is just a widly used fighter and people still think its good because of that. It is a good mud mover for ground attack missions for being single engine but it dies everytime to F-15's and has zero chance vs an F22 or eurofighter.

when katrina hit, gas rose to 6$ in some places. and the guld coast is a relativly minor source of oil compared to venezuela.

who wants to buy an f-16 for only 15 mil? everone!!!!
africa
southeast asia
south america



Thats because refining capacity was hurt by them we had plenty of crude but could'nt refine it fast enough. :/ We need more refining capacity here and worldwide.

[chinawhite]

@ EternalVigil

**-Actually the J-10 is at parity or better than the F-16. The 16 is just a widly used fighter and people still think its good because of that. -**

that is a very vague way of looking at it.

The J-10 from my opinion is a better plane than the F-16 aerodynamically but in electrics the J-10 is up to block 40-50. The F-16 has recieved many up-grades from its earlier design.

The J-10 is a un-tested plane but is very promising. 100 J-10s are btter than that other junk china has.(J-7, J-8 and a smaller extent J-6)

**-It is a good mud mover for ground attack missions for being single engine but it dies everytime to F-15's and has zero chance vs an F22 or eurofighter.-**

What block are you talking about?

The block 60-70 F-16 has better radar than the F-15A/B/C.

Its radar is a lot more superior than the EF radar. Its radar is a AESA while the eurofighter is using a pulse doppler multimode radar. which doesn't even come close to the performance of a AESA

Regards,

Chinawhite

[tphuang]

@ EternalVigil

**-Actually the J-10 is at parity or better than the F-16. The 16 is just a widly used fighter and people still think its good because of that. -**

that is a very vague way of looking at it.

The J-10 from my opinion is a better plane than the F-16 aerodynamically but in electrics the J-10 is up to block 40-50. The F-16 has recieved many up-grades from its earlier design.

The J-10 is a un-tested plane but is very promising. 100 J-10s are btter than that other junk china has.(J-7, J-8 and a smaller extent J-6)

**-It is a good mud mover for ground attack missions for being single engine but it dies everytime to F-15's and has zero chance vs an F22 or eurofighter.-**

What block are you talking about?

The block 60-70 F-16 has better radar than the F-15A/B/C.

Its radar is a lot more superior than the EF radar. Its radar is a AESA while the eurofighter is using a pulse doppler multimode radar. which doesn't even come close to the performance of a AESA

Regards,

Chinawhite
block 60 of F-16 really is something special. I'd match it up against any flanker and eagle. Block 50/52 are very good too, but it depends on the systems that come with it.

As for engine, the engine on J-10 is far better than some of the engines used on earlier F-16. With the 3d tvc on the current AL-31FN, it's engine is at least at the level of block 50/52 F-16s. only 1000 less in thrust, but TVC more than makes up for it. WS-10A would probably be at the level of F110-GE-132 (block 60 engine). Again, less thrust, but has 3D tvc.

[chopsticks]

maybe China could use the f-16 as undercover air spys, u know, mingle amongst Taiwanese f-16 if there is a conflict (hopefully not), then when they're not looking, shoot them in the back!!! hahahhahhha kidding... :)

[MIGleader]

block 60 of F-16 really is something special. I'd match it up against any flanker and eagle. Block 50/52 are very good too, but it depends on the systems that come with it.

As for engine, the engine on J-10 is far better than some of the engines used on earlier F-16. With the 3d tvc on the current AL-31FN, it's engine is at least at the level of block 50/52 F-16s. only 1000 less in thrust, but TVC more than makes up for it. WS-10A would probably be at the level of F110-GE-132 (block 60 engine). Again, less thrust, but has 3D tvc.

since when did ws-10a have 3d tvc?

as for an f-16s usefulness, if it is one of the most widelly used planes in the world, THen what could be wrong with training against it!?!!

[crazyinsane105]

China is not going to take the F-16's. It will ruin China's image greatly. Second of all, who knows what impact it might have when the EU decides to lift the arms ban. Remember what happened when China passed the anti-seccession law? The EU decided not to lift the arms ban. Also, what technological advantages will the PLAAF get out of this? Pakistan is getting new F-16's plus it is rumored that Pakistan had China inspect their old ones years ago. I doubt that China will take the offer.

[MIGleader]

China is not going to take the F-16's. It will ruin China's image greatly. Second of all, who knows what impact it might have when the EU decides to lift the arms ban. Remember what happened when China passed the anti-seccession law? The EU decided not to lift the arms ban. Also, what technological advantages will the PLAAF get out of this? Pakistan is getting new F-16's plus it is rumored that Pakistan had China inspect their old ones years ago. I doubt that China will take the offer.

good point. but than who would buy it? cuba wants mig-29s. any other nation under embargo can get migs. too. any nation not under embargo can get new, block 40 f-16s.

[Sczepan]

good point. but than who would buy it? cuba wants mig-29s. any other nation under embargo can get migs. too. any nation not under embargo can get new, block 40 f-16s.what about Iran?

[MIGleader]

what about Iran?

why would iran want second hand f-16s? irans goal is not to be operating a fleet former u.s planes which they cannot maintain. they already have f-14s and mig-29s. and they are developing a new stealth plane according to issa.

[Chairman Hu]

They grounded their F-14 planes, according to globalsecurity

The use of the F-16 is probably as ealier mentioned, use them in joint exercise AFTER they are upgraded to block 40 level, and China FINDS a way to destroy them (either tactic or better systems) and this will send a msg to president chen that he cant outspend chairman hu and if China can destroy block 40 classes, there is NO way Taiwan can stand a chance, itz not like China is gonna blow them to pieces, they can be excellent training partners

[MIGleader]

They grounded their F-14 planes, according to globalsecurity

The use of the F-16 is probably as ealier mentioned, use them in joint exercise AFTER they are upgraded to block 40 level, and China FINDS a way to destroy them (either tactic or better systems) and this will send a msg to president chen that he cant outspend chairman hu and if China can destroy block 40 classes, there is NO way Taiwan can stand a chance, itz not like China is gonna blow them to pieces, they can be excellent training partners

according to global securities, iran has 25 f-14s. and may have some grounded. issa says iran has around 50, and is making parts and weapons for them. clearly the iranisans are smarter than chavez. and i would listen to issa over global securities any day.

[Chairman Hu]

nice... so iran has cracked the american missile codes? why doesnt Iran just spend 5 years building a fighter plane LIKE the tomcat but with minor to major upgrade/redesign and use Iranian missile codes instead? i mean, theres about 50 of them around, and they can be all taken apart and building a reverse engineered carbon copied with upgrades is simple and that can provide something for a 4th generation fighter... i think they can pull it off

[MIGleader]

nice... so iran has cracked the american missile codes? why doesnt Iran just spend 5 years building a fighter plane LIKE the tomcat but with minor to major upgrade/redesign and use Iranian missile codes instead? i mean, theres about 50 of them around, and they can be all taken apart and building a reverse engineered carbon copied with upgrades is simple and that can provide something for a 4th generation fighter... i think they can pull it off

revers engineering a plane as complicated as the tomcat is not as simple as you say...its very complex and time consuming. iran plans to eventually retire its tomcats anyways.

[chakos]

Id assume that they already are going to use the best bits out of the Tomcat on that new fighter they are working on anyway.. They wouldnt use the whole thing, they have not got any use for a fighter as large as the Tomcat that they could only produce in small amounts.

As for the F-16's, of course the Chinese have use for them. Im sure you guys have heard of the U.S. Navy Top Gun advanced combat manouvering course.

China would be able to use the F-16's to form an agressor squadron or two, therefore giving their elite pilots an opportunity to train up on the same aircraft that their adversaries would be using.

This is an expensive operation but the results have shown themselves worthwile in the U.S. version so i see no reason why they would have any issues themselves.

As well as this they could invite other pilots from friendly countries such as Iran, North Korea and Pakistan (although Pakistan already has F-16's) and any other country in order to give them some first rate training against U.S. fighters.

[muyang523]

I am pretty sure that Venezula F-16 are Updated F-16A/B. The F-16s have been updated to accomodate the AIM-9L Sidewinder missile. Standard armament for air support missions is 6x Mk.82 or 2x Mk.84, 4 AIM-9L Sidewinder and one centerline drop tank. CBU's and rockets are also available in the FAV inventory. I also heard that they updated them with percision guided weapons, possibily from the Isrealies.

China can use these F-16s as Training aircraft, replace some early version of the J-7/J-8 with it, and they can also study the F-16.

And about the Oil from Venezula. Canada gets their oil from themselve. It produces 3.3 million barrels per day and only use 2.2 million barrels per day. The Americans get it from the Saudis.

[Su-27 Pilot]

No offense guys but the primative block that the troublemaker chavez has is is junk in US air force standards. F-16 is being phased out here for the JSF anyhow.

What about the F-18 for the Navy ? JSF can replace that too ?
Hows a Mig-29C compare to a Super hornet ??

[MIGleader]

What about the F-18 for the Navy ? JSF can replace that too ?
Hows a Mig-29C compare to a Super hornet ??

dont compare em. the mig-29c hasnt seen naval service yet. on pare its equal or about equal, but lets not discuss it yet untill india begins using its mig-29cs

[tphuang]

What about the F-18 for the Navy ? JSF can replace that too ?
Hows a Mig-29C compare to a Super hornet ??
depends on the avionics on each plane. apg-79 would beat the radar on mig-29m

[vincelee]

buying more oil from Canada? What the hell is that guy smoking?

ever heard of spare capacity? The US is very much dependent on oil, and even a 10% shortage relative to today's supply will halt any moment out of the slight recession.

[chensanity]

like some of you guys have said, i doubt china would take the f16's but i suppose if they do, it would be better then some of the old mig 21's they are still running:)

[Gollevainen]

Well There isent any realistic reason for China to operate few F-16. They would only suffer from same proplems that forces Venezuela to consider their sale. Hower, I wouldnt be so arrogant and declare that China dont need them as technology demonstrators, cos they are old block version. They still are potent four generation fighters and Lot could be learned from them. Thought some of Chinese possible opponent operates newer models of F-16, they still share some of the key elements of their follow ups and could be used to simulate Taiwanese, Korean and Japanese air element in similar manner that NATO has used german MiG-29s. Their service life wouldnt be long hower, couse we cannot just assume that Pakistan would defy US so stubidly by retransfering some of their own F-16 components to china. Also, it would be economically too expensive to reserve engineer totally differnt technology to few dozen aircrafts.

Thougth there is also the possipiliy to try to reverse engineer some of their technology into new chinese technology, like the F-100 engine and radar system.

[MIGleader]

the radar wouild probably be the most valueable part of the system. chinese radars arnt so good, and a good look at an f-16s radar would help out alot. while china couldnt reverse engineer the whole plane, it might learn how to built most parts, allowing it to sell the parts to other nations hit by a us embargo.

[SABRE]

the radar wouild probably be the most valueable part of the system. chinese radars arnt so good, and a good look at an f-16s radar would help out alot. while china couldnt reverse engineer the whole plane, it might learn how to built most parts, allowing it to sell the parts to other nations hit by a us embargo.

Two things come to my mind, Radars & Engines. Those Pret & Whiteny engines wheather old or new are pretty great machines.

On the other hand Chaves is just saying things just to piss of US.

[tphuang]

I'm still doubtful of how much help the engines and radars can be. the ones on block 10/15 should have much less thrust than AL-31F and WS-10A. Also, 1473 should be much better than APG-66, which has like a 50-60 KM detection range.

[MIGleader]

I'm still doubtful of how much help the engines and radars can be. the ones on block 10/15 should have much less thrust than AL-31F and WS-10A. Also, 1473 should be much better than APG-66, which has like a 50-60 KM detection range.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/type45.htm
its not the best radar, but it offers valuable technology components for the future development of chinese radars. no one saud copy it.

i dont know much about the engines...like the radar, they might provide some technology for future development, but their value is far less than the radar.
chinese design is already ahead of the f-16, so the airframe will have little use.