PLAN's answer to ROCNs Kidd purchase....

[lazzydigger]

I start a thread in Aviation Forum about ASHm. In the discussions, we moved to the missiles on Kidd and souvrmenny. Seen ROCN will receive 4 Kidd in total, it just balance the number of 052b and Souvrmenny for the time been.

I'd like to start a discussion on these DDGs as they have similar purpose and weapon setups. Souvrmenny is a good ship, but some how, I felt kidd is more balanced and capable ship then it. Especially the ASW, ROCN has always enjoyed a slight edge. What are the electronics suite U.S. fitted on the Kidds? And what missile comes with it?

Just try kick the conversation off.

Lazzy

[Gollevainen]

Sorry but i had to change the tittle. I also get bad feelings of these comparison threads but hope the tittle change schatters that "bad karma"....

[MIGleader]

I start a thread in Aviation Forum about ASHm. In the discussions, we moved to the missiles on Kidd and souvrmenny. Seen ROCN will receive 4 Kidd in total, it just balance the number of 052b and Souvrmenny for the time been.

I'd like to start a discussion on these DDGs as they have similar purpose and weapon setups. Souvrmenny is a good ship, but some how, I felt kidd is more balanced and capable ship then it. Especially the ASW, ROCN has always enjoyed a slight edge. What are the electronics suite U.S. fitted on the Kidds? And what missile comes with it?
Just try kick the conversation off.

Lazzy

four kidds does not balance the chines navy. are u forgetting china has the 52cs, 52s, 51bs, 51c under building, 2 sov em under building, ...


the taiwanese have had an edge in asw, but no where close to the u.s's. and chinas diesels are very lethal. chinas lack of decent asw may be attributed to taiwans incapble sub force or 4 subs, two that are 50 years old.

we know the kidds dont have aegis, but must have a fairly good system in place of it. it has 52 standards and 8 harpoons.

since chia can protect it sovs with fighters and 52cs, and there is a lack of taiwanese subs to attack a sov, a sov would hav and advantage over the kidd with its moskits.

as for chinas answer to taiwans kidds...more frigate, more destroyers, more subs, and maybe a carrier. chen has to realize someday he better use taiwans money more wisely, cause hes never going to be able to outspend beijing.

[tphuang]

Well, Kidd at least gives Taiwan a little more punch to their surface ship. I would say that if you are talking about old Kidd vs New 956EM, I would take the latter in a real battle.

[MIGleader]

why are we comparing a kidd the a sov? a sov is not chinas most advanced ship, and idoubt china will order more after the em deliveries are finished.
how bout 52c??
48 hq-9 vs 52 standard...this is going to be a bit hard. ill go with the standard

8 yj-85 vs 8 harpoon...yj-85 hands down, better range and speed. it can dive to the waterline just like the harpoon aswell

2 type 730 vs two phalanx...ill go with the type 730 assuming it has a performance similar to golkeeper/satan/samos

asw...tough. two mk 32 and mk 46 triple launchers vs two yu-7 triple launchers and 4 18 barrel mrls...this all depends if the towed sonar is going to be fitted or not.

comand and control...to little info

[tphuang]

It also depends on the radar and the control system on Kidd's ASMs? Does anyone know how many targets it can engage concurrently?

[swimmerXC]

dont forget the ECM on the KIDD is probably better and if the US comes and helps it can link it's missiles so the burkes can fire them.. but what about those kongos?

[Sea Dog]

Well, Kidd at least gives Taiwan a little more punch to their surface ship. I would say that if you are talking about old Kidd vs New 956EM, I would take the latter in a real battle.

I would agree with you here. Kidd DDG's will not match the offensive punch in the 956EM Sovremenny. But with Harpoon and SM-2 for defense, Kidd is no pushover in the ASuW role either. With the control system, the Kidd has 2 illuminators. Plus it can use the Combined Antenna system (SPG-60) used to train the gun, to guide SM-2's. I'm not sure what upgrade they will be using in these Kidd's, so I'm not sure how many Standards they will be able to direct at once. But I'm pretty sure it's at least 8. That's just an educated guess based on it's specs from globalsecurity.

At any rate, Taiwan's navy got a big boost in it's surface navy. Kidd will bring more capabilities especially in the ASW role, and in providing air control over the strait.

[lazzydigger]

Looks like the discussion Kicks off well. the reason I put 052B and souvrmenny against the Kidd is because they have the similar characters wheres 052C and 115 are used differently.

From my point of view. Standard II is very capable. PLAAF and PLAN's fighters attackers will have to think twice when it facing 200 standard II missle in total. Standard II's range is much further than what Gizzily can offer too.

Moskit is probably the better missile on paper, but Harpoon is battle proven.

Over all, it boasts ROCN considerably with just enough capability to make the whole Fleet just a edge below PLAN. It is the balance game played by U.S. alot. " I will give u what will make you feel good, but there are better things, so you will come back for more.

Never the less, Kidd is not a push over for sure. Just hope those conscripts know how to use it properly.

Lazzy

[Sea Dog]

Looks like the discussion Kicks off well. the reason I put 052B and souvrmenny against the Kidd is because they have the similar characters wheres 052C and 115 are used differently.

From my point of view. Standard II is very capable. PLAAF and PLAN's fighters attackers will have to think twice when it facing 200 standard II missle in total. Standard II's range is much further than what Gizzily can offer too.

Moskit is probably the better missile on paper, but Harpoon is battle proven.

Over all, it boasts ROCN considerably with just enough capability to make the whole Fleet just a edge below PLAN. It is the balance game played by U.S. alot. " I will give u what will make you feel good, but there are better things, so you will come back for more.

Never the less, Kidd is not a push over for sure. Just hope those conscripts know how to use it properly.

Lazzy

Harpoon does have some advantages in it's employment over Moskit, but Moskit has an advantage in speed and has a few tricks up its sleeves also. I believe these design characteristics in Moskit should not be ignored. But overall, yes. What really gives the Kidd lethality in the ship-to-ship warfare would be it's command and control and naval synergies. Combine this with the effective SM-2's and Harpoons and you've got some powerhouse surface action forces. But I'm not sure 2 of these ships would be enough to overcome 4 956EM's. Even 2 Sovremennys would be overwhelming without other adequate naval support. But add in U.S. surface forces and Kongos, that's a different story. Like someone said, Kidd SM-2's can be integrated into the AEGIS system. But right now, it looks like 2 Kidds will provide some balance in the strait.

[IDonT]

I believe Taiwan will use the KIDDs as a sort of mobile sea base SAM to deny the PLAAF air superioriy over the straights. Major anti shipping work will be done by the Airforce.

[vincelee]

you'll need a bit more than 56 SM-2s to do that. By parking in the strait, you bring yourself into the range of shore anti ship batteries, and we all know how big these things are.

[Lavi]

Hmm... I suppose the idea behind the Kidd's could be to achieve better ASW, the air force is able to attack surface units and enemy aircrafts, what's left is a true blue water ASW platform with longer staying power than an Orion.

[IDonT]

the airforce will be busy with the plaaf, the kidds will be busy with kilos and yuans. the chinese transport slip through.


Its not that simple. I don't think the PLA general would risk slow moving and vulnerable transport in a hot environment. Plus, you forgot about the land base anti-ship missiles that Taiwan has.

[vincelee]

enough to gain air parity and escorting transports? We are not just talking about OpFor fighters here, we have OpFor ground based AD systems. Just how many wild weasel capable aircrafts can actually get across a SAM/figher shield and suppress/destroy enemy ground assets.

[tphuang]

I believe Taiwan will use the KIDDs as a sort of mobile sea base SAM to deny the PLAAF air superioriy over the straights. Major anti shipping work will be done by the Airforce.
a concentrated attack of YJ-83 AShMs by 3 regiments of JH-7A should be enough to take them down. I really doubt KIDD alone can deny PLAAF air superiority.

[Sea Dog]

a concentrated attack of YJ-83 AShMs by 3 regiments of JH-7A should be enough to take them down. I really doubt KIDD alone can deny PLAAF air superiority.

I have the same doubts tphuang. PLAAF has too many assets. But I don't believe these Kidds are meant to gain air superiority. Rather they are intended to bolster Taiwans ASW capabilities and to disrupt PLAAF air operations and PLAN's naval deployments. How successful they would be is up for analysis. I myself can see that China can throw alot of weaponry their way, and these Kidds wouldn't likely survive for very long. I think the hope is that they could survive and disrupt long enough, so Taiwan's allies could have time to come to help. Not only that, but they probably hope to put parts of PLAN's invasion scenario in doubt. China itself doesn't know how Taiwan intends to use these new naval ships.

[Gollevainen]

Ok Miggy now i have to intervene...instead of making these oneliners one per minute, perhaps you should make single reply whit more leght and most of all contest...as you are aware a sort of martial law is decleared and under martial law anything can happen...get my point? Also you should read the annouchment on top of every forum and act as it is said in there...(no harm of reading the previous one's when you are up there...exspecially those about oneliner posts)

[MIGleader]

Ok Miggy now i have to intervene...instead of making these oneliners one per minute, perhaps you should make single reply whit more leght and most of all contest...as you are aware a sort of martial law is decleared and under martial law anything can happen...get my point? Also you should read the annouchment on top of every forum and act as it is said in there...(no harm of reading the previous one's when you are up there...exspecially those about oneliner posts)

ok, after peaceful reunion, the plan gets 4 kidd class destroyers. and a few dozen f-16s. so wht should it do with them? sell them? use them?

back on topic...
the point is, what are the weaknesses of a kidd? it may have good asw abilities to detect, but nothing to kill. a a yuan could ambush it...

[swimmerXC]

ok, after peaceful reunion, the plan gets 4 kidd class destroyers. and a few dozen f-16s. so wht should it do with them? sell them? use them?

back on topic...
the point is, what are the weaknesses of a kidd? it may have good asw abilities to detect, but nothing to kill. a a yuan could ambush it...

take the tech and sell the Kidd to their original buyer -> IRAN!!! :)
take the F-16 tech and give it to -> PAKISTAN!!! :)
well how long do you think the KIDD can buy time? PLAN will probably send in Kilos or Yuans first to paint the targets and follow them, then attack them once the invasion starts

[DPRKUnderground]

The Kidds will cause some problems for the PLANAF. There will be 4 Kidds in Taiwan's inventory which can provide cover for Frigates. Taiwan has the Lafayette Class and Oliver Perry Class, which are some of the best in the world!

[MIGleader]

The Kidds will cause some problems for the PLANAF. There will be 4 Kidds in Taiwan's inventory which can provide cover for Frigates. Taiwan has the Lafayette Class and Oliver Perry Class, which are some of the best in the world!
coug cough yeah right. the perrys are better suited to patrol, and the lafeyettes dont even have french sensors and weapons. apparently france wants to plz china.

however capable they are, they are still no match for a ddg.

[swimmerXC]

coug cough yeah right. the perrys are better suited to patrol, and the lafeyettes dont even have french sensors and weapons. apparently france wants to plz china.

however capable they are, they are still no match for a ddg.

ROC navy is not the probelm right now, it's the USN and "JMSDF"....
you got to think of a way to counter those kongos.....

[MIGleader]

I think we can safely remove the SD from JMSDF, lol.

Yeah, the kongos would create huge problems.

to sink em, china cuts economic ties with japa. then japan desperately sells its kongos to china to save its own ecenomic ass.

[swimmerXC]

to sink em, china cuts economic ties with japa. then japan desperately sells its kongos to china to save its own ecenomic ass.

cut the economic **** wether you like it or not the economy of Japan-US-China are all tied together, if one falls the rest will go will fall too

[In4ser]

arent they planning on building 4 more advanced kongos?

[tphuang]

actually, DDG 177 just launched recently. This thing is a bad mother.

At least two Improved Kongo-class DDGs are planned, with displacement of 7,700 to 10,000 tons. The new class of Guided Missile Destroyer will be equipped with the latest version of Aegis system and will have a hanger that is capable ot storing 2 helicopters. Construction will start as soon as 2002. Currently there is the possibility that at least four more Kongo Class DDG will be constructed, these four will be able to house at least one SH-60J ASW helicopter, much like the USN Burke Flight IIA's.


Standard Displacement 7,700ton
Boundary Dimension Length: 170m
Width: 21.0m
Depth: -m
Draft: -m
Boat Shape
Main Engine LM-2500 Gas turbine x4;
COGAG, 2 shafts propulsion
Horsepower 100,000ps
Maximum Speed 30kt
Crew 300
Combat System Aegis system
Gun OTO 127mm 54cal rapid fire gun
5-inch 62cal rapid fire gun (Mk45 Mod4) x1
20mm Close-In Weapons System (CIWS) x2
Missile Launcher VLS / VLA (front=64cell, back=32cell)
Anti-aircraft Armament Standard SAM
Anti-warship Armament SSM Harpoon
Anti-submarine Armament ASROC SUM
Torpedo Armament Triple torpedo tubes x2

[MIGleader]

construction will start as early as 2002? doesnt mean that they should already be finished by now?
damn that thing is powerful. but it seems like a complete copy of the arleigh burke.

[tphuang]

construction will start as early as 2002? doesnt mean that they should already be finished by now?
damn that thing is powerful. but it seems like a complete copy of the arleigh burke.
yeah, this is from a while back, DDG 177 is already out, making it the most potent ship amongst the Asian navies. Now, if only China comes up with something as good for 052D or something.

[swimmerXC]

actually, DDG 177 just launched recently. This thing is a bad mother.

At least two Improved Kongo-class DDGs are planned, with displacement of 7,700 to 10,000 tons. The new class of Guided Missile Destroyer will be equipped with the latest version of Aegis system and will have a hanger that is capable ot storing 2 helicopters. Construction will start as soon as 2002. Currently there is the possibility that at least four more Kongo Class DDG will be constructed, these four will be able to house at least one SH-60J ASW helicopter, much like the USN Burke Flight IIA's.


Standard Displacement 7,700ton
Boundary Dimension Length: 170m
Width: 21.0m
Depth: -m
Draft: -m
Boat Shape
Main Engine LM-2500 Gas turbine x4;
COGAG, 2 shafts propulsion
Horsepower 100,000ps
Maximum Speed 30kt
Crew 300
Combat System Aegis system
Gun OTO 127mm 54cal rapid fire gun
5-inch 62cal rapid fire gun (Mk45 Mod4) x1
20mm Close-In Weapons System (CIWS) x2
Missile Launcher VLS / VLA (front=64cell, back=32cell)
Anti-aircraft Armament Standard SAM
Anti-warship Armament SSM Harpoon
Anti-submarine Armament ASROC SUM
Torpedo Armament Triple torpedo tubes x2


the little kongos are not a problem it's these babies... :nono:
http://img314.imageshack.us/img314/6169/cbg6mm.jpg
http://img314.imageshack.us/img314/5926/cbga4pn.jpg

[MIGleader]

are those carriers from summer surge 04?
mann we are off topic. what haapened to the kidds?

[Su-27 Pilot]

2 sov em under building, ...


.

Completely missed that one. Two more sovre under construction ? WOW Thankz for the update !!!!!